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Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

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Alan Lambert

Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

I could use a little advice

My present setup is;
KX3 > KPA100 (w/ ATU) > MFJ Balanced line tuner > ladder line fed
80m Inv 'V'

I run this with the ATU disabled and then manually tune. Obviously
this is time consuming and makes band switching a pain so I am
considering removing the MFJ from the chain and start using the ATU.
Also I plan to add a KPA/KAT500 in the near future and my MJF tops out
at 300w so I has to go anway.

The questions are...

1) Should I do it? or will I see a significant performance decrease?

2) If I do - How should I make the ladder to coax conversion? I
think I need a "tuner balun"?

73
Alan
KN4BBC
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Alan Lambert

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

MORE Info

As is I can work 80-10. Some bands are better then others but I can
work them all with an SWR in the 1:1 to 1.3:1 range. The fed line
is 450 window. The dipole is center fed.

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Alan Lambert <[hidden email]> wrote:

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David Bunte

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

Alan -

I am pleased with results I have gotten with units from BALUN DESIGNS.
Their 1161 & 1171 models are possible choices. I know some folks would
rather spend less and build their own, but if that is not your preference,
then look at these models.

Best of luck.

73 de Dave - K9FN

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Alan Lambert <[hidden email]> wrote:

> MORE Info
>
> As is I can work 80-10. Some bands are better then others but I can
> work them all with an SWR in the 1:1 to 1.3:1 range. The fed line
> is 450 window. The dipole is center fed.
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Alan Lambert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > I could use a little advice
> >
> > My present setup is;
> > KX3 > KPA100 (w/ ATU) > MFJ Balanced line tuner > ladder line fed
> > 80m Inv 'V'
> >
> > I run this with the ATU disabled and then manually tune. Obviously
> > this is time consuming and makes band switching a pain so I am
> > considering removing the MFJ from the chain and start using the ATU.
> > Also I plan to add a KPA/KAT500 in the near future and my MJF tops out
> > at 300w so I has to go anway.
> >
> >
> > The questions are...
> >
> > 1) Should I do it? or will I see a significant performance decrease?
> >
> > 2) If I do - How should I make the ladder to coax conversion? I
> > think I need a "tuner balun"?
> >
> > 73
> > Alan
> > KN4BBC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

I've used balanced line systems and tuners and baluns for years. In
general the 135 ft center fed wire with your choice of balanced line, I
use the vinyl covered 450 line from The Wireman, will work quite
well.    I bring the line from the feed point of the antenna all the way
to the operating position where it terminated into the 1:1 current
balun. Balanced line of this type is not near as difficult to use as
many will allude.   Just use common sense. Be sure to use lightning
protection on the line before it enters the house.

Regarding baluns, keep in mind that one is not "matching the line" i.e.
450 ohms but the overall load Z.   Hence the better choice is the 1:1
current balun and not the 4:1 as many seem to believe.    Also,
understand that the design and rating of baluns is based on a matched
operating condition on both sides of the balun. The 135 ft center fed
wire with balanced feed is in most cases far from matched. Thus the
balun should be rated for much higher power than one would ever expect
to run. In my case, for legal limit power, my balun is rated at
10KW.    I do use BALUN DESIGNS products for my applications. Be sure
you select a balun which is designed to be used with a tuner as the
voltage / current ratings will be different than those for matched
applications.

What is a matched application for a balun?. A good example is a folded
dipole made of and fed with balanced line. Typically the folded dipole
Z is about 300 ohms regardless of line impedance. However, due to
reasonable proximity to the earth, the impedance is more like 200 to 250
ohms.   Hence a 4:1 balun is the ideal choice providing an unbalanced
feed to the transmitter of about 50 ohms.

Here is a good source for real world applications and performance of
baluns. http://www.dj0ip.de/balun-stuff/

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/12/2018 9:29 AM, David Bunte wrote:

> Alan -
>
> I am pleased with results I have gotten with units from BALUN DESIGNS.
> Their 1161 & 1171 models are possible choices. I know some folks would
> rather spend less and build their own, but if that is not your preference,
> then look at these models.
>
> Best of luck.
>
> 73 de Dave - K9FN
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Alan Lambert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> MORE Info
>>
>> As is I can work 80-10. Some bands are better then others but I can
>> work them all with an SWR in the 1:1 to 1.3:1 range. The fed line
>> is 450 window. The dipole is center fed.
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Alan Lambert <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>> I could use a little advice
>>>
>>> My present setup is;
>>> KX3 > KPA100 (w/ ATU) > MFJ Balanced line tuner > ladder line fed
>>> 80m Inv 'V'
>>>
>>> I run this with the ATU disabled and then manually tune. Obviously
>>> this is time consuming and makes band switching a pain so I am
>>> considering removing the MFJ from the chain and start using the ATU.
>>> Also I plan to add a KPA/KAT500 in the near future and my MJF tops out
>>> at 300w so I has to go anway.
>>>
>>>
>>> The questions are...
>>>
>>> 1) Should I do it? or will I see a significant performance decrease?
>>>
>>> 2) If I do - How should I make the ladder to coax conversion? I
>>> think I need a "tuner balun"?
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Alan
>>> KN4BBC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>>
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>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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Barry K3NDM

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by Alan Lambert

Alan,
Good questions. The Elecraft tuners can not be beat for what they
can tune, so the only real issue is how to transition to coax from open
wire/ladder line. Probably, the easiest is to use a 4:1 current balun to
make the transition. I would go with one that is rated at least 3KW. Why
so heavy? The answer is core heating when running with a high SWR; this
is more of a design "safety" issue. And, the current balun will stay
balanced better than a voltage balun when presented a high SWR.

I use a variant of this here in my station, meaning the antenna is
slightly different. It works great with no problems and I can use my
antenna 80-10 meters. DXengineering and Balun Designs make good baluns
as I'm sure there are others, but I know these work.

One last thought. Make the transition as close to where your egress
point is. If you have a fairly lengthy transmission line run, you will
be using the lowest loss line for as far as you can go and then
transition. I would use a very low loss cable from the balun to the
tuner, something like LMR-400.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Alan Lambert" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: 2/12/2018 9:26:40 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

>I could use a little advice
>
>My present setup is;
>KX3 > KPA100 (w/ ATU) > MFJ Balanced line tuner > ladder line fed
>80m Inv 'V'
>
>I run this with the ATU disabled and then manually tune. Obviously
>this is time consuming and makes band switching a pain so I am
>considering removing the MFJ from the chain and start using the ATU.
>Also I plan to add a KPA/KAT500 in the near future and my MJF tops out
>at 300w so I has to go anway.
>
>
>The questions are...
>
>1) Should I do it? or will I see a significant performance decrease?
>
>2) If I do - How should I make the ladder to coax conversion? I
>think I need a "tuner balun"?
>
>73
>Alan
>KN4BBC
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

John W2XS

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by Alan Lambert

I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The biggest
benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so the
QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on my
N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and not
have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m doublet
fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).

My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the rig as
short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not that
long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was surprised at
how high they were.

I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB vs.
the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
category!)

I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but that
might be a future experiment.

73, John W2XS

--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by David Bunte

I have not seen any of their products, but a post on their website
indicates that they do not understand how common mode chokes work. The
result is that they sell stuff that won't burn up, but it won't do
anything useful either.

73, Jim K9YC

On 2/12/2018 7:29 AM, David Bunte wrote:
> I am pleased with results I have gotten with units from BALUN DESIGNS.

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Chris Hallinan

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by John W2XS

I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
doublet.

It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting, as
I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.

Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?

73
Chris - K1AY
Punta Gorda, FL

On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
> biggest
> benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so the
> QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on my
> N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and not
> have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m doublet
> fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
>
> My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the rig as
> short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
> likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not
> that
> long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was surprised at
> how high they were.
>
> I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB vs.
> the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
> kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
> category!)
>
> I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but that
> might be a future experiment.
>
> 73, John W2XS
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

--
Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
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Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

Chris;

Add or remove about 6 ft of the open wire line. See if this helps the
17M issue.

I personally don't like the idea of using a 4:1 balun and much prefer a
1:1 current balun. With the 4:1, without measuring the Z on the coax
side, it may be the Z presented to the tuner is very low and thus
outside the range of the tuner. Additionally, it is most likely with
almost every ATU, the greatest loss occurs when the Z is low to very
low. Hence my reason for using a 1:1 and not a 4:1.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/13/2018 7:55 AM, Chris Hallinan wrote:

> I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
> mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
> doublet.
>
> It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
> 17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
> I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
> range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting, as
> I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
> minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>
> Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?
>
> 73
> Chris - K1AY
> Punta Gorda, FL
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
>> biggest
>> benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so the
>> QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on my
>> N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and not
>> have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m doublet
>> fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
>>
>> My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the rig as
>> short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
>> likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not
>> that
>> long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was surprised at
>> how high they were.
>>
>> I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB vs.
>> the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
>> kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
>> category!)
>>
>> I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but that
>> might be a future experiment.
>>
>> 73, John W2XS
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>

Chris Hallinan

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

Thanks, Bob. I'll do just that when I get a chance. And I might just try
the 1:1 also! I have an Array Solutions analyzer, been meaning to scan it
to see exactly what the tuner sees. All of this requires a ladder and some
creative juggling of tools/laptop etc. ;)

73
Chris

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Bob McGraw K4TAX <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Chris;
>
> Add or remove about 6 ft of the open wire line. See if this helps the 17M
> issue.
>
> I personally don't like the idea of using a 4:1 balun and much prefer a
> 1:1 current balun. With the 4:1, without measuring the Z on the coax side,
> it may be the Z presented to the tuner is very low and thus outside the
> range of the tuner. Additionally, it is most likely with almost every
> ATU, the greatest loss occurs when the Z is low to very low. Hence my
> reason for using a 1:1 and not a 4:1.
>
> 73
>
> Bob, K4TAX
>
>
>
> On 2/13/2018 7:55 AM, Chris Hallinan wrote:
>
>> I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
>> mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
>> doublet.
>>
>> It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
>> 17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
>> I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
>> range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting,
>> as
>> I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
>> minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>>
>> Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?
>>
>> 73
>> Chris - K1AY
>> Punta Gorda, FL
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
>>> biggest
>>> benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so
>>> the
>>> QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on
>>> my
>>> N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and
>>> not
>>> have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m
>>> doublet
>>> fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
>>>
>>> My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the rig
>>> as
>>> short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
>>> likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not
>>> that
>>> long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was surprised
>>> at
>>> how high they were.
>>>
>>> I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB
>>> vs.
>>> the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
>>> kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
>>> category!)
>>>
>>> I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but that
>>> might be a future experiment.
>>>
>>> 73, John W2XS
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Don Wilhelm

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by Chris Hallinan

Chris,

Try a 1:1 balun instead of the 4:1. You are matching the impedance seen
at the shack end of the feedline, and that can vary from very low to
very high.
The impedance you have to match is NOT the characteristic impedance of
the feedline. The 600 ohm line simply acts as an impedance transformer.
The only time you will see a 600 ohm impedance at the shack end of that
feedline is when the far end is terminated by 600 ohms, and I suggest
that is not true of the feedpoint impedance at the antenna.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/13/2018 8:55 AM, Chris Hallinan wrote:

Chris Hallinan

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

Thanks, Don,

Yes I understand the basics - the doublet is not typically used in a
"matched" configuration, thus the need for the tuner. If I understand
correctly, it can present from very low to very high impedances to the
tuner. I will try a 1:1 and/or adding some wire length. Also, as I
mentioned in my previous post, I've been wanting to get up on the ladder
and scan it with my Array Solutions antenna analyzer to see what it really
presents to the tuner. That may help me understand what I need to do.

73,
Chris - K1AY

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Try a 1:1 balun instead of the 4:1. You are matching the impedance seen
> at the shack end of the feedline, and that can vary from very low to very
> high.
> The impedance you have to match is NOT the characteristic impedance of the
> feedline. The 600 ohm line simply acts as an impedance transformer.
> The only time you will see a 600 ohm impedance at the shack end of that
> feedline is when the far end is terminated by 600 ohms, and I suggest that
> is not true of the feedpoint impedance at the antenna.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> On 2/13/2018 8:55 AM, Chris Hallinan wrote:
>
>> I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
>> mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
>> doublet.
>>
>> It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
>> 17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
>> I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
>> range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting,
>> as
>> I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
>> minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>>
>

John W2XS

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by Chris Hallinan

Have you tried adding some additional length to the 600 ohm feedline? I
originally couldn't perfectly match 30 meters with the Johnson Matchbox and
added about 15 or 18 feet IIRC. That brought 30m into range and didn't mess
up the other bands too much. Since your worst band is 17m, you might need
only a few feet (5 or 10 is a swag). 73, John W2XS

--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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w4tg

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by Chris Hallinan

I was thinking of a similar remote setup, wondering which remote autotuner
is recommended?
Thanks,
Frank w4tg

On Feb 13, 2018 8:56 AM, "Chris Hallinan" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
> mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
> doublet.
>
> It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
> 17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
> I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
> range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting, as
> I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
> minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>
> Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?
>
> 73
> Chris - K1AY
> Punta Gorda, FL
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
> > biggest
> > benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so
> the
> > QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on
> my
> > N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and
> not
> > have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m
> doublet
> > fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
> >
> > My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the rig
> as
> > short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
> > likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not
> > that
> > long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was surprised
> at
> > how high they were.
> >
> > I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB
> vs.
> > the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
> > kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
> > category!)
> >
> > I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but that
> > might be a future experiment.
> >
> > 73, John W2XS
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Barry K3NDM

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by Chris Hallinan

Chris,
If all else fails, cheat. Probably the very simplest thing you can
do is mount an 17 meter element in parallel to the 80 meter element. It
will be cheaper and no less efficient.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

------ Original Message ------
From: "Chris Hallinan" <[hidden email]>
To: "John W2XS" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "<[hidden email]>" <[hidden email]>
Sent: 2/13/2018 8:55:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

>I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
>mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
>doublet.
>
>It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
>17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high.
>Nothing
>I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
>range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote
>mounting, as
>I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
>minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>
>Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?
>
>73
>Chris - K1AY
>Punta Gorda, FL
>
>
>On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]>
>wrote:
>
>>I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
>>biggest
>>benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so
>>the
>>QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through
>>on my
>>N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency
>>and not
>>have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m
>>doublet
>>fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
>>
>>My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the
>>rig as
>>short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
>>likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article
>>not
>>that
>>long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was
>>surprised at
>>how high they were.
>>
>>I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB
>>vs.
>>the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
>>kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
>>category!)
>>
>>I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but
>>that
>>might be a future experiment.
>>
>>73, John W2XS
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>>______________________________________________________________
>>Elecraft mailing list
>>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>
>
>--
>Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>Message delivered to [hidden email]

Chris Hallinan

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

In reply to this post by w4tg

I have been using MFJ tuners outside (MFJ-927) on a 43' vertical in
southwest Florida for many years. The only complaint I have is that they
don't get along with thunderstorms. I've probably gone through half dozen
of these over the years. However, it's worth it to me because when they
work, they work well. Outside in Florida sun and summer rains and salt air
is probably one of the most hostile environments for any electronics. And
I don't protect them in any way so I'm amazed they work as long as they
do. The only mod I make is to replace the ground lug with stainless steel
hardware.

When there is a threat of lightning, I ground the antenna (I have a large
wing nut for that) and disconnect the tuner. If I forget, I might have to
buy a new one ;)

I love the idea of remote tuners - avoids the losses associated with coax
and high SWR.

73,

Chris

On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Frank Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I was thinking of a similar remote setup, wondering which remote autotuner
> is recommended?
> Thanks,
> Frank w4tg
>
> On Feb 13, 2018 8:56 AM, "Chris Hallinan" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
>> mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
>> doublet.
>>
>> It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
>> 17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
>> I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
>> range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting,
>> as
>> I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
>> minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>>
>> Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?
>>
>> 73
>> Chris - K1AY
>> Punta Gorda, FL
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
>> > biggest
>> > benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so
>> the
>> > QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on
>> my
>> > N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and
>> not
>> > have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m
>> doublet
>> > fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
>> >
>> > My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the
>> rig as
>> > short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
>> > likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not
>> > that
>> > long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was
>> surprised at
>> > how high they were.
>> >
>> > I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB
>> vs.
>> > the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
>> > kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
>> > category!)
>> >
>> > I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but
>> that
>> > might be a future experiment.
>> >
>> > 73, John W2XS
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> > ______________________________________________________________
>> > Elecraft mailing list
>> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> >
>> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: Suggestions needed - antenna to tuner

Why not ground the antenna and feed it as a Unipole? Most AM BC
stations are doing that these days. They also use a remote tuner,
although it is usually a fixed network as they only use one frequency.
That way the reflected power on the line is nil.

73

Bob, K4TAX

On 2/13/2018 12:29 PM, Chris Hallinan wrote:

> I have been using MFJ tuners outside (MFJ-927) on a 43' vertical in
> southwest Florida for many years. The only complaint I have is that they
> don't get along with thunderstorms. I've probably gone through half dozen
> of these over the years. However, it's worth it to me because when they
> work, they work well. Outside in Florida sun and summer rains and salt air
> is probably one of the most hostile environments for any electronics. And
> I don't protect them in any way so I'm amazed they work as long as they
> do. The only mod I make is to replace the ground lug with stainless steel
> hardware.
>
> When there is a threat of lightning, I ground the antenna (I have a large
> wing nut for that) and disconnect the tuner. If I forget, I might have to
> buy a new one ;)
>
> I love the idea of remote tuners - avoids the losses associated with coax
> and high SWR.
>
> 73,
>
> Chris
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 10:55 AM, Frank Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I was thinking of a similar remote setup, wondering which remote autotuner
>> is recommended?
>> Thanks,
>> Frank w4tg
>>
>> On Feb 13, 2018 8:56 AM, "Chris Hallinan" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a very similar setup. K3 -> KPA500 -> MFJ 994BRT 600W autotuner
>>> mounted remote -> Balun Designs 4:1 -> 600 Ohm open wire line to 80 m
>>> doublet.
>>>
>>> It works fantastic on 80-20, but will not tune better than about 2:1 on
>>> 17. I cannot use the KPA500 on 17 because the SWR is too high. Nothing
>>> I've tried works. I'm wondering if it is simply the tuning
>>> range/resolution of the MFJ-994BRT? I like the idea of remote mounting,
>>> as
>>> I have only a couple feet of coax between the tuner and the balun, thus
>>> minimizing SWR-related feedline loss.
>>>
>>> Any suggestions for how to get it to tune on 17?
>>>
>>> 73
>>> Chris - K1AY
>>> Punta Gorda, FL
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 12:16 PM, John W2XS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I replaced my Johnson Matchbox with a Balun Designs tuner balun. The
>>>> biggest
>>>> benefit is that the K3 ATU remembers the settings from band to band so
>>> the
>>>> QSY is very rapid. I love watching the DX spots come rolling through on
>>> my
>>>> N3FJP logging program and clicking on them to QSY to that frequency and
>>> not
>>>> have to tune up again. I use it on 80 through 6 meters with an 80m
>>> doublet
>>>> fed with KW ladder line (300 ohm).
>>>>
>>>> My recommendation is to keep the piece of coax from the balun to the
>>> rig as
>>>> short as possible. This is to minimize loss since that line will most
>>>> likely be highly mis-matched on most bands. There was a QST article not
>>>> that
>>>> long ago which detailed the losses in that situation and I was
>>> surprised at
>>>> how high they were.
>>>>
>>>> I once had an MFJ balanced RF Ammeter and made measurements of the JMB
>>> vs.
>>>> the balun and they compared favorably. DJ0IP (referenced earlier) has
>>>> kindly put those measurements on his website. (This is in the FWIW
>>>> category!)
>>>>
>>>> I have not tried to substitute the tuner balun with another type but
>>> that
>>>> might be a future experiment.
>>>>
>>>> 73, John W2XS
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Life is like Linux - it never stands still.
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>
>