Elecraft

TS-990

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bs usb

Re: TS-990

My first experience with radios that require computer support was with a
Pegasus. I just had to have one.

Three months later I just had to sell it because I realized that
reliability was compromised when more than one piece of gear was needed
for a task that used to be handled by a single piece of gear alone.

Not only that, but I could not effectively use my computer for other
tasks because it was needed to run the radio.

I still use a computer along with my radio for ham related activities
but I sleep better knowing I can still engage in ham related activities
when my computer gets sick.

Computers tend to get sick more often than radios. At least that has
been my experience.

Besides,I don't want to give up complete control of my radio to a computer.

Scott Manthe wrote:

> The difference, of course, is that a computer is not REQUIRED to use a
> K3. The Flex will not function at all without the computer, so the
> comments about the Flex being dependent on computer hardware are
> hardly "nonsense."
>
> 73,
> Scott, N9AA
>
>
> On 3/10/15 10:45 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> First a disclaimer: I don't own a Flex radio (and it is a radio)
>> The closest I've come is using an LP Pan on the i-f output of a K3,
>> which I do own.
>>
>> But this argument is simply nonsense. If the radio breaks---they
>> actually do you know---you're (note spelling) off the air too.
>>
>> And try as I might, I can't see Internet spots on my K3, nor can I
>> use it to keep my banking records, write email, do antenna modeling,
>> etc. For this I still need a computer. And believe it or not, that
>> same computer is connected to my K3 and I would be lost without it.
>> I don't want to go back to my BC-342 and crystal-controlled 6L6,
>> which some still think are the only "real" radios. Time marches
>> on...try to keep up.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>>
>>
>
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: TS-990

Administrator

Interesting topic, but due to the large number of posts, and in the interest of keeping list volume reasonable for all, let's end this thread today by 2000z. ( 1 PM PDT).

Also, please delete as much copied text from prior posts when replying to a thread. 1-2 sentences is more than enough to retain context in most cases.

73,
Eric
List Moderator and sometime COO.
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Mar 10, 2015, at 11:09 AM, bs usb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My first experience with radios that require computer support was with a Pegasus. I just had to have one.
>
> Three months later I just had to sell it because I realized that reliability was compromised when more than one piece of gear was needed for a task that used to be handled by a single piece of gear alone.
>
> <snip>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Flex VS K3

In reply to this post by Kevin Stover

This so-called minimum was state of the art 8-10 years ago. Modern
computers would have no problem handling the Flex software. The past
few years have brought us System-on-a-Chip computers that only require a
handful of parts - vastly less than a typical transceiver. I can't
imagine someone investing the serious amount of money a Flex gets and
then running it on an antiquated computer.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 3/10/15 7:04 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:
> Minimum, Windows Vista SP2, Dual Core 64 bit processor, Video card 256
> MB memory, Direct X 10 or higher ,Net 4.0 or higher. Those are
> minimums. You can probably run SmartSDR with that but if it's like
> most software it will run like crap on it's minimum requirements.
>

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kevinr@coho.net

Re: Flex VS K3

I just bought a new box with these specs:
8 core 4 GHz AMD processor, 16 GB RAM (in a 64 bit system), 4 GB of
video memory, a small SSD with a 1 TB storage drive. I put Windows 7 on
it because it is stable and I like it. I have no idea about Vista, I
have never used it.

This new box runs in conjunction with a "headless" Ubuntu 14 server for
network attached storage and the repository for Subversion. My old
computer will soon be set up the same way for even more attached
storage. With most of the files off loaded to the servers my CPU rarely
gets to 50% usage and then only when I run multiple instantiations of a
variety of my simulations. There is no lag now which is greatly
appreciated.

So state of the art has changed quite a great deal from your minimum
standard. This describes my ten year old machine except for the fact it
had dual video cards to power four monitors.
73,
Kevin. KD5ONS

On 3/10/2015 2:05 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:

> This so-called minimum was state of the art 8-10 years ago. Modern
> computers would have no problem handling the Flex software. The past
> few years have brought us System-on-a-Chip computers that only require
> a handful of parts - vastly less than a typical transceiver. I can't
> imagine someone investing the serious amount of money a Flex gets and
> then running it on an antiquated computer.
>
> 73, Doug -- K0DXV
>
> On 3/10/15 7:04 AM, Kevin Stover wrote:
>> Minimum, Windows Vista SP2, Dual Core 64 bit processor, Video card
>> 256 MB memory, Direct X 10 or higher ,Net 4.0 or higher. Those are
>> minimums. You can probably run SmartSDR with that but if it's like
>> most software it will run like crap on it's minimum requirements.
>>
>
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Tony Estep

Re: Flex VS K3

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 4:05 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...investing the serious amount of money a Flex gets and then running it
> on an antiquated computer.
>
> =============
One of the various things that conspired to kill the previous version of
the Flex software was the proliferation of cloud-related software on newer
machines. A Microsoft Skydrive, or a Google update program, or one of a
large number of other stuff, would periodically issue an interrupt that
would take the CPU's attention away from the Flex data stream, introducing
latency and/or crashes. The first design was a recipe for obsolescence.

Besides, if you wanted PSDR, a K3 with LP-Pan and NaP3 has a superset of
the capabilities of a Flex 5000, and none of the endless series of bugs
that plagued the Flex version of PSDR.

The new Flex stuff brings the data path inside the radio, so that the
dependency on the OS is reduced, and it probably works okay if you want to
try to operate your station with the mouse. But at least IMHO, a DXer
working split in a big CW pile without knobs is at an overwhelming
disadvantage.

73, Tony KT0NY
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Kevin Stover

Re: TS-990

In reply to this post by Wes (N7WS)

You can't see Internet spots or balance your checkbook or read the
Elecraft reflector and run that "radio" at the same time. I guarantee
it. So....you get to buy a top of the line high performance PC to run
your radio.
I find it interesting that nowhere that I've seen does Flex give a
minimum requirement for om-board memory.

I had a Polycom salesman try that while selling us an H.323 video
conferencing system.
I couldn't get the man to tell me exactly how much of my T1 connection
to home office in Green Bay was going to be used for our daily
teleconference. Finally got a ridiculous number out of him (256 Kb/s).
The truth was 3X that much, half my T1 while trying to send real time
data to GB.
Now I always multiple minimum retirements by three....four if it's
Microsoft, Cisco, or Polycom.

Windows 7 and Vista need 4G of memory to run well. There is a difference
between running well and running.
How much memory does SmartSDR require to run well? I couldn't find it
but I couldn't spend an hour looking.
That number isn't a sales bullet point on the Flex website. Hmmmm, makes
me wonder.

Maybe it's just me.
After a long day of dealing with the machinations of MS, IBM, VM Ware,
Cisco, Barracuda, Dell and HP, all day along with 700 users who
sometimes I'm convinced are UN-trainable, All I want to do is lay my
hands on a radio, even though I know it's mostly firmware, and not
another keyboard.

On 3/10/2015 9:45 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:

> And try as I might, I can't see Internet spots on my K3, nor can I use
> it to keep my banking records, write email, do antenna modeling, etc.
> For this I still need a computer. And believe it or not, that same
> computer is connected to my K3 and I would be lost without it. I
> don't want to go back to my BC-342 and crystal-controlled 6L6, which
> some still think are the only "real" radios. Time marches on...try to
> keep up.
>
> Wes N7WS
>

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
ARRL
FISTS #11993
SKCC #215
NAQCC #3441

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: TS-990

Administrator

Ok - We are now well past the posted closing time for this thread, due to the large number of postings.

Thread is now closed.

73,

Eric
List moderator
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Mar 10, 2015, at 4:17 PM, Kevin Stover <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> You can't see Internet spots or balance your checkbook or read the Elecraft reflector and run that "radio" at the same time. I guarantee it. So....you get to buy a top of the line high performance PC to run your radio.
> I find it interesting that nowhere that I've seen does Flex give a minimum requirement for om-board memory.
>
> I had a Polycom salesman try that while selling us an H.323 video conferencing system.
> I couldn't get the man to tell me exactly how much of my T1 connection to home office in Green Bay was going to be used for our daily teleconference. Finally got a ridiculous number out of him (256 Kb/s).
> The truth was 3X that much, half my T1 while trying to send real time data to GB.
> Now I always multiple minimum retirements by three....four if it's Microsoft, Cisco, or Polycom.
>
> Windows 7 and Vista need 4G of memory to run well. There is a difference between running well and running.
> How much memory does SmartSDR require to run well? I couldn't find it but I couldn't spend an hour looking.
> That number isn't a sales bullet point on the Flex website. Hmmmm, makes me wonder.
>
> Maybe it's just me.
> After a long day of dealing with the machinations of MS, IBM, VM Ware, Cisco, Barracuda, Dell and HP, all day along with 700 users who sometimes I'm convinced are UN-trainable, All I want to do is lay my hands on a radio, even though I know it's mostly firmware, and not another keyboard.
>
>
>> On 3/10/2015 9:45 AM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> And try as I might, I can't see Internet spots on my K3, nor can I use it to keep my banking records, write email, do antenna modeling, etc. For this I still need a computer. And believe it or not, that same computer is connected to my K3 and I would be lost without it. I don't want to go back to my BC-342 and crystal-controlled 6L6, which some still think are the only "real" radios. Time marches on...try to keep up.
>>
>> Wes N7WS
>
>
> --
> R. Kevin Stover
> AC0H
> ARRL
> FISTS #11993
> SKCC #215
> NAQCC #3441
>
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: TS-990

In reply to this post by Kevin Stover

I am "old school". Yes, I have a 6 core AMD computer with 8GB of memory
dedicated to the ham station, but I do not use it a lot for rig control
- its main use right now is to give me a panadapter display, but that
part will soon be replaced by a P3.
I still paper log, and automated spots do not excite me - I can bring up
the spots on the computer and then dial the K3 to that frequency should
I be so inclined.
It causes me to think about what I am doing in the hamshack. Those hams
who arbitrarily click on spots do not excite me. I prefer to hear the
DX first rather than just transmitting without regard to others just
because a spot says there is something of interest at that frequency.
In other words, if you can't hear them, don't transmit - the ham bands
would be much more sane if everyone did likewise. Just my not so humble
opinion.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 3/10/2015 7:17 PM, Kevin Stover wrote:
> You can't see Internet spots or balance your checkbook or read the
> Elecraft reflector and run that "radio" at the same time. I guarantee
> it. So....you get to buy a top of the line high performance PC to run
> your radio.
> I find it interesting that nowhere that I've seen does Flex give a
> minimum requirement for om-board memory.
>

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Jim Brown-10

Computers In The Shack

On Tue,3/10/2015 4:35 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I am "old school". Yes, I have a 6 core AMD computer with 8GB of
> memory dedicated to the ham station, but I do not use it a lot for rig
> control - its main use right now is to give me a panadapter display,
> but that part will soon be replaced by a P3.
> I still paper log, and automated spots do not excite me - I can bring
> up the spots on the computer and then dial the K3 to that frequency
> should I be so inclined.

Since getting back on the air in 2003, I've always had a laptop in the
shack. It great at taking care of the routine stuff, like day to day
logging. With the push of a few buttons, I can upload my log to LOTW and
eQSL. When I enter a call, I can see vitals for previous QSOs if I want
them. When I hear a DX station (or see a spot), I can immediately see if
I "need" a QSO for some goal. LOTW and eQSL mean that I only need to
send cards to guys who really want a paper card. That sames me a LOT of
time. It also saves me a lot of time and money if I need confirmations
for awards.

All of that is without rig control, without digital operation, without
contesting, just logging and log-related stuff. I view the shack
computer as making my life easier, freeing up my time to play radio,
upgrade the antenna system and the station (or repair it), and so on.

73, Jim K9YC

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wb4jfi

Re: TS-990

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

My goodness!
So, now a Flex is nothing more than an expensive sound card?

I wonder what happens when the K3 CPU goes squirrely, or the FP LCD has an
issue. Or a software upload/upgrade causes the K3 to brick itself? Or a FP
switch/button/control goes bad? I've seen these issues on the reflectors
before, and just as bad as a computer problem. Maybe worse, as the K3
hardware is not necessarily off-the-shelf, and software source not
available. Elecraft does a GREAT job to offset these problems, but shipping
stuff across the country takes longer than going to the local Best
Buy/Staples/local computer store.

Hey Joe, you still watching NTSC television as well? Or is that black and
white KoolAid still in control?

I've got a K3/P3/SVGA, a KX3, a Flex 6700, an SDR-1000, an openHPSDR rig, an
SDR-IQ, an SDR Cube, a HiQSDR, an STM32SDR, and several SoftRocks. And an
FT-817. I like them ALL!

My main rig is the K3, it works really, really well. I LOVE IT! The KX3
sees portable operation. The Flex allows me to see multiple bands at once,
and/or more of one band than the K3/P3 does. The Flex 6x00 is also becoming
a much more integrated digital radio, thanks to keeping ALL the demod
sampling as digital, as it interfaces with FLDIGI, etc... programs. The K3
must still use analog audio interfacing, unless you use the internal
decoder/encoder. Couldn't one argue therefore that the K3 is only an analog
radio, based on this one weaklink? I am certainly NOT doing that, but it's
as ridiculous as saying the Flex is NOT a radio.

The Flex 6x00 series actually uses the newerSmartSDR software, that source
is not publicly available. The older PowerSDR did have its source code
available. Can you get the source code for the K3 or KX3? Not that I'd
ever want Elecraft to do that! NO!!!! But, that's another point that Flex
had.

With the new synth, Elecraft just proved that their already wonderful radio
CAN BE significantly improved. Congrats to them! Good Job! I love seeing
an improvement like that, regardless of the platform. Elecraft is paying
attention to both its hardware AND software/firmware.

I SEE NO REASON TO TRASH ONE TYPE OF RIG FOR ANOTHER. Those that disparage
one brand over another are likely insecure with their prior purchase
decisions. Over the last two decades or so, it was Yaesu vs Kenwood vs
Icom. At least now it's one SDR versus another. YES, the K3 IS generally
considered an SDR, even by the original K3 software engineer.

How about giving this product bashing a rest fellows? Implying a Flex is
not a radio is just going too far. It shows personal bias and
thick-headedness to the extreme.

And BTW, there's this new thing called "Cable TV", and some future stuff
called "streaming video" that may impact OTA TV. I'm keeping an eye on
these new technologies as well, even though I've spent over 30 years as a
broadcast TV engineer - and corporate engineering director, responsible for
only 23 OTA TV stations throughout the country (including during the DTV
transition). Before I saw the handwriting and retired.
73, Terry, WB4JFI (now N4TLF)

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 10:18 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] TS-990

> Flex makes a radio,

Correction - Flex makes a complex analog to digital and digital
to analog converter. The ADC/DAC is *not a radio* without all
the external computer hardware/software to control the ADC/DAC,
process the digital data and handle conversion back to audio for
the user. The computer hardware comes from any number of vendors
and much of the software (PowerSDR) has been public domain.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-03-10 9:50 AM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:

> I've had a Flex-1500, the Flex may be nice for some, but being tied to a
> PC is a huge shortcoming. It's so much easier (and quicker) to just grab a
> knob instead of having to use a mouse and keyboard.
>
> As for performance, The K3 is the First radio I would ever consider rating
> a 10.
> The real beauty of the K3 is the Company behind it; Flex makes a radio,
> Elecraft makes a Product Line. Being able to have all the various pieces
> work seamlessly is very slick.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: Kevin Stover <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 9:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] TS-990
>
> The plain and simple fact is that if you have a Flex you are dependent
> on the computer you are running.
> Computer breaks, and of course they do, your off the air. SIMPLE.
> I read the minimum requirements to run the 6000 series. Half of the PC's
> in use by Hams won't cut it.
>
> Minimum, Windows Vista SP2, Dual Core 64 bit processor, Video card 256
> MB memory, Direct X 10 or higher ,Net 4.0 or higher. Those are minimums.
> You can probably run SmartSDR with that but if it's like most software
> it will run like crap on it's minimum requirements.
>
> SDR's like the K3 aren't dependent on any other piece of hardware or
> software.
> You can run it and it will perform well without ever being hooked up to
> a PC.
>
> On 3/9/2015 1:20 PM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>
>> On 2015-03-09 12:23 PM, Jim Brown posted from Michelle, W5NYV:
>>> So, If you want to talk about what the best contesting rig is, then
>>> I think you have to consider radios in a more multidimensional manner
>>> than by just comparing the equivalent of horsepower. Of which, Flex
>>> clearly seems to win.
>>
>> That claim hides a major blind spot. Sherwood's test numbers show
>> that the K3 with the new synthesizer is every bit equivalent to the
>> Flex-6000 series when one considers noise floor (MDS) (weak signal
>> performance) and realizes that the Flex can not handle multiple very
>> strong signals without serious blocking and compromised dynamic range
>> due to A/D limiting.
>>
>> With the new synthesizer the K3 has a better MDS without a preamp than
>> the Flex with its preamp enabled. The measured difference without a
>> preamp on either unit is 18 dB! Even with a 20 dB preamp for the Flex
>> (which reduces the strong signal handling capability by 20 dB and could
>> be fatal with multiple strong signals), the Flex still has a 4 dB
>> higher MDS (less sensitive receiver) that the updated K3 with its
>> 10 dB preamp.
>>
>> So long as direct conversion SDRs have A/D limiting issues that occur
>> at real world signal levels (e.g. on 160 meters within a few miles of
>> 50 KW AM broadcast stations, on 40 meters in Europe with multiple
>> strong broadcast signals in the band, etc.) the Flex SDRs simply can
>> not be said to "win" any comparison of "horsepower" (and their user
>> interface sucks!).
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
>

wb4jfi

Re: TS-990

(Sorry Eric, I did not see your closing of this topic because I was typing
my response)

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 7:52 PM
To: Joe Subich, W4TV ; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] TS-990

My goodness!
So, now a Flex is nothing more than an expensive sound card?

I wonder what happens when the K3 CPU goes squirrely, or the FP LCD has an
issue. Or a software upload/upgrade causes the K3 to brick itself? Or a FP
switch/button/control goes bad? I've seen these issues on the reflectors
before, and just as bad as a computer problem. Maybe worse, as the K3
hardware is not necessarily off-the-shelf, and software source not
available. Elecraft does a GREAT job to offset these problems, but shipping
stuff across the country takes longer than going to the local Best
Buy/Staples/local computer store.

Hey Joe, you still watching NTSC television as well? Or is that black and
white KoolAid still in control?

I've got a K3/P3/SVGA, a KX3, a Flex 6700, an SDR-1000, an openHPSDR rig, an
SDR-IQ, an SDR Cube, a HiQSDR, an STM32SDR, and several SoftRocks. And an
FT-817. I like them ALL!

My main rig is the K3, it works really, really well. I LOVE IT! The KX3
sees portable operation. The Flex allows me to see multiple bands at once,
and/or more of one band than the K3/P3 does. The Flex 6x00 is also becoming
a much more integrated digital radio, thanks to keeping ALL the demod
sampling as digital, as it interfaces with FLDIGI, etc... programs. The K3
must still use analog audio interfacing, unless you use the internal
decoder/encoder. Couldn't one argue therefore that the K3 is only an analog
radio, based on this one weaklink? I am certainly NOT doing that, but it's
as ridiculous as saying the Flex is NOT a radio.

The Flex 6x00 series actually uses the newerSmartSDR software, that source
is not publicly available. The older PowerSDR did have its source code
available. Can you get the source code for the K3 or KX3? Not that I'd
ever want Elecraft to do that! NO!!!! But, that's another point that Flex
had.

With the new synth, Elecraft just proved that their already wonderful radio
CAN BE significantly improved. Congrats to them! Good Job! I love seeing
an improvement like that, regardless of the platform. Elecraft is paying
attention to both its hardware AND software/firmware.

I SEE NO REASON TO TRASH ONE TYPE OF RIG FOR ANOTHER. Those that disparage
one brand over another are likely insecure with their prior purchase
decisions. Over the last two decades or so, it was Yaesu vs Kenwood vs
Icom. At least now it's one SDR versus another. YES, the K3 IS generally
considered an SDR, even by the original K3 software engineer.

How about giving this product bashing a rest fellows? Implying a Flex is
not a radio is just going too far. It shows personal bias and
thick-headedness to the extreme.

And BTW, there's this new thing called "Cable TV", and some future stuff
called "streaming video" that may impact OTA TV. I'm keeping an eye on
these new technologies as well, even though I've spent over 30 years as a
broadcast TV engineer - and corporate engineering director, responsible for
only 23 OTA TV stations throughout the country (including during the DTV
transition). Before I saw the handwriting and retired.
73, Terry, WB4JFI (now N4TLF)

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2015 10:18 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] TS-990

> Flex makes a radio,

Correction - Flex makes a complex analog to digital and digital
to analog converter. The ADC/DAC is *not a radio* without all
the external computer hardware/software to control the ADC/DAC,
process the digital data and handle conversion back to audio for
the user. The computer hardware comes from any number of vendors
and much of the software (PowerSDR) has been public domain.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-03-10 9:50 AM, Harry Yingst via Elecraft wrote:

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