Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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I think I've mentioned this here before, but I actually *do* have a battery backup system in my shack and also operate using 12V in my travel trailer. The home system has a 90AH 12V AGM battery, continually charged with a HB "smart charger" and the trailer uses a pair of deep-cycle RV batteries with a similar charger. An EU2000 Honda is also used if necessary.
That said, in both cases I use a boost regulator to maintain a minimum of 13.8V AT THE K2 INPUT. Since, IMHO, a boost regulator is always a good idea, it could just as well boost to 24 or 30 or whatever voltage a cleaner transceiver would require. Wes N7WS --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Phil Kane <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Phil Kane <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > To: "Wes Stewart" <[hidden email]> > Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> > Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 11:56 AM > On 4/15/2010 8:25 AM, Wes Stewart > wrote: > > > For the life of me I can't understand why radios > continue to be > > designed around an automobile storage battery when > fewer than 1% > > will ever operate in a mobile environment. > > For those of us who insist that our communications > gear operate > when the mains power goes off, the 12V DC battery > system is the > most reasonable backup. Few if any of us have > the resources to > install a commercial 48V battery system - > which is the > commercial standard currently - or the 40 KW backup > generator > or solar array which is what is needed (but don't > have) to run > my house "off the grid". > > For communications backup purposes we don't use > "automobile > storage batteries" which are designed for a large > current draw > for a short time (engine cranking) and relatively > little current > draw afterward while the alternator picks up the > load. Deep-cycle > totally sealed batteries are the standard for > communication > backup systems of this capacity. > > My engineering firm designs commercial communication > sites > primarily for the public safety community and such > backup > power systems are a very important part of what we > do for our > clients. > > -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane > Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by Phil Kane-2
I don't find emergency backup to be a very compelling argument for sticking with a 12 volt PA design. I don't see why it would require a commercial system to provide backup for a ham rig, and I don't think it would be significantly more expensive to string four smaller capacity batteries in series instead of one larger 12 volt battery. Charging could be done at 48 volts, or at 12 volts with the batteries in parallel. My guess is that the only reason we still see 12 volt rigs is because they make mobile and portable use more convenient, which of course was Elecraft's roots anyway. Possibly even that will go away eventually ... the automotive manufactures have for some time been exploring higher voltage (42 volts or something like that if I remember correctly) systems because of the increasing current requirements (requiring heavier wiring) of today's expanding vehicle electronics. That was actively being discussed a dozen years ago, though, so most likely the voltage overshoot issues (relays and motors have a lot of inductance) have proven difficult to overcome. 73, Dave AB7E On 4/15/2010 10:56 AM, Phil Kane wrote: > On 4/15/2010 8:25 AM, Wes Stewart wrote: > > >> For the life of me I can't understand why radios continue to be >> designed around an automobile storage battery when fewer than 1% >> will ever operate in a mobile environment. >> > For those of us who insist that our communications gear operate > when the mains power goes off, the 12V DC battery system is the > most reasonable backup. Few if any of us have the resources to > install a commercial 48V battery system - which is the > commercial standard currently - or the 40 KW backup generator > or solar array which is what is needed (but don't have) to run > my house "off the grid". > > For communications backup purposes we don't use "automobile > storage batteries" which are designed for a large current draw > for a short time (engine cranking) and relatively little current > draw afterward while the alternator picks up the load. Deep-cycle > totally sealed batteries are the standard for communication > backup systems of this capacity. > > My engineering firm designs commercial communication sites > primarily for the public safety community and such backup > power systems are a very important part of what we do for our > clients. > > -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane > Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Ron Gould
Joe,
Very interesting. Not too surprising. I am building a CCI HF 300w amplifier kit (Motorola Engineering Bulletin: EB-27A), that uses 28-volt transistors. I bought a matched pair of the Toshiba equivalent for the MRF-422 (2SC2510 rated at 150w/each; power gain = 12.2 dB). IMD min (-30 dB) is at 85w. The K3 will drive it possibly to 200w output (100w per transistor). Running at 170w would probably be the cleanest level. Table-I in the engineering bulletin shows Harmonic performance (2-30 MHz) http://www.communication-concepts.com/eb27a.htm http://www.communication-concepts.com/appnotes/EB27A300Sharp.pdf If I like how the amplifier turns out, I may start building a few of these for the ham radio market. Ed - KL7UW ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:20:28 -0400 From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! To: "'Tom W8JI'" <[hidden email]> Cc: [hidden email] Message-ID: <85E31A466596414D860B7AC081725221@laptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a > cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: > http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm > > The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any > power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for > the MP. If you had not documented that the transistors were only rated for 70W PEP, I would have thought that one of the push-pull pair was open with those results. I don't know what transistors are but those IM plots would suggest the bias is incorrect - which might be logical if RM Italia are using an undersized heatsink. > There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at > 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these > little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can > increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap > illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 watters > are going to be our undoing. Very true ... we would be better off with 48V transistors with power levels below 200W PEP. There are several devices capable of 3rd and 5th order IMD better than -40 dB at that power level. 73, ... Joe, W4TV 73, Ed - KL7UW, WD2XSH/45 ====================================== BP40IQ 500 KHz - 10-GHz www.kl7uw.com EME: 144-600w, 432-100w, 1296-60w, 3400-fall 2010 DUBUS Magazine USA Rep [hidden email] ====================================== ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by n7ws
On 4/15/2010 11:14 AM, Wes Stewart wrote:
[ System described - much like my own system ] > That said, in both cases I use a boost regulator to maintain a > minimum of 13.8V AT THE K2 INPUT. As do I. I have two banks of circuit breakers on the 12V distribution system (I run 6 VHF/UHF transceivers and 5 receivers in the comm center in addition to the K2) and I have a separate boost regulator for each bank. > Since, IMHO, a boost regulator is always a good idea, it could > just as well boost to 24 or 30 or whatever voltage a cleaner > transceiver would require. Better to put the boost regulator inside the transceiver, as Motorola does in many of their high-power products. Memories of my conversion of a 6V Volkswagen "Beetle" to 12V many years ago, so I could finally get rid of the 6V-to-12V booster that was being overloaded as I added stuff in the vehicle that required 12V. That was an interesting project. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by David Gilbert
On 4/15/2010 11:51 AM, David Gilbert wrote:
> My guess is that the only reason we still see 12 volt rigs is because > they make mobile and portable use more convenient, which of course was > Elecraft's roots anyway. Possibly even that will go away eventually ... > the automotive manufactures have for some time been exploring higher > voltage (42 volts or something like that if I remember correctly) > systems because of the increasing current requirements (requiring > heavier wiring) of today's expanding vehicle electronics. That was > actively being discussed a dozen years ago, though, so most likely the > voltage overshoot issues (relays and motors have a lot of inductance) > have proven difficult to overcome. Memories of my conversion of a 6V Volkswagen "Beetle" to 12V many years ago, so I could finally get rid of the 6V-to-12V booster that was being overloaded as I added stuff in the vehicle that required 12V. That was an interesting project. In the last several years, commercial comm sites have gone to the telephone industry's 48 volt standard, with the major comm equipment manufacturers putting the 48V-to-12V down-converter as an integral part of their equipment or a needed accessory. The railroad industry has been at 72 volts down-converted to 12V for ages. I for one am happy to stay with 12V on my K2 which usually runs at about 40 watts for data modes. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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My understanding is that lower volt systems are preferred by electrical
safety codes because they pose less danger to human life. From what I understand, the only way you could cause death from a 12 volt circuit is if the short circuited path goes through the human heart. That is why electrical safety codes demonstrate a preference for lower volt systems in highly mobile uses such as motor vehicles. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Phil Kane Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 1:43 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 12 volt PA On 4/15/2010 11:51 AM, David Gilbert wrote: > My guess is that the only reason we still see 12 volt rigs is because > they make mobile and portable use more convenient, which of course was > Elecraft's roots anyway. Possibly even that will go away eventually ... > the automotive manufactures have for some time been exploring higher > voltage (42 volts or something like that if I remember correctly) > systems because of the increasing current requirements (requiring > heavier wiring) of today's expanding vehicle electronics. That was > actively being discussed a dozen years ago, though, so most likely the > voltage overshoot issues (relays and motors have a lot of inductance) > have proven difficult to overcome. Memories of my conversion of a 6V Volkswagen "Beetle" to 12V many years ago, so I could finally get rid of the 6V-to-12V booster that was being overloaded as I added stuff in the vehicle that required 12V. That was an interesting project. In the last several years, commercial comm sites have gone to the telephone industry's 48 volt standard, with the major comm equipment manufacturers putting the 48V-to-12V down-converter as an integral part of their equipment or a needed accessory. The railroad industry has been at 72 volts down-converted to 12V for ages. I for one am happy to stay with 12V on my K2 which usually runs at about 40 watts for data modes. -- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402 ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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Voltage doesn't kill. Current kills. You can kill yourself on very few volts, if it isn't current limited. 12V, 48v, no real difference. Maybe the K5 will have a couple of big honking ceramic tubes in the box and we'll need 3000v at 1.5A CCS. Going to have to upgrade my 180 A/h 12V backup battery system for that, for sure :-)
Grant/NQ5T On Apr 15, 2010, at 4:59 PM, George A. Thornton wrote: > My understanding is that lower volt systems are preferred by electrical > safety codes because they pose less danger to human life. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by W8JI
Hi Tom Good information the cheap amp. Another model amplifier that has a cult following on the ham bands, especially with new hams is the HLA300. This amp is another IMD disaster. Without people like yourself who highlight these problems we not going to win the battle with these cheap garbage amps being used on the ham bands. These amps seem very attractive to new hams who dont know any better. John --- On Thu, 4/15/10, Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Tom W8JI <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > To: "Gary Gregory" <[hidden email]>, "lstavenhagen" <[hidden email]> > Cc: [hidden email] > Date: Thursday, April 15, 2010, 4:10 AM > << On SSB it isn't so much the > folks on ESSB, although we > have a few of those > here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW > > plus amplifierrs > and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose > > and do a quick > QSY..(:-))>> > > If we are every going to fix things we need to honestly > discuss the real problems. > > I have been doing a survey of ops on 20 and 40 meters with > > very bad signals, and nearly all the nasty signals were not > > high power. Most, after I broke in for a friendly chat, we > > running small amps and just mistuning or overdriving them. > > A significant number had "peaked" their radios up and were > > running a bit more output from a 100 watt radio. As a > matter > of fact a contestor who brought his FT1000MP's to me had > his > 100 watt radios screwed up to 130-140 watts, so this may be > > a more common practice then we think. I lowered his radios > > to 100 watts, and after a while when the radios came back > for another update they were back up to 130-140 watts > again. > At that power level the radios had IM3 in the -20 dB PEP > range, and products out to the 17th order were still > strong. > > For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a > cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: > http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm > > The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any > power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for > > the MP. > > There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at > 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these > little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can > increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap > illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 > watters > are going to be our undoing. > > 73 Tom > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
I've found many a discussion where one has a "100 watt" radio that only puts
out 90 watts according to their meter an they are mighty unhappy about it. Hence, they push the critter trying to get 100 watts out of the box or worse, tweak the radio until the meter reads 100 watts, never giving a though to what they've done or the side effects. Never a minute did they think the meter might be off by 10 watts. Perhaps there is still a reason to validate DC input power as the means of power measurement. 73 Bob, K4TAX ----- Original Message ----- From: "Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]> To: <[hidden email]> Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > Tom, > > This is the "all knobs to the right" syndrome. It just does not sink > into some minds that 100 watts is about the maximum that can be realized > from a typical "automotive battery voltage" of 13.8 volts without > running into unacceptable IMD regions. > > I certainly don't know how to counter it. There are so many hams who > try to squeeze every last ounce of power from whatever transceiver thay > may be using that it amazes me. Some will even complain endlessly about > all the bad signals on the air while cranking their power control to the > maximum and putting out a signal that is as bad or worse than those they > are complaining about. I just don't understand the "logic" because it > certainly is not logical. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > > Tom W8JI wrote: >> << On SSB it isn't so much the folks on ESSB, although we >> have a few of those >> here also unfortunately, but rather the poorly adjusted 1KW >> plus amplifierrs >> and badly adjusted audio that causes me to screw up my nose >> and do a quick >> QSY..(:-))>> >> >> If we are every going to fix things we need to honestly >> discuss the real problems. >> >> I have been doing a survey of ops on 20 and 40 meters with >> very bad signals, and nearly all the nasty signals were not >> high power. Most, after I broke in for a friendly chat, we >> running small amps and just mistuning or overdriving them. >> A significant number had "peaked" their radios up and were >> running a bit more output from a 100 watt radio. As a matter >> of fact a contestor who brought his FT1000MP's to me had his >> 100 watt radios screwed up to 130-140 watts, so this may be >> a more common practice then we think. I lowered his radios >> to 100 watts, and after a while when the radios came back >> for another update they were back up to 130-140 watts again. >> At that power level the radios had IM3 in the -20 dB PEP >> range, and products out to the 17th order were still strong. >> >> For all those intent on boosting low power radios with a >> cheap external PA, you can see measurements here: >> http://www.w8ji.com/rm_hla-150_test.htm >> >> The very best the RM Italy amp gets on *any band at any >> power* is about like a FT1000MP on the very WORSE band for >> the MP. >> >> There is no convincing people that our 100 watt radios at >> 100 watts are barely acceptable as is, and that all these >> little tricks that give another 1-2 dB more power can >> increase splatter 15 dB or more. Worse yet, those cheap >> illegal amplifiers that make 10-watt radios into 100 watters >> are going to be our undoing. >> >> > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by juergen piezo
Hi John,
There is a real risk IMHO that the Regulators, in Region 1 anyway, will act and impose tighter requirements on Amateur Tx IMD levels ( and spurii) if we hams do not win this battle - and push for *much* cleaner transmitters. The Regulators by and large are not really concerned if we hams interfere with each other, but are rightly concerned should we interfere with any non-Amateur Service, in particular those using an adjacent frequency allocation. In Europe the problem is easy to see on 40m, where too often somebody operating LSB will snuggle up to the top edge of our allocation at 7200 kHz, and transmit high level IMD products out of band. 73, Geoff GM4ESD On Friday, April 16, 2010, at12:58 AM, John "juergen" <[hidden email]> wrote: > Without people like yourself who highlight these problems we not going to > win the battle with these cheap garbage amps being used on the ham bands. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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Hi Geoff Lets hope the regulators do act. As you say anyone who needs convincing just needs to tune the 40 meter band. Now that we have SDR receivers the mess is plain as daylight. Most of the objections to out of band emissions assume that these regulations are very onerous, they are not. The IMD requirements are modest, all that it required is proper attention be payed to TX design details. I am hopeful that the regulators will bite the bullet and act soon. 73 John --- On Fri, 4/16/10, Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Ten Tec never sounded so good! > To: "juergen" <[hidden email]> > Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]> > Date: Friday, April 16, 2010, 7:06 AM > Hi John, > > There is a real risk IMHO that the Regulators, in Region 1 > anyway, will act and impose tighter requirements on Amateur > Tx IMD levels ( and spurii) if we hams do not win this > battle - and push for *much* cleaner transmitters. The > Regulators by and large are not really concerned if we hams > interfere with each other, but are rightly concerned should > we interfere with any non-Amateur Service, in particular > those using an adjacent frequency allocation. > > In Europe the problem is easy to see on 40m, where too > often somebody operating LSB will snuggle up to the top edge > of our allocation at 7200 kHz, and transmit high level IMD > products out of band. > > 73, > Geoff > GM4ESD > > > On Friday, April 16, 2010, at12:58 AM, John "juergen" > <[hidden email]> > wrote: > > > Without people like yourself who highlight these > problems we not going to win the battle with these cheap > garbage amps being used on the ham bands. > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: Ten Tec never sounded so good!
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In reply to this post by Ron Gould
I use two old Pasasonic bookshelf speakers from back in the day and they sound great on my K3. The ones that are octagon shaped.
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In reply to this post by Ron Gould
Well I posted the start of the thread "Ten Tec never sounded so good!" regarding how good the Ten Tec speakers sounded on my K3. I was somewhat amazed no one got it. Lots of fine intentioned folks commented about everything but Ten Tec speakers comparing those with lots of other ones they have used. Gee it was tongue and cheek! Point was TEN TEC SPEAKERS NEVER SOUNDED SO GOOD AS THEY DID WHEN HOOKED UP TO A K3. If anyone is still confused by this then they would have to hook up Ten Tec speakers to a Ten Tec radio and then compare them when hooked up to a K3, really simple english. Ha only done to stir up the bored.
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