The Cost Of Amateur Radios

[joemoffatt]

 Opinions will vary, and over time, you may find that your likes and dislikes change.

For casual ssb use, I think the Flex is awesome.  For serious cw and contesting, I think the Flex's are lagging quite a bit, and the 6300 has serious shortcomings (they market it as a casual radio and it is exactly that).

I also got tired of random lockups and weird things, and focus issues in windows, under heavy use during contests.

All strictly personal choices, but I don't think a non standalone (requires PC) versus a standalone radio is an apples to apples comparison.

For casual use, you may not see much need for a K3 vs a Flex and it may be a bargain to get a 6300.  But just last weekend we took a 6300 to a local EOC to operate in a QSO party.   The lack of a front end preselector vs the 6500 that we also took was highly noticeable.  Visually, interference raised the noise floor 15db from neighboring stations in the building. On the 6500, there was no evidence of interference. (Preselector vs non).  I took my K3 and outscored them all with zero interference.

That is a 2000 dollar difference in just the Flex line there.

Anyhow, it is all about personal opinion and how you use a radio, and for what purposes.

Speaking of so2r, I am not sure the 6x series can do that.   True so2r allows you tx on one rig while listening on the other.  I realize you have multiple slices, but can you hear a separate freq while transmitting?   If so, that is a Flex advantage.  If not, that is so2v, and the K3 and lots of others can do that.   I haven't tried that so I don't know if it does or doesn't.

73,

Joe
AB5OR



-------- Original message --------
From: Bill Turner <[hidden email]>
Date: 04/10/2015 7:55 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: Elecraft <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Cost Of Amateur Radios

------------ ORIGINAL MESSAGE ------------(may be snipped)

On Thu, 09 Apr 2015 23:45:53 -0700, you wrote:

>and the UI is something that only the programmer's mother
>could love. :)

REPLY:

Don't be so quick to dismiss the UI. For one, it shows the state of
most settings all the time. For example, on the K3, to see the power
level, you have to turn the knob and even then the power only flashes
on the screen for about a second. On the 6300 it's there all the time.
In other words, the K3's display is seriously limited in what it can
show. The 6300's is not.

Again, I didn't intend to get into a flame war between radios. I only
wanted to respond to the fellow who said the K3 was a "bargain" by
pointing out that the K3's features could be had for a lot less money.
In all fairness, I think the higher end SDR's are overpriced too.

73, Bill W6WRT
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[KEN-3]

All modern rigs have software updates.   Elecraft updates the
firmware.   The issue is the maturity and completeness of the operating
software.   I think the Flex software is early in it's development and
has a long way to go to reach the stable environment the most other
vendors have.

Ken WA8JXM


On 09/04/2015 23:05, Bill Turner wrote:
> They only charge for major upgrades, minor ones are free. As they
> point out, the reason they charge is to pay for the time spent on it.
> Don't think software or firmware upgrades are free - you pay for it
> one way or another, and if you don't want it, there is no cost at all.
> 73, Bill W6WRT

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[Tony Estep]

On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:51 AM, Joe Moffatt <[hidden email]> wrote:

For casual ssb use, I think the Flex is awesome....

==============
Yup. We tend to forget that there are many hams who come to HF from the
world of 2-meter repeaters, and/or who never chase DX or operate in
difficult conditions or dig for weak signals or work contests. For the
casual SSB rag-chewer, the Flex design is probably okay, and will
presumably be even better if/when they deliver the promised software
features. But its inherent configuration will never deliver the operating
experience that you get with a K3 or some other top-end conventional
radios. And a comparable Flex costs thousands of dollars more than a
fully-equipped K3.

Tony KT0NY
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[Jim Brown-10]

On Thu,4/9/2015 6:07 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>   And remember the place to crow
> about Flex is on their reflector.

Naw -- there you'll hear nothing but good news from True Believers. I
read the Ten Tec reflector because I have Ten Tec amps, and nothing but
worship there.

73, Jim K9YC
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[Elecraft mailing list]

For casual SSB use my HW-101 was awesome.  So was/is (still have them)
my Swan Cygnet 270B, TS-140, and Icom IC-746.  Each represented a
significant technological step forward.

A year or so ago, my XYL and I decided to start planning to move out of
our rural QTH to something more convenient considering our ages and my
health issues.  I thought it was important to downsize the collection of
transceivers.  I decided to sell the K-line and go with the rather
pricey but well-designed  "I" line.  After a year or so of exclusively
using this setup, it became extremely clear to me that I had made a
mistake.  As nice as this station was, there were many irritating flaws
that kept bugging me.

I quickly sold the "I" line and repurchased a K-line.  Over the past 20
years I have a bought and sold just about every significant radio on the
market.  It's hard to compile a list of features that make the K3
standout in the large field of competent products. I had a few favorites
like the TS-850 that just seemed to contain some kind of magic that made
it stand out in a way that is nearly impossible to define.  The K3
receiver obviously is virtually unmatched.  But there is so much more.  
The best way to sum it up is to say that the K3 user interface was
designed by someone who had enormous experience operating a transceiver
in all types of conditions and who knew what parameters needed to be
adjusted easily and quickly and which took a second level of priority,
and which a third. Design based on pure experience rather than a committee.

I tried a Flex.  It is a nice radio.  But being tethered to a computer
all the time makes it not so much of a "Flex"able platform.  When I
unhook my K3 and carry it someplace else to use, it contains everything
I need.  and it's so lightweight compared to others which makes it ideal
for porting to a second location once or twice a month.

Let's face it - the K3 is the industry benchmark.  Others that have
tried to match it produce products that only come close and cost twice
as much.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 4/10/2015 8:44 AM, Tony Estep wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 10, 2015 at 8:51 AM, Joe Moffatt <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> For casual ssb use, I think the Flex is awesome....
>
> ==============
> Yup. We tend to forget that there are many hams who come to HF from the
> world of 2-meter repeaters, and/or who never chase DX or operate in
> difficult conditions or dig for weak signals or work contests. For the
> casual SSB rag-chewer, the Flex design is probably okay, and will
> presumably be even better if/when they deliver the promised software
> features. But its inherent configuration will never deliver the operating
> experience that you get with a K3 or some other top-end conventional
> radios. And a comparable Flex costs thousands of dollars more than a
> fully-equipped K3.
>
> Tony KT0NY
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Thu,4/9/2015 6:07 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>>   And remember the place to crow
>> about Flex is on their reflector.
>
> Naw -- there you'll hear nothing but good news from True Believers. I read
> the Ten Tec reflector because I have Ten Tec amps, and nothing but worship
> there.

My question is why you'd bother coming to an Elecraft list to talk about
other radios. At least I learned about another radio, but I'm usually
here to find out Elecraft products.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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[joemoffatt]

It is because at least in the US, Flex is all the rage and you have numerous writers and others saying the end of non SDR radios is here, even though the K3 is part SDR.

The thread was about how the K3 isn't comparable in price to the new 6300 series.    The arguments have been made about how that really is or isn't the case.

It is also a testimony to how strongly most of the users on this list feel for their K3.  So it is about Elecraft.

It would also seem to be a beneficial thread to those exploring moving to or from Elecraft to a Flex.



Joe
AB5OR




-------- Original message --------
From: Hisashi T Fujinaka <[hidden email]>
Date: 04/10/2015 11:08 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] The Cost Of Amateur Radios

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Thu,4/9/2015 6:07 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>> And remember the place to crow
>> about Flex is on their reflector.
>
> Naw -- there you'll hear nothing but good news from True Believers. I read
> the Ten Tec reflector because I have Ten Tec amps, and nothing but worship
> there.

My question is why you'd bother coming to an Elecraft list to talk about
other radios. At least I learned about another radio, but I'm usually
here to find out Elecraft products.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee
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[Dan Baker]

I use a KX3 and Flex 6500.
I really enjoy them both. It does not have to be one way or the other.
And for my use, they work equally well. The real answer is, a man needs one
of each. I would like to have a K3 or what ever else Elecraft sends us. I
worked a guy last night on Olivia with 7 watts on the Flex, he was using a
FT-817 running 2 watts. It was a lot of fun for 45 minutes. Made me want to
run the KX3 in its place but I was already committed to the QSO, I did not
want to error switching rigs. I say this because it was not the hardware
that made it fun. It was a wire antenna, a mode and a good operator on the
other end. See you guys in Visalia next week.

73,    Dan KM6CQ

--
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[Bill Turner-2]

------------ ORIGINAL MESSAGE ------------(may be snipped)

On Fri, 10 Apr 2015 16:14:00 +0000, you wrote:

>The thread was about how the K3 isn't comparable in price to the new 6300 series.

REPLY:

Not quite. The thread was about a fellow's opinion that the K3 was a
"bargain".

The other radio was brought up just for comparison for the money. It
could have been many other brands besides Flex.

73, Bill W6WRT
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[Edward R Cole]

At risk this has already been "moderated", but my two cents:

I had about 4+ years to study the choices, and the K3 was on the list
from the start.  At the time of my decision (May 2010) the main
contender was the Flex5000.  A lot of eme'rs bought the Flex, but I
decided to listen to the HF CWers and bought my K3/10.

What is nice is one can order their K3 optimized as they want by
buying the options you will use.  I do mainly VHF-eme so I did not
need a 100w HF amp; in fact I do not use the 10w amp very much as
transverters run on 0-dBm XVTR I/F.

I did want the better TCXO and bought a few filters (ended up selling
one of them), bought the KRX3 subreceiver, but no ATU (I had two
manual HF tuners).  My total before shipping was $2863.  Definitely
the most I ever spent on a single ham radio.  I robbed my 401K for
the funds (promising my wife it was the last ham radio of my life - I
lied as I bought the KX3 two years later).

I think customer relations of Elecraft are superb!  And so far the
firmware upgrades cost me nothing - the promise of a "forever SDR"
was kept.  Yeah, the new SYNTH will cost me a little - but not
another $3K.  I do not need a K4.  My previous radios were a FT-847
and FT-817, FT-840 before that and a Tentec Scout, TS180S, Tentec
Argonaut 505 ....heathkits (some I built).

To date, no buyers remorse for me!

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
     "Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
     [hidden email]

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[Bill Steffey NY9H]

I remember well back in the 70s  doing sales meetings for audio salespeople,.,,
reminding them that when it comes to what brand/model  of stereo amp
/ loudspeaker fill in the blank ,,,( transceivers ??)  was purchased by
an "ENTHUSIAST "  ....  that WAS THE BEST ONE TO BUY,,,
what fool would by less than the best ,,, DUH !

and I would image a ham would admit he couldn't get his tower up,
before he'd admit he made bought a mistake,,,  heavens forbid.

And yes I DRINK THE ELECRAAIDE....  love it.

bill
I actually belive the radio is "sounds" quieter with the new synth...
    maybe too much drink




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[Bill-3]

Over over fifty years of hamming, I have used all of the famous older
rigs. In recent years I have rebuilt several of those classics - as the
nostalgia bug bites. I even had a Flex and a fancy computer to run it. I
have been running my K3 and assorted other K-Line toys for nearly three
years. My K3 has only the innards that I use (hence a "custom and
personally designed for me" radio). I did experience KAT500 tuner
problems early on, however, I was quickly assisted by Wayne and gang
with a software change that has made me a happy K-Line owner. All that
said, the K-Line makes the best station I have ever run, And, you can
make it as computer needy or independent as you wish. Again - all to
suit your specific needs and desires.

So far as those classic rigs I rebuilt? They were fun to rebuild and
bring back to full specs, but.... after running modern equipment, I
immediately missed memories, digital readout, DSP, etc. They were soon
sold to collectors and appreciators of classic equipment.

The only changes I plan on making here is to design a new desk - and
build same in my shop - specifically for my K-Line station.

Bill W2BLC K-Line
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[Wes (N7WS)]

Fifty-seven years here. Went through a 75A-1, 75A-4, KWM-1, TR-7 and my favorite
TS870SAT to name a few. Plus lots of homebrew.  I've downsized to a K3, KPA500
and (temporarily) a KAT500 but kept my first RX, a BC342N, which is almost as
old as I am.  I'm thinking about remodeling the shack too but not 'till I get a
new K4.

Wes  N7WS

On 4/10/2015 1:55 PM, Bill wrote:

> Over over fifty years of hamming, I have used all of the famous older rigs. In
> recent years I have rebuilt several of those classics - as the nostalgia bug
> bites. I even had a Flex and a fancy computer to run it. I have been running
> my K3 and assorted other K-Line toys for nearly three years. My K3 has only
> the innards that I use (hence a "custom and personally designed for me"
> radio). I did experience KAT500 tuner problems early on, however, I was
> quickly assisted by Wayne and gang with a software change that has made me a
> happy K-Line owner. All that said, the K-Line makes the best station I have
> ever run, And, you can make it as computer needy or independent as you wish.
> Again - all to suit your specific needs and desires.
>
> So far as those classic rigs I rebuilt? They were fun to rebuild and bring
> back to full specs, but.... after running modern equipment, I immediately
> missed memories, digital readout, DSP, etc. They were soon sold to collectors
> and appreciators of classic equipment.
>
> The only changes I plan on making here is to design a new desk - and build
> same in my shop - specifically for my K-Line station.
>
> Bill W2BLC K-Line

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[Elecraft mailing list]

I have, among others, a KX3/PX3, an Orion II and a Collins S-line, all  
fully loaded.  I enjoy all of them, but for serious DXing its the O II and  
KPA500 every time.  I am 90% CW, and rarely use SSB.  
 
A lot of guys around here have Flex, but they are mostly casual SSB ops who
 like to play with computers.  That isn't me.
 
73 Ray W2RS
 
In a message dated 4/10/2015 3:06:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
[hidden email] writes:
 

For  casual SSB use my HW-101 was awesome.  So was/is (still have them)
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[Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ]

Looks like this one has now been beaten into submission..

Interesting comments, but let's let this thread rest for now in order to relieve
other list readers from email overload. :-)

Thread closed.

73,

Eric
List modulator etc.
elecraft.com

> In a message dated 4/10/2015 3:06:34 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> [hidden email] writes:
>  
>
> For  casual SSB use my HW-101 was awesome.  So was/is (still have them)
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
>

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[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

I must be one of the young guys.

On 4/10/2015 2:54 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
> Fifty-seven years here. Went through a 75A-1, 75A-4, KWM-1, TR-7 and
> my favorite TS870SAT to name a few.

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I am too - I did not start playing with tubes until 1958.
     Kevin.  KD5ONS

On 4/10/2015 4:46 PM, Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT wrote:
> I must be one of the young guys.
>
> On 4/10/2015 2:54 PM, Wes (N7WS) wrote:
>> Fifty-seven years here. Went through a 75A-1, 75A-4, KWM-1, TR-7 and
>> my favorite TS870SAT to name a few.
>

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[Don Wilhelm-4]

I just passed my 60th year as a licensed radio amateur.  Started at the
age of 15 (so go figure - the math is easy).
I was 'playing with tubes' at that time and built my first transmitter
from an ARRL handbook design.  I used it through my novice year and
later as a General.  After that, I began to build receivers, something
few amateurs attempted at that time, but I did not have the funds to buy
a good receiver.  I scrounged surplus parts because they were easily
available as WW II surplus and you could buy a BC-453 for $5 at a
surplus store.

When I was in college, I had a BC-348 receiver and wanting to get
something on the air from my dorm room, I built a 10 meter transmitter
from WW II transmitter components and had a lot of fun on 10 meter AM
with an antenna hung out the window of the dorm.

In today's hindsight, I would like to have some of those BC series
receivers and transmitters I stripped for parts because they fetch a
'pretty penny' on Ebay and other sources today.  But I got value out of
them, so I have no regrets.  I even have several 85 kHz IF cans in the
attic should someone want them - I hate to see them go unused, but
modern components and crystal filters do a better job today.

I gave up tubes sometime in the 1980s when I began converting tube
radios to MOSFETS, and have never turned back.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/10/2015 7:55 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> I am too - I did not start playing with tubes until 1958.
>     Kevin.  KD5ONS
>

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