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The last of the through-hole kits

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alorona

The last of the through-hole kits

I'm afraid my eyes and hands are beyond working on surface mount stuff. Years
ago I predicted that the Ten Tec Omni VI might be the last rig that was fully
user-repairable, meaning that because of its use of through-hole parts it could
still be worked on by the common man. Shortly after I made that remark the K2
was introduced. So now perhaps only the K2 and perhaps one other kit currently
out there (the DZkit Sienna) are the last of the user-repairable through-hole
rigs. Hang on to those two, if you have them. I suppose the only thing working
against the K2 and Sienna are the lifetimes of some of the ICs and transistors
in them as semiconductor parts are constantly being obsoleted. (Irony: You can
still easily find a 6L6 or 12AX7 but MRF 458's are extinct!)

At that time I also wondered (after seeing the prices of original unopened
Heathkits on eBay) whether it wouldn't be a great retirement investment
to stockpile a few unopened and unbuilt Elecraft kits in the attic.

Al W6LX
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Jim Low man

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

You might be waiting a long time, Al, since having value as an
unassembled kit would
require that Elecraft no longer produce the kit in question.

Yet another thing that I like about the Elecraft design philosophy.
Just because they
came up with the K3, they didn't stop selling the K2. In fact, consider
the following:

I started out with the basic 10w K2, and added options as needed over
the years.
Recently I've been thinking about getting the 60m option, which includes the
transverter interface. When the K2 was introduced, we didn't have any
spectrum
allocated on 60m, and the concept of interfacing seamlessly with a
transverter
was probably a distant vision at best. But now, 10+ years later, these
features have
been incorporated into the design of the K2 and can now be added as desired.

Try that with the Big Three. You can bet that when 60m became available
to hams, it
would be on their latest and greatest new radio, with no hope for
backward compatibility
with prior models.

Elecraft and Ten-Tec are OK in my book. With the exception of the
FT-817 and FT-847,
every radio in the shack here is from a current or past US manufacturer.

72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 6/3/2011 11:56 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
> At that time I also wondered (after seeing the prices of original unopened
> Heathkits on eBay) whether it wouldn't be a great retirement investment
> to stockpile a few unopened and unbuilt Elecraft kits in the attic.
>
>
> Al W6LX
>
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Doug Person-3

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

I think I love my K2 just a little more than my K3 just because I spent
the time and effort building it one piece at a time. While the K3 is an
exceptional performer, the K2 is still very superior to so many other
rigs and is an absolute pleasure to operate. Long live the K2. (Some
years ago while chatting with Wayne and Eric, they said that they had
purchased a substantial quantity of the critical through-hole components
most likely to disappear from the market. So, I suspect that the K2
will be around for quite some time. I'm willing to take bets it will
still be here in 10 years)

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 6/3/2011 4:51 PM, Jim Lowman wrote:

> You might be waiting a long time, Al, since having value as an
> unassembled kit would
> require that Elecraft no longer produce the kit in question.
>
> Yet another thing that I like about the Elecraft design philosophy.
> Just because they
> came up with the K3, they didn't stop selling the K2. In fact, consider
> the following:
>
> I started out with the basic 10w K2, and added options as needed over
> the years.
> Recently I've been thinking about getting the 60m option, which includes the
> transverter interface. When the K2 was introduced, we didn't have any
> spectrum
> allocated on 60m, and the concept of interfacing seamlessly with a
> transverter
> was probably a distant vision at best. But now, 10+ years later, these
> features have
> been incorporated into the design of the K2 and can now be added as desired.
>
> Try that with the Big Three. You can bet that when 60m became available
> to hams, it
> would be on their latest and greatest new radio, with no hope for
> backward compatibility
> with prior models.
>
> Elecraft and Ten-Tec are OK in my book. With the exception of the
> FT-817 and FT-847,
> every radio in the shack here is from a current or past US manufacturer.
>
> 72/73 de Jim - AD6CW
>
> On 6/3/2011 11:56 AM, Al Lorona wrote:
>> At that time I also wondered (after seeing the prices of original unopened
>> Heathkits on eBay) whether it wouldn't be a great retirement investment
>> to stockpile a few unopened and unbuilt Elecraft kits in the attic.
>>
>>
>> Al W6LX
>>
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k6dgw

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

The USAF logistics folks call that a "Lifetime Buy." Hapens a lot since
many airplanes have lifetimes of 30 years or more [50+ for B-52's]. My
guess is the K2 will remain attractive to many people for a long time,
maybe 30 years?

Fred K6DGW

On 6/3/2011 11:10 PM, Doug Person wrote:
> (Some
> years ago while chatting with Wayne and Eric, they said that they had
> purchased a substantial quantity of the critical through-hole components
> most likely to disappear from the market.

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Eric Champine

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

Good!
I love building radios and I have just started my marriage to the K2. Last
year I built the full blown K1 and I loved it so much, the K2 was the
logical next step. Now I have a grand idea of how I want to build and setup
my K2 and then people started to talk about how the end of the K2 could be
close. I really hope not! I think the K2 Kit and add-ons fills a big void
out there. There is still in my honest opinion a big need for these style of
kits. All I know is I am now going to step up and purchase everything I want
and need more sooner than later. Long live the K2! :-)

73 DeW2EEC

Eric
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John Ragle

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

I think this is a basic misunderstanding of the rhetoric. "The last of
the through-hole kits" does not imply that the K2 will (or will not) be
abandoned. It simply implies that NEW TO THE MASS MARKET kits will
probably not be of the through-hole variety. Google on "kits" or
something similar and you will find very many small outfits that sell
kits of the through-hole type or kits with limited numbers of SMD
components. For the larger markets, there are just too many cost-saving
aspects to the use of SM devices for it to be practical to ignore them.

John Ragle -- W1ZI

=====

On 6/3/2011 8:53 PM, Eric Champine wrote:
> ...people started to talk about how the end of the K2 could be
> close...

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wayne burdick

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

Administrator

In reply to this post by Eric Champine

The K2 is alive and well.

All of the parts we used 10 years ago are still in production or we
have substitutes for them. For example, one IC we use on a K2 option
module recently became unobtainium, so we switched to new part and
changed the board layout. It's a surface-mount part, and we'll just
install it ahead of time, as we do for a couple of parts on the KX1,
T1, etc.

You still get to solder the other several hundred parts :)

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jun 3, 2011, at 5:53 PM, Eric Champine wrote:

> Good!
> I love building radios and I have just started my marriage to the
> K2. Last
> year I built the full blown K1 and I loved it so much, the K2 was the
> logical next step. Now I have a grand idea of how I want to build
> and setup
> my K2 and then people started to talk about how the end of the K2
> could be
> close. I really hope not! I think the K2 Kit and add-ons fills a big
> void
> out there. There is still in my honest opinion a big need for these
> style of
> kits. All I know is I am now going to step up and purchase
> everything I want
> and need more sooner than later. Long live the K2! :-)

Doug Person-3

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

In reply to this post by John Ragle

I think you're absolutely correct. Still, it wasn't long ago that
someone was expressing concern that the K2 was obsolete and could be
dropped from the line.

I don't particularly like working with SMDs. Bu, facing the inevitable,
I just ordered a stereo microscope designed for working with them wee
little parts. That, a hot air rework station and a vacuum picker and I
think I'm set. I built one small SMD kit. And like I said - I don't
really enjoy it. The parts are pain to work with.

Doug -- K0DXV

On 6/3/2011 7:04 PM, John Ragle wrote:

> I think this is a basic misunderstanding of the rhetoric. "The last of
> the through-hole kits" does not imply that the K2 will (or will not) be
> abandoned. It simply implies that NEW TO THE MASS MARKET kits will
> probably not be of the through-hole variety. Google on "kits" or
> something similar and you will find very many small outfits that sell
> kits of the through-hole type or kits with limited numbers of SMD
> components. For the larger markets, there are just too many cost-saving
> aspects to the use of SM devices for it to be practical to ignore them.
>
> John Ragle -- W1ZI
>
> =====
>
> On 6/3/2011 8:53 PM, Eric Champine wrote:
>> ...people started to talk about how the end of the K2 could be
>> close...
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

In reply to this post by Eric Champine

Eric,

I believe I was one of the first responders to the initial question.
I did say that the K2 was a mature product, but by no means does that
make it obsolete or near the end of its life.

Elecraft will continue to offer the K2 as a kit, and will continue to
provide support for it - for who knows how long? -- until the labor
effort to kit it exceeds the profitability is my best guess for that answer.

Most of the parts in the K2 will either be continued to be available, or
suitable substitutes will be available.
For instance, the IF amplifier, the MC1350 used to be available in a DIP
package, but now is difficult to find in that format, but is available
in SMD format. Elecraft's solution was to put the SMD part on a carrier
board that could be mounted in the original DIP holes. If the same fate
occurs with other ICs such as the SA612 Gilbert Cell mixer/product
detector, I am certain that the same carrier board (but with an SA612,
etc. rather than the MC1350) can be used. A similar argument could be
made for most any other active component in the K2. Through-hole
resistors and capacitors are likely to be available for many years to
come, if for no other reason than to satisfy the DIY builders. Even if
those parts do dry up, it is not very difficult to devise a scheme to
use SMD parts in their place. So, IMHO, parts availability will
determine the life of the K2 (and K1 and KX1) - those designs do not use
exotic parts, so availability of parts in one form or another should
continue for a long time.

OK, I do not have a "crystal ball" to tell me the ins and outs of parts
availability, but what I can say is that the parts used in the K2 are
common enough that replacements should be available for a long time,
even if those replacements are in SMD format.

Any K2 will work for years if it is not abused. My now (almost) 12 year
old Field Test K2 is still up and running, and I expect it to do so for
another 10, 20, or 30 years. If something fails, it can be fixed by one
means or another, and I expect its performance will not degrade during
that period.

However, my hopes for additional mods or upgrades to the K2 are nil - at
least those coming from Elecraft (that is what a mature product usually
means). Any enhancements to my K2 will be mods of my own doing, and
those will be done on a "one-off" basis (for my own use). I may offer
those mods to the general K2 public, but they will not be "Elecraft
sanctioned".

73,
Don W3FPR

On 6/3/2011 8:53 PM, Eric Champine wrote:

> Good!
> I love building radios and I have just started my marriage to the K2. Last
> year I built the full blown K1 and I loved it so much, the K2 was the
> logical next step. Now I have a grand idea of how I want to build and setup
> my K2 and then people started to talk about how the end of the K2 could be
> close. I really hope not! I think the K2 Kit and add-ons fills a big void
> out there. There is still in my honest opinion a big need for these style of
> kits. All I know is I am now going to step up and purchase everything I want
> and need more sooner than later. Long live the K2! :-)
>
> 73 DeW2EEC
>

John Huggins, kx4o

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

In reply to this post by Doug Person-3

I, for one, would love an all SMD kit.

0201 chip passives and BGA would be too hard core, but 0402+ and
gullwings... bring on the cut-tape and tubes baby. Soldercream anyone?

John

On 6/3/11 9:12 PM, Doug Person wrote:

> I don't particularly like working with SMDs. Bu, facing the inevitable,
> I just ordered a stereo microscope designed for working with them wee
> little parts. That, a hot air rework station and a vacuum picker and I
> think I'm set. I built one small SMD kit. And like I said - I don't
> really enjoy it. The parts are pain to work with.
>
> Doug -- K0DXV
>
> On 6/3/2011 7:04 PM, John Ragle wrote:
>> I think this is a basic misunderstanding of the rhetoric. "The last of
>> the through-hole kits" does not imply that the K2 will (or will not) be

w2bvh

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

I always thought a machine built K2 might have worked out at least as
well as a user constructed one. Build quality would be very consistent
and unit cost / selling price might actually be less than that of a kit.

The big problem, especially for a company just starting out, would be
obtaining (and risking) the amount of money needed to pay for a batch of
machine-made boards. The batch size would need to be big enough to
warrant the setup cost on the machines(s). The batch would also sit as
inventory, also tying up capital. Kits could be made up in runs of any
size. So a through hole / kit approach was actually less of a financial
risk.

Personally I would not have missed the kit building experience, but
everyone has their own preference.

I certainly am *very* happy with the K2 that resulted from the effort,
even 11 or so years later.

73,
Lenny W2BVH

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AC7AC

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

In reply to this post by Doug Person-3

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Rick Dettinger-3

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

I suspect that the spark guys had similar thoughts about the new
triode vacuum tubes in the 1920's. Fragile glass tubes that they
probably didn't fully understand, yet. I took an electronics class in
1967 and tubes were still the main focus. We did play around with
transistors, and managed to melt several leads. We didn't need any
Optivisors in those days.

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

On Jun 3, 2011, at 8:39 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Lo, many years ago (1950's) I said that I didn't particularly like
> working
> with transistors either. They were so tiny and fragile. Vacuum tubes
> were so
> friendly and they made a beautiful glow in the dark. Besides, many
> technologists pontificated that transistors would never be able to
> work at
> radio frequencies, much less develop useful power there.
>

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kevinr@coho.net

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

We are already starting the next stage with SIPs and SOCs. Imagine owning
your own chip fab so you can take open source IP and craft functional
blocks in silicon. Then stack and bond these units into a full blown IC.
Mix and match to craft all sorts of neat gadgets. How is your mastery of
VHDL? We will look back on SMT as a fond memory :)
73,
Kevin. KD5ONS

On Fri, 03 Jun 2011 22:00:47 -0700, Rick Dettinger <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I suspect that the spark guys had similar thoughts about the new
> triode vacuum tubes in the 1920's. Fragile glass tubes that they
> probably didn't fully understand, yet. I took an electronics class in
> 1967 and tubes were still the main focus. We did play around with
> transistors, and managed to melt several leads. We didn't need any
> Optivisors in those days.
>
> 73,
> Rick Dettinger K7MW
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Jim Low man

Re: The last of the through-hole kits

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Still, I have to hand it to the team at Elecraft for offering upgrades
to the K2 as new
capabilities became available.

When the K2 was introduced 12 years ago, we didn't have any spectrum on
the 60m
band. Elecraft wasn't in the transverter business, either. But they
came up with a
kit that provided both a transverter interface and 60m capability at the
same time,
integrating it to fit inside, and work natively with, the K2.

Only one company comes to mind that has offered any sort of upgrade
path, and
that is Ten-Tec, with its option 1, 2 and 3 upgrades, the latter of
which resulted in
the electronic equivalent of the newer Omni VI Plus. Still, any of
these upgrades
required one to ship a heavy radio back to the factory where the upgrade
was done.
With the K2, we can order the option kit and do the work ourselves.

72/73 de Jim - AD6CW

On 6/3/2011 7:01 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Eric,
>
>
> However, my hopes for additional mods or upgrades to the K2 are nil - at
> least those coming from Elecraft (that is what a mature product usually
> means). Any enhancements to my K2 will be mods of my own doing, and
> those will be done on a "one-off" basis (for my own use). I may offer
> those mods to the general K2 public, but they will not be "Elecraft
> sanctioned".
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>