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US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

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Mike Morrow-3

US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

I wrote:

>(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
> existing USB mode.

There's interesting detail about carrier versus center frequency in the *new*
Section 97.303:

---QUOTE---
(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur stations
may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the table below.
In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations transmitting
phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and
60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the center
frequency as specified in the table below. For CW emissions (emission designator
150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency...

60M BAND FREQUENCIES (KHZ)
Carrier Center
5330.5 5332.0
5346.5 5348.0
5357.0 5358.5
5371.5 5373.0
5403.5 5405.0
---END QUOTE---

Note the *requirement*: "For CW emissions ... the carrier frequency is set to
the center frequency."

For example, switching from USB Phone on 5357.0 kHz to CW on the *same* channel,
the transmitter must transmit on 5358.5 kHz. That will produce a 1500 Hz tone
in a USB receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. It appears that now a transceiver will
need to shift not only the transmitter's carrier from 5357.0 to 5358.5 kHz,
but also receiver's effective frequency up by the amount needed to produce the
desired sidetone when tuned to a 5358.5 kHz CW signal. The wording in the new
rule seems to introduce an unfortunate and valueless complexity for CW operation.

Mike / KK5F
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Mike Morrow-3

US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC

Yesterday (18 November 2011), the FCC published its approval of changes to the US
60 meter band.

http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2011/db1118/FCC-11-171A1.pdf

Summary:

(1) Use of the existing 5366.5 kHz (carrier) is removed, replaced by 5357.0 kHz
(carrier).

(2) Maximum ERP raised from 50 to 100 watts PEP.

(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
existing USB mode.

Effective 30 days after publication in the Federal Register.

Mike / KK5F
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WA2SI

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC

Yay!!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 14:37
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC

Yesterday (18 November 2011), the FCC published its approval of changes to
the US

60 meter band.

(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the

existing USB mode.

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w5tvw

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make ANY
difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
will simply occupy 10 memory slots. If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5
khz tone, that's THEIR problem, not ours. Maybe there will be some "simple
simon" type doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference" frequency of
1500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM. As I said
this ISN'T OUR WORRY.

Will be nice to have a "CW" place to go that will be unmolested by
contesters on weekends!

When is this supposed to appear in the Federal Register" anybody know?

73,

Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:13 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

I wrote:

>(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
> existing USB mode.

There's interesting detail about carrier versus center frequency in the
*new*
Section 97.303:

---QUOTE---
(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
stations
may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the table
below.
In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations
transmitting
phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and
60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the
center
frequency as specified in the table below. For CW emissions (emission
designator
150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency...

60M BAND FREQUENCIES (KHZ)
Carrier Center
5330.5 5332.0
5346.5 5348.0
5357.0 5358.5
5371.5 5373.0
5403.5 5405.0
---END QUOTE---

Note the *requirement*: "For CW emissions ... the carrier frequency is set
to
the center frequency."

For example, switching from USB Phone on 5357.0 kHz to CW on the *same*
channel,
the transmitter must transmit on 5358.5 kHz. That will produce a 1500 Hz
tone
in a USB receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. It appears that now a transceiver will
need to shift not only the transmitter's carrier from 5357.0 to 5358.5 kHz,
but also receiver's effective frequency up by the amount needed to produce
the
desired sidetone when tuned to a 5358.5 kHz CW signal. The wording in the
new
rule seems to introduce an unfortunate and valueless complexity for CW
operation.

Mike / KK5F

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Rick Dettinger-3

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

I am wondering what restrictions are placed on frequency accuracy?
Would simple QRP rigs like the Sierra or maybe a modified K1 be
suitable for operation on the 60 meter band? We are probably talking
about less that 200 Hz. deviation from the specified center frequency.
Also, I don't think that the FCC engineers have randomly monitored any
ham frequencies for at least two decades. We are now "self policing".

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:55 PM, Sandy wrote:

> The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't
> make ANY
> difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
> channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode
> which
> will simply occupy 10 memory slots. If the FCC engineers want to
> hear a 1.5
> khz tone, that's THEIR problem, not ours. Maybe there will be some
> "simple
> simon" type doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference"
> frequency of
> 1500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM. As I
> said
> this ISN'T OUR WORRY.
>
> Will be nice to have a "CW" place to go that will be unmolested by
> contesters on weekends!
>
> When is this supposed to appear in the Federal Register" anybody know?
>
> 73,
>
> Sandy W5TVW

Mike Morrow-3

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Sandy wrote:

>The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make ANY
>difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
>channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
>will simply occupy 10 memory slots.

The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission mode is
changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or the transmit
frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency. They don't shift both
the effective receive AND the transmit frequency. For example, a transceiver
tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output
when receiving a transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output when
receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is shifted
to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0 kHz, while the
transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8 kHz (for 800 Hz CW
sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the CW transmit frequency be
5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably high side tone to any USB/CW mode
receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz, anyone
sending a CW signal on that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The phone
boys will hear not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz
sidetone!

> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR problem,
> not ours.

That's got NOTHING to do with the discussion.

The new 60m rules will mandate that a CW signal be sent 1500 Hz higher than
the USB carrier frequency on the assigned channel! This is the FIRST
REQUIREMENT of this type in ALL of the history of ham radio. There are NO
ham rigs today that are set to implement this requirement when, while set to
to 5357.0 kHz, the mode switch is shifted from USB to CW!

Beyond that, since most hams will not be happy with normal use of a 1500 Hz
sidetone on 60m, new ham rigs will also need to shift the receiver frequency
higher than that being used for USB phone mode, in order to produce an 800 Hz
(or so) sidetone after the mode switch is taken from USB to CW.

So...nothing in this discussion concerns any FCC desire for a particular
receiver sidetone, but rather, additional issues that must be addressed
by ham rig designers for multi-mode 60m operation that are significantly
different than have ever been encountered.

Mike / KK5F

Maybe there will be some "simple

>simon" type doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference" frequency of
>1500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM. As I said
>this ISN'T OUR WORRY.
>
>Will be nice to have a "CW" place to go that will be unmolested by
>contesters on weekends!
>
>When is this supposed to appear in the Federal Register" anybody know?
>
>73,
>
>Sandy W5TVW
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Morrow
>Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:13 PM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues
>
>I wrote:
>
>>(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to the
>> existing USB mode.
>
>There's interesting detail about carrier versus center frequency in the
>*new*
>Section 97.303:
>
>---QUOTE---
>(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
>stations
>may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the table
>below.
>In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations
>transmitting
>phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and
>60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the
>center
>frequency as specified in the table below. For CW emissions (emission
>designator
>150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency...
>
> 60M BAND FREQUENCIES (KHZ)
> Carrier Center
> 5330.5 5332.0
> 5346.5 5348.0
> 5357.0 5358.5
> 5371.5 5373.0
> 5403.5 5405.0
>---END QUOTE---
>
>Note the *requirement*: "For CW emissions ... the carrier frequency is set
>to
>the center frequency."
>
>For example, switching from USB Phone on 5357.0 kHz to CW on the *same*
>channel,
>the transmitter must transmit on 5358.5 kHz. That will produce a 1500 Hz
>tone
>in a USB receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. It appears that now a transceiver will
>need to shift not only the transmitter's carrier from 5357.0 to 5358.5 kHz,
>but also receiver's effective frequency up by the amount needed to produce
>the
>desired sidetone when tuned to a 5358.5 kHz CW signal. The wording in the
>new
>rule seems to introduce an unfortunate and valueless complexity for CW
>operation.
>
>Mike / KK5F
>

Matthew Pitts

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Mike,

This new requirement may not be driven entirely by the FCC; isn't 60 meters controlled by the NTIA? Maybe they are the ones that stipulated the shift in frequency; I don't know.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

Sent from my Wireless Device

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:47:34
To: <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Mike Morrow <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Sandy wrote:

>The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make ANY
>difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
>channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
>will simply occupy 10 memory slots.

The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission mode is
changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or the transmit
frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency. They don't shift both
the effective receive AND the transmit frequency. For example, a transceiver
tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output
when receiving a transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output when
receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is shifted
to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0 kHz, while the
transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8 kHz (for 800 Hz CW
sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the CW transmit frequency be
5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably high side tone to any USB/CW mode
receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz, anyone
sending a CW signal on that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The phone
boys will hear not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz
sidetone!

> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR problem,
> not ours.

That's got NOTHING to do with the discussion.

The new 60m rules will mandate that a CW signal be sent 1500 Hz higher than
the USB carrier frequency on the assigned channel! This is the FIRST
REQUIREMENT of this type in ALL of the history of ham radio. There are NO
ham rigs today that are set to implement this requirement when, while set to
to 5357.0 kHz, the mode switch is shifted from USB to CW!

Beyond that, since most hams will not be happy with normal use of a 1500 Hz
sidetone on 60m, new ham rigs will also need to shift the receiver frequency
higher than that being used for USB phone mode, in order to produce an 800 Hz
(or so) sidetone after the mode switch is taken from USB to CW.

So...nothing in this discussion concerns any FCC desire for a particular
receiver sidetone, but rather, additional issues that must be addressed
by ham rig designers for multi-mode 60m operation that are significantly
different than have ever been encountered.

Mike / KK5F

Maybe there will be some "simple

w5tvw

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Rick Dettinger-3

As to frequency tolerances, I have no idea. The commercial SSB tolerances
used to be around 20Hz. I don't know what it is now. There isn't anything
specified in the NRPM as to tolerances and I would assume the FCC is
accepting whatever the precision of the current bunch of Japanese radios
type approved are at present. I would not press this issue as we are likely
to end up on the short end of the stick in some technical brawl as to "what"
the tolerances "should be", in all probability by "non technical" FCC types!

My brain tells me to "Let the sleeping dog lie!" in this case.

73,
Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Rick Dettinger
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:24 PM
To: Sandy
Cc: Mike Morrow ; [hidden email] ; TETRODE List ; Old Tube Radios
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

I am wondering what restrictions are placed on frequency accuracy?
Would simple QRP rigs like the Sierra or maybe a modified K1 be
suitable for operation on the 60 meter band? We are probably talking
about less th at 200 Hz. deviation from the specified center frequency.
Also, I don't think that the FCC engineers have randomly monitored any
ham frequencies for at least two decades. We are now "self policing".

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:55 PM, Sandy wrote:

> The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make
> ANY
> difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
> channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
> will simply occupy 10 memory slots. If the FCC engineers want to hear a
> 1.5
> khz tone, that's THEIR problem, not ours. Maybe there will be some
> "simple
> simon" type doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference" frequency
> of
> 1500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM. As I said
> this ISN'T OUR WORRY.
>
> Will be nice to have a "CW" place to go that will be unmolested by
> contesters on weekends!
>
> When is this supposed to appear in the Federal Register" anybody know?
>
> 73,
>
> Sandy W5TVW

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2092/4626 - Release Date: 11/19/11

______________________________________________________________
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w5tvw

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

My FT-990 and my old IC-735 both indicate the "carrier" frequency emitted by
the radio. In the "commercial realm" the old SSB channels were designated
as to the "suppressed carrier frequency" the channels being upper sideband
as given for such operation in the marine and aeronautical assignments.
Sometimes "center frequency" assignments were listed but this was a constant
source of confusion, so they finally listed "suppressed carrier frequency".
The "regulators" is this case the FCC, want CW to use the center frequency.
This was an arbitrary decision to keep CW in the center of the channel
bandwidth.
My YAESU FT-990 and other sets "remember" the mode and selectivity in memory
as well as the carrier frequency. Therefore it is necessary to program the
CW channels and USB channels as prescribed (center frequency OR carrier
frequency) if you want to lesson the confusion for CW and USB assignments.
Just programming ONE frequency and shifting between CW and USB modes WILL
NOT CUT IT! I strongly recommend those who plan on CW and USB operation
both do this! It will keep you out of trouble and keep the peace on the
band better. This is one of the "minus points" of "Channelized" operation.

73,

Sandy W5TVW
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 3:47 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Sandy wrote:

>The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make
>ANY
>difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
>channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
>will simply occupy 10 memory slots.

The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission mode
is
changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or the transmit
frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency. They don't shift
both
the effective receive AND the transmit frequency. For example, a
transceiver
tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output
when receiving a transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output
when
receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is
shifted
to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0 kHz, while the
transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8 kHz (for 800 Hz CW
sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the CW transmit frequency be
5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably high side tone to any USB/CW
mode
receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz,
anyone
sending a CW signal on that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The
phone
boys will hear not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz
sidetone!

> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR problem,
> not ours.

That's got NOTHING to do with the discussion.

The new 60m rules will mandate that a CW signal be sent 1500 Hz higher than
the USB carrier frequency on the assigned channel! This is the FIRST
REQUIREMENT of this type in ALL of the history of ham radio. There are NO
ham rigs today that are set to implement this requirement when, while set to
to 5357.0 kHz, the mode switch is shifted from USB to CW!

Beyond that, since most hams will not be happy with normal use of a 1500 Hz
sidetone on 60m, new ham rigs will also need to shift the receiver frequency
higher than that being used for USB phone mode, in order to produce an 800
Hz
(or so) sidetone after the mode switch is taken from USB to CW.

So...nothing in this discussion concerns any FCC desire for a particular
receiver sidetone, but rather, additional issues that must be addressed
by ham rig designers for multi-mode 60m operation that are significantly
different than have ever been encountered.

Mike / KK5F

Maybe there will be some "simple

>simon" type doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference" frequency
>of
>1500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM. As I said
>this ISN'T OUR WORRY.
>
>Will be nice to have a "CW" place to go that will be unmolested by
>contesters on weekends!
>
>When is this supposed to appear in the Federal Register" anybody know?
>
>73,
>
>Sandy W5TVW
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Morrow
>Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:13 PM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues
>
>I wrote:
>
>>(3) Three emission modes (CW, RTTY, Data) are authorized in addition to
>>the
>> existing USB mode.
>
>There's interesting detail about carrier versus center frequency in the
>*new*
>Section 97.303:
>
>---QUOTE---
>(h) 60 m band: (1) In the 5330.5-5406.4 kHz band (60 m band), amateur
>stations
>may transmit only on the five center frequencies specified in the table
>below.
>In order to meet this requirement, control operators of stations
>transmitting
>phone, data, and RTTY emissions (emission designators 2K80J3E, 2K80J2D, and
>60H0J2B, respectively) may set the carrier frequency 1.5 kHz below the
>center
>frequency as specified in the table below. For CW emissions (emission
>designator
>150HA1A), the carrier frequency is set to the center frequency...
>
> 60M BAND FREQUENCIES (KHZ)
> Carrier Center
> 5330.5 5332.0
> 5346.5 5348.0
> 5357.0 5358.5
> 5371.5 5373.0
> 5403.5 5405.0
>---END QUOTE---
>
>Note the *requirement*: "For CW emissions ... the carrier frequency is set
>to
>the center frequency."
>
>For example, switching from USB Phone on 5357.0 kHz to CW on the *same*
>channel,
>the transmitter must transmit on 5358.5 kHz. That will produce a 1500 Hz
>tone
>in a USB receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. It appears that now a transceiver
>will
>need to shift not only the transmitter's carrier from 5357.0 to 5358.5 kHz,
>but also receiver's effective frequency up by the amount needed to produce
>the
>desired sidetone when tuned to a 5358.5 kHz CW signal. The wording in the
>new
>rule seems to introduce an unfortunate and valueless complexity for CW
>operation.
>
>Mike / KK5F
>

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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2092/4626 - Release Date: 11/19/11

______________________________________________________________
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Mike Harris

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't this what the VFO knob is for.
Set the dial frequency to 5357kHz for USB, change to CW and set the dial
frequency to 5358.5kHz

Regards.

Mike VP8NO

On 19/11/2011 18:47, Mike Morrow wrote:

> Sandy wrote:
>
>> The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make ANY
>> difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
>> channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
>> will simply occupy 10 memory slots.
>
> The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission mode is
> changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or the transmit
> frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency. They don't shift both
> the effective receive AND the transmit frequency. For example, a transceiver
> tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output
> when receiving a transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output when
> receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is shifted
> to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0 kHz, while the
> transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8 kHz (for 800 Hz CW
> sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the CW transmit frequency be
> 5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably high side tone to any USB/CW mode
> receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz, anyone
> sending a CW signal on that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The phone
> boys will hear not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz
> sidetone!
>
>> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR problem,
>> not ours.
>
> That's got NOTHING to do with the discussion.
>
> The new 60m rules will mandate that a CW signal be sent 1500 Hz higher than
> the USB carrier frequency on the assigned channel! This is the FIRST
> REQUIREMENT of this type in ALL of the history of ham radio. There are NO
> ham rigs today that are set to implement this requirement when, while set to
> to 5357.0 kHz, the mode switch is shifted from USB to CW!
>
> Beyond that, since most hams will not be happy with normal use of a 1500 Hz
> sidetone on 60m, new ham rigs will also need to shift the receiver frequency
> higher than that being used for USB phone mode, in order to produce an 800 Hz
> (or so) sidetone after the mode switch is taken from USB to CW.
>
> So...nothing in this discussion concerns any FCC desire for a particular
> receiver sidetone, but rather, additional issues that must be addressed
> by ham rig designers for multi-mode 60m operation that are significantly
> different than have ever been encountered.
>
> Mike / KK5F

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Mike,

Not all transceivers shift the transmit frequency.

The Elecraft K2 and K3 dial always indicate the carrier frequency, and
what is displayed does not change when changing modes. With Elecraft,
the pitch of signals will change when changing between CW and SSB.

OTOH, my Yaesu transceivers do shift the displayed frequency when
changing between SSB and CW, but they shift the receiver - the display
will indicate the transmitted carrier frequency. If you were receiving
a signal in SSB mode and shift to CW, the pitch will stay the same.

With either Elecraft or Yaesu, there is nothing complicated to figure
out - set the displayed frequency to the center channel frequency - but
with the Yaesu, one must do that AFTER setting to CW mode. With the
Elecraft gear, you can set the frequency in whichever mode you choose,
then switch to CW.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/19/2011 4:47 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

> The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission
> mode is changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or
> the transmit frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency.
> They don't shift both the effective receive AND the transmit
> frequency. For example, a transceiver tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial
> in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output when receiving a
> transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output when
> receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is
> shifted to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0
> kHz, while the transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8
> kHz (for 800 Hz CW sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the
> CW transmit frequency be 5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably
> high side tone to any USB/CW mode receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you
> are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz, anyone sending a CW signal on
> that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The phone boys will hear
> not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz sidetone!

Matthew Pitts

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Don,

You're right, for transceivers that implement the 60 meter band in the VFO; not all compatible transceivers do. My FT-817 has 5 memory channels for 60m, thus not much chance for me ever using the new modes on it; I guess I'll have to add the 60m module to my K2 for that.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

Sent from my Wireless Device

-----Original Message-----
From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:44:41
To: <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Mike,

Not all transceivers shift the transmit frequency.

The Elecraft K2 and K3 dial always indicate the carrier frequency, and
what is displayed does not change when changing modes. With Elecraft,
the pitch of signals will change when changing between CW and SSB.

OTOH, my Yaesu transceivers do shift the displayed frequency when
changing between SSB and CW, but they shift the receiver - the display
will indicate the transmitted carrier frequency. If you were receiving
a signal in SSB mode and shift to CW, the pitch will stay the same.

With either Elecraft or Yaesu, there is nothing complicated to figure
out - set the displayed frequency to the center channel frequency - but
with the Yaesu, one must do that AFTER setting to CW mode. With the
Elecraft gear, you can set the frequency in whichever mode you choose,
then switch to CW.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 11/19/2011 4:47 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:

w5tvw

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Matthew Pitts

WHO CARES? he FCC is the entity that controls Amateur operation and they
have the last word.
73,
Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Matthew Pitts
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:09 PM
To: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Mike,

This new requirement may not be driven entirely by the FCC; isn't 60 meters
controlled by the NTIA? Maybe they are the ones that stipulated the shift in
frequency; I don't know.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

Sent from my Wireless Device

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Morrow <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 16:47:34
To: <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: Mike Morrow <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Sandy wrote:

>The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make
>ANY
>difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
>channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
>will simply occupy 10 memory slots.

The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission mode
is
changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or the transmit
frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency. They don't shift
both
the effective receive AND the transmit frequency. For example, a
transceiver
tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output
when receiving a transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output
when
receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is
shifted
to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0 kHz, while the
transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8 kHz (for 800 Hz CW
sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the CW transmit frequency be
5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably high side tone to any USB/CW
mode
receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz,
anyone
sending a CW signal on that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The
phone
boys will hear not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz
sidetone!

> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR problem,
> not ours.

That's got NOTHING to do with the discussion.

The new 60m rules will mandate that a CW signal be sent 1500 Hz higher than
the USB carrier frequency on the assigned channel! This is the FIRST
REQUIREMENT of this type in ALL of the history of ham radio. There are NO
ham rigs today that are set to implement this requirement when, while set to
to 5357.0 kHz, the mode switch is shifted from USB to CW!

Beyond that, since most hams will not be happy with normal use of a 1500 Hz
sidetone on 60m, new ham rigs will also need to shift the receiver frequency
higher than that being used for USB phone mode, in order to produce an 800
Hz
(or so) sidetone after the mode switch is taken from USB to CW.

So...nothing in this discussion concerns any FCC desire for a particular
receiver sidetone, but rather, additional issues that must be addressed
by ham rig designers for multi-mode 60m operation that are significantly
different than have ever been encountered.

Mike / KK5F

Maybe there will be some "simple

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2092/4626 - Release Date: 11/19/11

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Mike Harris

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Not if CONFIG: CW WGHT 5 is selected Automatic VFO offset SSB/CW. The
indicated carrier frequency will vary by the amount of the selected
sidetone.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 19/11/2011 19:44, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Mike,
>
> Not all transceivers shift the transmit frequency.
>
> The Elecraft K2 and K3 dial always indicate the carrier frequency, and
> what is displayed does not change when changing modes. With Elecraft,
> the pitch of signals will change when changing between CW and SSB.
>
> OTOH, my Yaesu transceivers do shift the displayed frequency when
> changing between SSB and CW, but they shift the receiver - the display
> will indicate the transmitted carrier frequency. If you were receiving
> a signal in SSB mode and shift to CW, the pitch will stay the same.
>
> With either Elecraft or Yaesu, there is nothing complicated to figure
> out - set the displayed frequency to the center channel frequency - but
> with the Yaesu, one must do that AFTER setting to CW mode. With the
> Elecraft gear, you can set the frequency in whichever mode you choose,
> then switch to CW.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 11/19/2011 4:47 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission
>> mode is changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or
>> the transmit frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency.
>> They don't shift both the effective receive AND the transmit
>> frequency. For example, a transceiver tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial
>> in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output when receiving a
>> transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output when
>> receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is
>> shifted to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0
>> kHz, while the transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8
>> kHz (for 800 Hz CW sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the
>> CW transmit frequency be 5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably
>> high side tone to any USB/CW mode receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you
>> are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz, anyone sending a CW signal on
>> that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The phone boys will hear
>> not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz sidetone!

w5tvw

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Mike Harris

You CAN do it that way...BUT.....if you do....BE careful. If you make a
mistake it may be costly to everyone who uses the band. I'm sure they will
be doing at least a "sample monitoring" session during the early days after
the allocations are final. THESE ARE "CHANNELIZED" frequencies and they
have a tendency to be sure you are compliant with their "rules"! They may
not be, but why take a chance. It's too easy to be in the wrong place at
the wrong time.

I'd imagine SOMEONE is gonna be a bit "touchy" the first few weeks after
this goes into effect. If you have the memories..USE THEM! No "offense"
meant by above remarks!

73,

Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Harris
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 4:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Maybe I'm missing something but isn't this what the VFO knob is for.
Set the dial frequency to 5357kHz for USB, change to CW and set the dial
frequency to 5358.5kHz

Regards.

Mike VP8NO

On 19/11/2011 18:47, Mike Morrow wrote:

> Sandy wrote:
>
>> The CW signal must be radiated on the center frequency. This won't make
>> ANY
>> difference except that you will have two memory settings for the same
>> channel. One for SSB and data and RTTY modes, and one for CW mode which
>> will simply occupy 10 memory slots.
>
> The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission
> mode is
> changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or the transmit
> frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency. They don't shift
> both
> the effective receive AND the transmit frequency. For example, a
> transceiver
> tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF
> output
> when receiving a transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output
> when
> receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is
> shifted
> to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0 kHz, while the
> transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8 kHz (for 800 Hz CW
> sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the CW transmit frequency
> be
> 5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably high side tone to any USB/CW
> mode
> receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz,
> anyone
> sending a CW signal on that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The
> phone
> boys will hear not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500
> Hz
> sidetone!
>
>> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR problem,
>> not ours.
>
> That's got NOTHING to do with the discussion.
>
> The new 60m rules will mandate that a CW signal be sent 1500 Hz higher
> than
> the USB carrier frequency on the assigned channel! This is the FIRST
> REQUIREMENT of this type in ALL of the history of ham radio. There are NO
> ham rigs today that are set to implement this requirement when, while set
> to
> to 5357.0 kHz, the mode switch is shifted from USB to CW!
>
> Beyond that, since most hams will not be happy with normal use of a 1500
> Hz
> sidetone on 60m, new ham rigs will also need to shift the receiver
> frequency
> higher than that being used for USB phone mode, in order to produce an 800
> Hz
> (or so) sidetone after the mode switch is taken from USB to CW.
>
> So...nothing in this discussion concerns any FCC desire for a particular
> receiver sidetone, but rather, additional issues that must be addressed
> by ham rig designers for multi-mode 60m operation that are significantly
> different than have ever been encountered.
>
> Mike / KK5F

Phil Kane-2

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by w5tvw

On 11/19/2011 12:55 PM, Sandy wrote:

> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR
> problem, not ours. Maybe there will be some "simple simon" type
> doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference" frequency of
> 8881500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM.

This anomaly isn't the FCC's doing - it's NTIA's doing. It's
their band, their channels, and they are calling the shots.
We're lucky to get any 60 meters at all. I'm intimately
familiar with how that worked.

-- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
(FCC District Director - Retired)
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w5tvw

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

As usual with the government and all the "ABC" agencies, there are some
bureaucrats who think they "know" but really "Don't" know or have a clue.
Too bad it's that way, but unfortunately, we, the end users have to roll
with the punches. Hopefully no one screws up and pops the "big bubble" for
all. Same thing has been going on concerning the Coast Guard and the "600
meters" allocations to be!

It's like a bunch of 3rd graders in a sand box!

73,
Sandy W5TVW

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Kane
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

On 11/19/2011 12:55 PM, Sandy wrote:

> If the FCC engineers want to hear a 1.5 khz tone, that's THEIR
> problem, not ours. Maybe there will be some "simple simon" type
> doing any monitoring and he will have a "reference" frequency of
> 8881500 hz. plus or minus what ever the "tolerances" are in PPM.

This anomaly isn't the FCC's doing - it's NTIA's doing. It's
their band, their channels, and they are calling the shots.
We're lucky to get any 60 meters at all. I'm intimately
familiar with how that worked.

-- 73 de K2ASP - Phil Kane
Elecraft K2/100 s/n 5402
(FCC District Director - Retired)
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1872 / Virus Database: 2092/4626 - Release Date: 11/19/11

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wayne burdick

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

Administrator

When the dust settles on this change, and we have some agreement on
how the transceiver should handle it, we'll make any needed changes to
both the K3 and KX3 firmware.

I'd like to be the first to make a CW QSO on this band!

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Bob Nielsen-2

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

In reply to this post by Matthew Pitts

For those rigs with fixed memory channels on 60 m, it might make sense to use a keyed audio oscillator in SSB mode.

Bob, N7XY

On Nov 19, 2011, at 2:51 PM, Matthew Pitts wrote:

> Don,
>
> You're right, for transceivers that implement the 60 meter band in the VFO; not all compatible transceivers do. My FT-817 has 5 memory channels for 60m, thus not much chance for me ever using the new modes on it; I guess I'll have to add the 60m module to my K2 for that.
>
> Matthew Pitts
> N8OHU
>
> Sent from my Wireless Device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> Sender: [hidden email]
> Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:44:41
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Reply-To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues
>
> Mike,
>
> Not all transceivers shift the transmit frequency.
>
> The Elecraft K2 and K3 dial always indicate the carrier frequency, and
> what is displayed does not change when changing modes. With Elecraft,
> the pitch of signals will change when changing between CW and SSB.
>
> OTOH, my Yaesu transceivers do shift the displayed frequency when
> changing between SSB and CW, but they shift the receiver - the display
> will indicate the transmitted carrier frequency. If you were receiving
> a signal in SSB mode and shift to CW, the pitch will stay the same.
>
> With either Elecraft or Yaesu, there is nothing complicated to figure
> out - set the displayed frequency to the center channel frequency - but
> with the Yaesu, one must do that AFTER setting to CW mode. With the
> Elecraft gear, you can set the frequency in whichever mode you choose,
> then switch to CW.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 11/19/2011 4:47 PM, Mike Morrow wrote:
>> The point to be taken is that most HAM transceivers, when the emission
>> mode is changed from USB to CW, shift either the effective receive or
>> the transmit frequency by the desired amount of sidetone frequency.
>> They don't shift both the effective receive AND the transmit
>> frequency. For example, a transceiver tuned to 5357.0 kHz on the dial
>> in USB mode will produce a zero Hz AF output when receiving a
>> transmitted signal of 5357.0 kHz, and a 1500 Hz AF output when
>> receiving a transmitted signal of 5358.5 kHz. When the transceiver is
>> shifted to CW mode, the receiver frequency typically remains 5357.0
>> kHz, while the transmitter frequency is shifted up to typically 5357.8
>> kHz (for 800 Hz CW sidetone). But the new FCC rules require that the
>> CW transmit frequency be 5358.5 kHz, which will produce an undesirably
>> high side tone to any USB/CW mode receiver set to 5357.0 kHz. If you
>> are in a USB phone QSO on 5357.0 kHz, anyone sending a CW signal on
>> that channel must do that using 5358.5 kHz. The phone boys will hear
>> not the typically 800 Hz sidetone, but rather a high 1500 Hz sidetone!
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

_____
N7XY DX Cluster Node - telnet to n7xy.net, port 7300

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John Oppenheimer

Re: US 60 Meter Band Changes Approved by FCC - CW Issues

As I read the text, the "shall" operative words are: "Amateur operators
shall ensure that their emissions do not occupy more than 2.8 kHz
centered on each of these center frequencies." This is consistent with
the ruling for each ~2.8kHz wide SSB transmitted signal to be within the
five 2.8kHz allocated channels.

Therefore, if above is the actual CW ruling, CW is not necessarily
channeled, it's more like having five 2.8kHz CW bands within the 60M
allocation. There is even room for split operation.

Using CW will be easy, for the first allocation, set your VFO to any
frequency within the range of 5330.6 and 5333.4 and go!

John KN5L
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123