USB Support - K3, K2?
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The USB (Universal Serial Bus) Interface, is in
fact a very modern high-speed interface. It actually operates at 3 speed levels, and as many data and control levels schemas. It has a Slow, Faster, and Hi-Speed protocol form. It can, or cannot, provide power to an external device - depending on what external device needs (PC mouse vs a large external disk drive, or complex printer) One can power an external USB device - off the USB port itself, or you can power an external device (ex -a storeage device) by itself. The USB Interface, allows PC system designers to finally plan for much higher-speed external new devices - with this modern 2007 data comms interface. RS-232C Serial - is approx. 50 years old this year (via TTY & paper tape days & old Bell Labs modems) A very clear USB primer can be found at: http://www.howstuffworks.com/usb6.htm Seems to me that a future version of the K3, should have it! Fred, N3CSY ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Speaking of USB...
In the news today...Wireless USB will help cut the cords - USAToday http://www.usatoday.com/tech/wireless/2007-08-07-wirelessusb_N.htm Regards, Dick - KA5KKT/4 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: USB Support - K3, K2?
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In reply to this post by Fred (FL)
This is a bit of a rant, I must admit, I am mystified by the desire for
USB inside an HF radio. I can understand the need, and value it myself, of being able to plug in a usb cable to a computer and hook a radio up to a computer. But requiring the radio to have a noisy USB chip inside it makes no sense. A cable that goes from the radio to the computer and has USB on the computer end provides 100% of the functionality necessary, reduces cost of the radio, and imcreases options (I.e., I can also control the radi with a microprocessor, or with an RF data device, both of which interface with serial). Aside from USB, there are many digital bus standards opewn to amateurs an uC controller users...even a $1 PIC can handle the Dallas Semiconductor 1-wire interface, the I^2C interface, and the SPI interface. (In fact, I would suspect that AUXBUS is either SPI or a variant.) Though there are PIC chips with USB in them, they are more expensive, and asymmetric: the host side of the interface, which is what you need to be able to control a USB radio, is much more burdensome and generally done only on PC-sized computers. Others have mentioned ethernet (and Orion and Kenwood have done it), though the attendant noise is an issue, and Bluetooth RF interface. All of these could easily be layered on top of one of the 1- to 3-wire serial interfaces mentioned above, at low cost. And we already know that Elecraft offers a bump-in-the-cord USB interface already for a low cost. As Simon HB9DRV points out, USB may be useful for dumping IF data for a spectrum analyzer, but I suspect that a baseband signal buffered from the IF itself would be better than digitizing it inside the K3. For smaller devices such as HT's, it might be nice to have the standard camera-sized USB connector some day, but a 4-pin mic jack cable with USB on the other end would do exactly the same job. The place USB is useful on other small devices such as my miniradiosolutions VNA, mostly because it provides power. But even on those devices, the transfer is still exactly serial, and RS232. The isochronous transfer mode isn't used, And the power is not very clean: the SoftRock folks abandoned USB power for just that reason. Just about every USB device that doesn't use isochronous or bulk data mode (I.e., except for video cameras, speakers, mics, and disks) is just a plain old 2-wire serial device. There are a small number of USB chips from FTDI and others and product designers pick one, pay a royalty and gett a device id, and then purchase a stock RS232/USB driver which is bound to that device id. So, on Windows you get Plug-and-Pray, hoping the manufacturer consents to keep providing their device-locked driver, when in fact, there is no real driver and all the driver-level communications is just RS232. As a consumer, you get the power convenience, and the recognition at plug-in time, but you pay royalty cost, and you pay in pain at driver install time, and you are out of luck when the next version of Windows comes out and your manufacturer is gone. For cost reasons, the device ID just isn't worth it on the small volumes we see on ham items. I can only suspect that the USB marketing board has done too good a job. Leigh/WA5ZNU _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote:
> This is a bit of a rant, I must admit, I am mystified by the desire for > USB inside an HF radio. Agreed. From the point of view of the manufacturer, there is the big headache of having to provide drivers for the various operating systems -- and versions of operating systems. Do we want Elecraft to spend valuable staff time making sure that working drivers are available for Windows 95 through Vista, the various Mac OS versions, Linux, and who knows what? And then when the driver doesn't install correctly, they will be asked to help, even if the problem is caused by some kind of resource conflict, spyware, or whatever. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On 8/8/07, Vic K2VCO <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Agreed. From the point of view of the manufacturer, there is the big > headache of having to provide drivers for the various operating systems > -- and versions of operating systems. That's the key point, I think. The argument against having noisy chips inside radios could equally be applied to serial interfaces (in fact, ISTR the KIO2 had an option to disable it because it created a small amount of noise.) There are people who have argued for having an Ethernet interface and built-in web server inside the radio. Personally I think computers and radios are getting far too inter-dependent and there is a danger that the modern generation of radios will become obsolete before yesterday's models simply because the computers necessary to use them are no longer made or supported. -- Julian, G4ILO K2 s/n: 392 K3 s/n: ??? G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com Ham-Directory: www.ham-directory.com _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
Julian, G4ILO. K2 #392 K3 #222 KX3 #110
* G4ILO's Shack - http://www.g4ilo.com * KComm - http://www.g4ilo.com/kcomm.html * KTune - http://www.g4ilo.com/ktune.html |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
Well said Vic.
Warning - opinionated reply below <G>. I believe the incentive for advocating USB in the K3 (or any other radio) is grounded in the fact that serial ports are disappearing from laptop (and some desktop) computers. Serial ports make more sense to me - the means to communicate with the port is native in every operating system in current use (and is likely to continue to be), and it is the duty of the application to make the communications happen. So you choose an application that supports the radio and runs on your chosen OS. That is much different than depending on the radio manufacturer to provide support for a myriad of USB drivers whose requirements will likely change with the next version of the operating system. Serial will drive a long distance, so if you want to control the radio in a far corner of the home, all you need do is run a long serial cable - with USB, the distance is limited. Serial ports may be disappearing from laptops, but the technology is uncomplicated and well proven and has fewer roadblocks and dependencies than solutions like USB. Yes, Ethernet would be a better choice for those who have computer networks installed already, but a small inexpensive computer (with a serial port) dedicated to the radio installation can easily provide that level of connectivity - Simon Brown's HRD does provide for such remote operation. I have seem several refurbished 2 GHz/512k/40GB IBM computers with *2* serial ports advertised recently in the $200 range. A computer like that would provide more power than needed for most situations, but then I already have more computers than I need. 73, Don W3FPR Vic K2VCO wrote: > Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: > >> This is a bit of a rant, I must admit, I am mystified by the desire >> for USB inside an HF radio. > > Agreed. From the point of view of the manufacturer, there is the big > headache of having to provide drivers for the various operating systems > -- and versions of operating systems. Do we want Elecraft to spend > valuable staff time making sure that working drivers are available for > Windows 95 through Vista, the various Mac OS versions, Linux, and who > knows what? > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
On Wed, 8 Aug 2007, Vic K2VCO wrote:
> Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: > >> This is a bit of a rant, I must admit, I am mystified by the desire for USB >> inside an HF radio. > > And then when the driver doesn't install correctly, they will be asked to > help, even if the problem is caused by some kind of resource conflict, > spyware, or whatever. And they won't when it happens with the adpater they supply? I agree that having the USB inside the radio could be a problem....but if they sell an adapterm there is some responsibility for them to support it. If that's not the case, I can see situations where concept of circular guilt and it doesn't live here will operate. 73 k3hrn Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
On Wed, 8 Aug 2007, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> I have seem several refurbished 2 GHz/512k/40GB IBM computers with *2* serial > ports advertised recently in the $200 range. A computer like that would > provide more power than needed for most situations, but then I already have > more computers than I need. And so do I...with no room for any more, and no money to power yet another watt burner. It would seem to me that of all the solutions, the external ding-dong adapter may be the least objectionable of all. 73 k3hrn Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Thom LaCosta
Thom LaCosta wrote:
> On Wed, 8 Aug 2007, Vic K2VCO wrote: >> And then when the driver doesn't install correctly, they will be asked >> to help, even if the problem is caused by some kind of resource >> conflict, spyware, or whatever. > > > And they won't when it happens with the adpater they supply? > > I agree that having the USB inside the radio could be a problem....but > if they sell an adapterm there is some responsibility for them to > support it. This is possibly an argument for them *not* supplying an adapter and letting it be the user's responsibility. Reselling an adapter is a courtesy -- they've tested it, they know it talks to the radio. The driver is the adapter manufacturer's responsibility. But if this seems likely to lead to bad feelings or finger pointing, then they should leave it up to the user to get an adapter if needed. -- 73, Vic, K2VCO Fresno CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Wed, 8 Aug 2007, Vic K2VCO wrote:
> Thom LaCosta wrote: > >>> And then when the driver doesn't install correctly, they will be asked to >>> help, even if the problem is caused by some kind of resource conflict, >>> spyware, or whatever. >> >> >> And they won't when it happens with the adpater they supply? >> > > This is possibly an argument for them *not* supplying an adapter and letting > it be the user's responsibility. > > Reselling an adapter is a courtesy -- they've tested it, they know it talks > to the radio. The driver is the adapter manufacturer's responsibility. But > if this seems likely to lead to bad feelings or finger pointing, then they > should leave it up to the user to get an adapter if needed. Hard for me to accept they would simply sell it as a courtesy....by selling it, they are implying it works. I wouldn't do that, unless I had run a test with a specific computer and specific OS. I think it's a matter of Elecraft realizing that newer computers may not have a serial port. I suspect their tests of the adpater lead them to the conclusion that it would work in a high enough per centage of the times that they could offer it. I don't think any of can really say that they will and won't do, could and should do, etc. I think they were between a rock and a hard place ... they produce a radio that uses a computer interface that is not readily available on most new computers. 73 k3hrn Thom,EIEIO Email, Internet, Electronic Information Officer www.baltimorehon.com/ Home of the Baltimore Lexicon www.tlchost.net/hosting/ Web Hosting as low as 3.49/month _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]> To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 12:54 PM Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB Support - K3, K2? > Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: > >> This is a bit of a rant, I must admit, I am mystified by the desire for >> USB inside an HF radio. > > Agreed. From the point of view of the manufacturer, there is the big > headache of having to provide drivers for the various operating systems -- > and versions of operating systems. Do we want Elecraft to spend valuable > staff time making sure that working drivers are available for Windows 95 > through Vista, the various Mac OS versions, Linux, and who knows what? Ok, I finally got pulled into this debate; in the case of Linux and most likely MacOS X, if the USB Chip is supported by the OS Kernel, there won't be a problem. I know the FTDI chips are supported natively in Linux (not sure what kernel version offhand) from reading it on several Yahoo Groups that I'm in that are part of projects that use that chipset. Matthew Pitts N8OHU K2 #5956 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
>I believe the incentive for advocating USB in the K3 (or any other >radio) is grounded in the fact that serial ports are disappearing >from laptop (and some desktop) computers. Yep. >Serial ports make more sense to me - the means to communicate with >the port is native in every operating system in current use (and is >likely to continue to be), and it is the duty of the application to >make the communications happen. So you choose an application that >supports the radio and runs on your chosen OS. That is much >different than depending on the radio manufacturer to provide >support for a myriad of USB drivers whose requirements will likely >change with the next version of the operating system. Very true, although this doesn't need to be the case. FireWire and video cameras proves that. No special drivers necessary. >Serial will drive a long distance, so if you want to control the >radio in a far corner of the home, all you need do is run a long >serial cable - with USB, the distance is limited. There's definitely an argument for serial ports here, but unfortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it), Ethernet solves this problem and offers a potentially unlimited control distance over the Internet. No drivers necessary, just a telnet program. >Serial ports may be disappearing from laptops, but the technology is >uncomplicated and well proven and has fewer roadblocks and >dependencies than solutions like USB. I completely agree. >Yes, Ethernet would be a better choice for those who have computer >networks installed already, but a small inexpensive computer (with a >serial port) dedicated to the radio installation can easily provide >that level of connectivity - Simon Brown's HRD does provide for such >remote operation. A dumb terminal could theoretically work. >I have seem several refurbished 2 GHz/512k/40GB IBM computers with >*2* serial ports advertised recently in the $200 range. A computer >like that would provide more power than needed for most situations, >but then I already have more computers than I need. Yep. And you can buy serial port PCI cards. I like the USB interface because it lacks any issues with IRQs. That's a huge advantage over running 3 or 4 serial ports. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: USB Support - K3, K2?
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In reply to this post by Matthew D. Pitts
I agree with you on Linux, and the quoted text below about it isn't
mine. If Elecraft offers a working USB dongle, that is sufficient USB support for me. Leigh/WA5ZNU On Wed, 8 Aug 2007 1:37 pm, Matthew D. Pitts wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]> > To: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]> > Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2007 12:54 PM > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] USB Support - K3, K2? > > >> Leigh L Klotz, Jr. wrote: >> >>> This is a bit of a rant, I must admit, I am mystified by the desire >>> for USB inside an HF radio. >> >> Agreed. From the point of view of the manufacturer, there is the big >> headache of having to provide drivers for the various operating >> systems -- and versions of operating systems. Do we want Elecraft to >> spend valuable staff time making sure that working drivers are >> available for Windows 95 through Vista, the various Mac OS versions, >> Linux, and who knows what? > > Ok, I finally got pulled into this debate; in the case of Linux and > most likely MacOS X, if the USB Chip is supported by the OS Kernel, > there won't be a problem. I know the FTDI chips are supported natively > in Linux (not sure what kernel version offhand) from reading it on > several Yahoo Groups that I'm in that are part of projects that use > that chipset. > > Matthew Pitts > N8OHU > K2 #5956 _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: > http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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