WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! (was ESD recommendation)

[Gary Hvizdak]

At 07:21:12 EST 2007 on Fri Nov 23, David Ferrington, M0XDF wrote ...

You need
:
:
* a ESD wire  - to connect the rig chassis to your bonding point
   (some may say this isn't absolutely necessary)

--

All,

    YOU ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY SHOULD NOT GROUND THE CHASSIS while assembling

your K3 or anything else that has ESD sensitive components!  Doing so would
defeat the entire purpose of the ESD mat, which is to gently, safely, and
gradually dissipate a charge so that it doesn't cause damage.  If you
directly ground the chassis and you or someone else were to "accidentally"
touch the rig in a vulnerable spot (while not wearing a wrist strap), then
the resulting surge discharging that person's charge to ground through the
rig's vulnerable circuitry would most certainly fry something!

    While your rig is only contacting your ESD mat via an insulator such as
its rubber feet or a painted surface, it will build up a charge of its own.

This is perfectly okay provided the eventual discharge paths for such a
charge are either (gradually) via the mat to ground, or (gradually) through
you via your wrist strap to ground.

    BTW, ESD mats should routinely be cleaned with an appropriate product,
because otherwise the buildup of contaminants (such as oils from your skin
and rosin splashes) will defeat the mat's dissipative/conductive properties.

DO NOT USE A "HOME REMEDY" (SUCH AS RUBBING ALCOHOL) TO CLEAN YOUR MAT AS
THAT WILL ALSO AFFECT YOUR MAT'S PERFORMANCE!

    FYI, I work in an Aerospace manufacturing facility where I routinely
handle individual circuit cards that cost between $10,000 and $15,000.  The
above comments are derived from the mandatory training I receive at this
facility.

    A quick Google of "ESD" yielded 12,800,000 hits, while a search for the
entire phrase "esd mat cleaner" yielded 230 hits, so there's clearly a
wealth of info on this subject available online.

73,
Gary  KI4GGX
Melbourne, Florida
K2 #4067 / K3 #000???

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[Gary Hvizdak]

Dave just wrote ...

... as long as this wire that earths the chassis is an ESD lead (1M ohm
resistor etc) - what is the problem with that?

--

Hi Dave,

    I didn't realize what you meant by "ESD lead" and assumed you were tying

the chassis directly to ground, rather than via a 1 Meg resistor.  In that
case your ESD wire sounds like a very good idea, something I'll probably do
when building my K3 to avoid charges building up while it's resting on non-
conductive feet or painted surfaces.  (Very clever, why didn't I think of
that.)

    Hopefully no one will make the mistake of directly grounding their K3's
chassis during assembly.

73,
Gary  KI4GGX

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[M0XDF]

No problem Gary and I'm glad we agree on that :-)

Sorry if I didn't make that clear. To try to clarify this.. the basic
premise is that anything you attach to you or your kit, while you are
building, is bonded to the same point (that's important) and via a 1M ohm
resistor lead.

I also use dissipative tools, like screwdrivers, cutters etc etc, but that
is not really necessary, as long as your body is grounded via a strap.

I repeat, this ground MUST be via a 1M ohm resistor (or higher, but better
to keep all resistances the same).


On 23/11/07 19:58, "Gary Hvizdak" <[hidden email]> sent:

> Dave just wrote ...
>
> ... as long as this wire that earths the chassis is an ESD lead (1M ohm
> resistor etc) - what is the problem with that?
>
> --
>
> Hi Dave,
>
>     I didn't realize what you meant by "ESD lead" and assumed you were tying
>
> the chassis directly to ground, rather than via a 1 Meg resistor.  In that
> case your ESD wire sounds like a very good idea, something I'll probably do
> when building my K3 to avoid charges building up while it's resting on non-
> conductive feet or painted surfaces.  (Very clever, why didn't I think of
> that.)
>
>     Hopefully no one will make the mistake of directly grounding their K3's
> chassis during assembly.
>
> 73,
> Gary  KI4GGX

--
Those who walk bravely through life, unafraid of loss or failure,
find that they very rarely lose or fail.





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[Darrell Bellerive-2]

What about touching the circuit board pads with my Weller soldering station
that has a grounded tip?


On Friday 23 November 2007 10:52, Gary Hvizdak wrote:

>     YOU ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY SHOULD NOT GROUND THE CHASSIS while
> assembling
>
> your K3 or anything else that has ESD sensitive components!  Doing so would
> defeat the entire purpose of the ESD mat, which is to gently, safely, and
> gradually dissipate a charge so that it doesn't cause damage.  If you
> directly ground the chassis and you or someone else were to "accidentally"
> touch the rig in a vulnerable spot (while not wearing a wrist strap), then
> the resulting surge discharging that person's charge to ground through the
> rig's vulnerable circuitry would most certainly fry something!

--
Darrell Bellerive
Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA
Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[Paul Fletcher]

Check the resistance to earth - it may have a resistor in series already.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Darrell Bellerive
Sent: 24 November 2007 17:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! (was [Elecraft] ESD recommendation)

What about touching the circuit board pads with my Weller soldering station
that has a grounded tip?


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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[Nick Waterman]

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> To be sure I'm not being fuzzy-headed, I checked the Hakko on my bench and
> its tip is certainly connected directly to the mains ground (< 1 ohm).

Well, fair point, if you somehow manage to come into contact with 110v
AC AND make good contact with the tip of your soldering iron, you know
you're really having a bad day   :-)

--
"Nosey" Nick Waterman, VE3/G7RZQ, K2 #5209.
use Std::Disclaimer;    [hidden email]
What do computer engineers use for birth control? Their personalities.
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[Darrell Bellerive-2]

2.6 ohms tip to ground prong on AC plug. It is a Weller WTCPL. An oldie, but a
goodie.

On Saturday 24 November 2007 10:30, Paul Fletcher wrote:

> Check the resistance to earth - it may have a resistor in series already.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Darrell Bellerive
> Sent: 24 November 2007 17:12
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: WARNING! WARNING! WARNING! (was [Elecraft] ESD recommendation)
>
> What about touching the circuit board pads with my Weller soldering station
> that has a grounded tip?
>

--
Darrell Bellerive
Amateur Radio Stations VA7TO and VE7CLA
Grand Forks, British Columbia, Canada
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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> That's why a connection to earth ground is recommended and important. It's
> often pointed out that it doesn't matter if everything is grounded as long
> as it's at the same potential. That's true, but connections to the earth are
> usually all around us, often in unexpected places.

Modern electrical installations, at least in the UK, and I think also in
the US, often use a system called Protective Multiple Earthing.  With
this all exposed metal work in a building should be connected together
and to the mains ground wire, but will not be connected to the actual
earth at the property boundary (it will be connected to mains neutral).
  If you have this sort of installation, you must not connect anything
to true earth unless you are prepared to assume that you are connecting
it to mains live, as, in some fault conditions, the difference between
the true earth and mains earth voltage can be the full supply voltage.

(Such installations also require special consideration with respect to
antennas and functional (RF) earths.)


--
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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[Don Wilhelm-4]

David,

Having to study the National Electrical Code prior to building and
wiring my house,  I can talk a bit about the safety grounding for
residential AC power in the US -  All exposed metallic components of the
electrical wiring system must be connected to the electrical safety
ground.  There is an earth ground connection at the service entry point
- which is to be the only direct ground point in the system (yes, that
is also connected to the electrical neutral at that point - and at that
point only).

When an additional earth ground is used (as many hams do when driving a
ground rod for the shack, antennas, etc), that ground rod must also be
connected (using heavy wire) to the entrance utility ground rod - in
fact that connection is required to comply with the National Electrical
Code.

Under fault conditions, the use of an earth ground that is *not*
connected back to the service entry ground can produce dangerous
voltages between the extra ground and parts of the electrical system.

73,
Don W3FPR

David Woolley wrote:

> Modern electrical installations, at least in the UK, and I think also
> in the US, often use a system called Protective Multiple Earthing.  
> With this all exposed metal work in a building should be connected
> together and to the mains ground wire, but will not be connected to
> the actual earth at the property boundary (it will be connected to
> mains neutral).  If you have this sort of installation, you must not
> connect anything to true earth unless you are prepared to assume that
> you are connecting it to mains live, as, in some fault conditions, the
> difference between the true earth and mains earth voltage can be the
> full supply voltage.
>
> (Such installations also require special consideration with respect to
> antennas and functional (RF) earths.)
>
>

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[AC7AC]

CONTENTS DELETED

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[Ken Kopp]

My older home .... built in 1962 by an individual for
himself ... has only 2-wire Romex.  At least it's not
single conductor "knob-and-tube wiring.  Nothing in
the house ...water pump, water heater, forced-air
heat blower, etc. is "three-wire". (;-(

It's a 2-story structure and it's virtually impossible to
rewire to meet present-day electrical codes without
tearing off the interior wallboard and starting over.

The only way I can see to fix the problem would be
to drill completely through the wall to the outside
at every outlet and add the "green wire" on the outside
of the building and return the resulting "buss" to the
entrance panel's ground.  A decidedly "ugly" solution,
even if painted to match the exterior color and doesn't
solve the issue of outlets on interior walls.  I -have-
replaced all outlets with "3-wire" types to avoid the
usual cut-off-the ground-pin from household appliance
plugs, but there's nothing connected to the round
holes. (;-)

Cutting groves in the wall board from each outlet down
to the floor and hiding the ground buss under the kick-
board is possible but again, "ugly".  The walls have
been painted of course and the kick-boards are stuck
to the wall by paint.  Removing the kick-boards would
damage the wallboard and still require its replacement.

There seems to be no realistic solution ...

I built my shack, garage and shop onto the house and
they -DO- meet all codes.  There is a dediacated breaker
panel feeding this addition and there are 17 ground rods
on 2 acres, all bonded together with #10 CU buss wire
and tied to the RF and AC entrance ground.  Two-inch
CU strap runs inder the wall into the shack and along
the back of the desk with 1/4" brass bolts with wing-nuts
for each piece of equipment.

I'm retired from an electric utility.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
[hidden email]
or
[hidden email]

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[zeke7237]

Hi Ken ..

You say "2-wire Romex" .. do you really mean metal-jacketed BX cable?
I just bought a '68 house and that's what's in here, and if that's
what you have you can return ground on the jacket of the cable.

de w1rt/john

On Nov 25, 2007 3:20 PM, Ken Kopp <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My older home .... built in 1962 by an individual for
> himself ... has only 2-wire Romex.  At least it's not
> single conductor "knob-and-tube wiring.  Nothing in
> the house ...water pump, water heater, forced-air
> heat blower, etc. is "three-wire". (;-(
>
> It's a 2-story structure and it's virtually impossible to
> rewire to meet present-day electrical codes without
> tearing off the interior wallboard and starting over.
>
> The only way I can see to fix the problem would be
> to drill completely through the wall to the outside
> at every outlet and add the "green wire" on the outside
> of the building and return the resulting "buss" to the
> entrance panel's ground.  A decidedly "ugly" solution,
> even if painted to match the exterior color and doesn't
> solve the issue of outlets on interior walls.  I -have-
> replaced all outlets with "3-wire" types to avoid the
> usual cut-off-the ground-pin from household appliance
> plugs, but there's nothing connected to the round
> holes. (;-)
>
> Cutting groves in the wall board from each outlet down
> to the floor and hiding the ground buss under the kick-
> board is possible but again, "ugly".  The walls have
> been painted of course and the kick-boards are stuck
> to the wall by paint.  Removing the kick-boards would
> damage the wallboard and still require its replacement.
>
> There seems to be no realistic solution ...
>
> I built my shack, garage and shop onto the house and
> they -DO- meet all codes.  There is a dediacated breaker
> panel feeding this addition and there are 17 ground rods
> on 2 acres, all bonded together with #10 CU buss wire
> and tied to the RF and AC entrance ground.  Two-inch
> CU strap runs inder the wall into the shack and along
> the back of the desk with 1/4" brass bolts with wing-nuts
> for each piece of equipment.
>
> I'm retired from an electric utility.
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
> [hidden email]
> or
> [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>

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[Mike B-12]

You might look into a product designed to run conduit on top of walls.  I've
seen it on concrete block & plaster walls commonly, but I think it would work in
your case, too.  One brand is Wiremold (I think), and Home Depot & Lowes carry
it.  I'm sure lots of other suppliers do too.

There are a variety of fittings & boxes, all designed to allow electrical
outlets & wire runs to be safely run on the interior "face" of a wall.

I haven't had the need to price it, but it may not be inexpensive.  If it's an
idea that works for you, you might do one room at a time.

Just an idea; didn't know if you had looked into this already or not.

73,

Mike
KW1ND
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[Stephen Prior]

I didn't build my K2 (I wish had!), so I have limited experience of its
alignment.

Having finally got around to getting back on psk31, I have noticed a banding
effect in the waterfall - both with mixw on the pc and cocoamodem on the
mac.  Removing the audio feed from the K2 shows the usual digital artifacts
often observed with integrated soundcards in particular, but no evidence of
any ripple.  I'm using the inbuilt sound on a new Intel mac mini running
both Leopard and XP.  I don't believe the computer is to blame. Anyway, as
noted below, the OP1 filter shows none of this.

Running spectrogram with random noise at the antenna (not much else on 12m,
four hours after dark!), I can see a distinct ripple in the passband of all
filter widths, in every mode.  Except, that the OP1 filter in the ssb board
gives a flat response in all modes. So it's something to do I guess with the
setup of the variable crystal filter. I am wondering how far back I will
need to go in the setting up of the K2 to find the adjustment which will
perhaps flatten the shape.

Using spectrogram (latest) with the xtal filter in usb at 2.1kHz, there is
about 10dB between peak and trough of the ripple.  The peaks are roughly
600Hz apart.  I'd never noticed this in casual listening, I doubt that I
could have done.  Most of the time I am on cw and the 700Hz filter setting
shows no obvious ripple anyway.  It does however certainly not look right on
the waterfall on psk31!

I'd be grateful for any advice!

Thanks,

Stephen G4SJP



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[David Woolley (E.L)]

Don Wilhelm wrote:
> residential AC power in the US -  All exposed metallic components of the
> electrical wiring system must be connected to the electrical safety
> ground.  There is an earth ground connection at the service entry point
> - which is to be the only direct ground point in the system (yes, that
> is also connected to the electrical neutral at that point - and at that
> point only).

If the earth is connected to neutral at the building entry, that sounds
like the UK PME system, but with the variation that every house has a
real earth electrode, not just the hams'.  The problem with it is that a
neutral break can cause the return current to flow through the,
relatively high resistance ground.

With the UK implementation, there are multiple earth electrodes, but not
one per property.

The UK electrical codes require all exposed metalwork (piping, etc.),
that isn't effectively insulated, to be bonded to the supply ground, not
just the metalwork of the electrical system.  I think this is now
required for all installations, but PME systems have more stringent
requirements.  Although its not in my summary of the UK codes, the RSGB
point out that external antennas can rise to significant voltages if the
neutral supply is broken, and should be protected as though they were
connected to the live supply.

> When an additional earth ground is used (as many hams do when driving a
> ground rod for the shack, antennas, etc), that ground rod must also be
> connected (using heavy wire) to the entrance utility ground rod - in
> fact that connection is required to comply with the National Electrical
> Code.

Same in the UK.

The UK also uses a system in which the earth is run back to the
substation and physically grounded there.  That's the older system, and
possibly most common.

There is more about the implications of UK PME systems for amateur radio
at
<www.rsgb.org/emc/pdfs/leaflets/emc7protectivemultipleearthingmembers.pdf>

In IEE terms, the PME system is TN-C-S.  The older system is TN-S.
There is a rare configuation (TT), used for rural overhead supplies,
where each house has its own earth electrode, but these are not
connected to the neutral, which is only earthed at the sub-station.  For
TT systems, RCDs are mandatory.

--
David Woolley
Emails are not formal business letters, whatever businesses may want.
RFC1855 says there should be an address here, but, in a world of spam,
that is no longer good advice, as archive address hiding may not work.
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[Dan Romanchik KB6NU]

I did some Google searching and came up with the following:

http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?
ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001341

I think it's going to be a pain no matter what you do, but running  
the ground wire exterior to the building doesn't seem like a great  
idea to me.

73!

Dan KB6NU
----------------------------------------------------------
CW Geek and MI Affiliated Club Coordinator
Read my ham radio blog at http://www.kb6nu.com
LET'S GET MORE KIDS INTO HAM RADIO!



On Nov 25, 2007, at Nov 25, 3:20 PM, Ken Kopp wrote:

> My older home .... built in 1962 by an individual for himself ...  
> has only 2-wire Romex.  At least it's not
> single conductor "knob-and-tube wiring.  Nothing in the  
> house ...water pump, water heater, forced-air heat blower, etc. is  
> "three-wire". (;-(
>
> It's a 2-story structure and it's virtually impossible to rewire to  
> meet present-day electrical codes without tearing off the interior  
> wallboard and starting over.
>
> The only way I can see to fix the problem would be
> to drill completely through the wall to the outside at every outlet  
> and add the "green wire" on the outside of the building and return  
> the resulting "buss" to the entrance panel's ground.  A decidedly  
> "ugly" solution,
> even if painted to match the exterior color and doesn't
> solve the issue of outlets on interior walls.  I -have-
> replaced all outlets with "3-wire" types to avoid the usual cut-off-
> the ground-pin from household appliance
> plugs, but there's nothing connected to the round holes. (;-)
>
> Cutting groves in the wall board from each outlet down to the floor  
> and hiding the ground buss under the kick-
> board is possible but again, "ugly".  The walls have been painted  
> of course and the kick-boards are stuck to the wall by paint.  
> Removing the kick-boards would damage the wallboard and still  
> require its replacement.
>
> There seems to be no realistic solution ...
>
> I built my shack, garage and shop onto the house and they -DO- meet  
> all codes.  There is a dediacated breaker panel feeding this  
> addition and there are 17 ground rods on 2 acres, all bonded  
> together with #10 CU buss wire and tied to the RF and AC entrance  
> ground.  Two-inch
> CU strap runs inder the wall into the shack and along
> the back of the desk with 1/4" brass bolts with wing-nuts
> for each piece of equipment.
>
> I'm retired from an electric utility.
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
> [hidden email]
> or
> [hidden email]

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[AC7AC]

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[Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone]]

This is from the web site quoted-  This is how how a house I used to own
was wired for the few (at the time) obligatory three-prong sockets.
I was told by the house inspector that this did meet code.

Drilling into the stud space from above or below (crawl space or
attic) does work.  I've rewired 3/4 of my current 100+ year old house
that way in the past ten years.  I had gas piping for lighting, knob
and tube, lead-covered two conductor, BX, conduit, and both two and
three wire Nomex (as well as a couple of runs of lamp cord) when I
started.  I've now got two runs of BX, a fair amount of conduit and
the rest is three (or 4) wire Nomex.  And it's all up to code for the
time it was done.

>What my plan is, is to run the conductor through the crawl space and
>drill into the stud space from below running the ground wire as one
>would run a new piece of romex. I beleive that this would be more cost
>effective than replacing the entire wiring system in the house and
>still meet the requirements of code. It would definitely be safer than
>leaving the house as it is. The house was wired in 1958 and must have
>been done by some one that wanted plenty of power as there are many
>more outlets on the walls than current code requires including the
>kitchen counter. I have not yet delved into the distribution of the
>circuits but the house has the original fused 200 amp distribution
>panel.

73, doug

   From: Dan KB6NU <[hidden email]>
   Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 19:17:32 -0500

   I did some Google searching and came up with the following:

   http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?
   ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001341

   I think it's going to be a pain no matter what you do, but running  
   the ground wire exterior to the building doesn't seem like a great  
   idea to me.

   73!

   Dan KB6NU
   ----------------------------------------------------------
   CW Geek and MI Affiliated Club Coordinator
   Read my ham radio blog at http://www.kb6nu.com
   LET'S GET MORE KIDS INTO HAM RADIO!



   On Nov 25, 2007, at Nov 25, 3:20 PM, Ken Kopp wrote:
   > My older home .... built in 1962 by an individual for himself ...  
   > has only 2-wire Romex.  At least it's not
   > single conductor "knob-and-tube wiring.  Nothing in the  
   > house ...water pump, water heater, forced-air heat blower, etc. is  
   > "three-wire". (;-(
   >
   > It's a 2-story structure and it's virtually impossible to rewire to  
   > meet present-day electrical codes without tearing off the interior  
   > wallboard and starting over.
   >
   > The only way I can see to fix the problem would be
   > to drill completely through the wall to the outside at every outlet  
   > and add the "green wire" on the outside of the building and return  
   > the resulting "buss" to the entrance panel's ground.  A decidedly  
   > "ugly" solution,
   > even if painted to match the exterior color and doesn't
   > solve the issue of outlets on interior walls.  I -have-
   > replaced all outlets with "3-wire" types to avoid the usual cut-off-
   > the ground-pin from household appliance
   > plugs, but there's nothing connected to the round holes. (;-)
   >
   > Cutting groves in the wall board from each outlet down to the floor  
   > and hiding the ground buss under the kick-
   > board is possible but again, "ugly".  The walls have been painted  
   > of course and the kick-boards are stuck to the wall by paint.  
   > Removing the kick-boards would damage the wallboard and still  
   > require its replacement.
   >
   > There seems to be no realistic solution ...
   >
   > I built my shack, garage and shop onto the house and they -DO- meet  
   > all codes.  There is a dediacated breaker panel feeding this  
   > addition and there are 17 ground rods on 2 acres, all bonded  
   > together with #10 CU buss wire and tied to the RF and AC entrance  
   > ground.  Two-inch
   > CU strap runs inder the wall into the shack and along
   > the back of the desk with 1/4" brass bolts with wing-nuts
   > for each piece of equipment.
   >
   > I'm retired from an electric utility.
   >
   > 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
   > [hidden email]
   > or
   > [hidden email]

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