Wait times...

[Dave G.]

It's just like writing a piece of software.

"Quick delivery, Functions per specification, Quality Product.."

Pick any two from three....

--
Dave G.   KK7SS
'65 MK III Sprite in Richland, WA
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
But I'm not so sure about the universe."  ... Albert Einstein.

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[WILLIS COOKE]

--- "Dave G." <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's just like writing a piece of software.
>
> "Quick delivery, Functions per specification,
> Quality Product.."
>
> Pick any two from three....
>
I have heard it as On Time, On Spec, On Budget, pick
any two!.  This applies for any engineering project,
not just software, however, it assumes that the
schedule, budget and specification are reasonable.  If
you give marketing or upper management total control
you may be able to have only one or maybe none of the
three.

In the case of Elecraft engineering, upper management
and marketing are all the same people, so I am
counting on getting two.  I pick On Spec and On
Budget.  


Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ
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[Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO]

No engineering project is EVER on budget. Forget about that one. And no
engineering project is EVER allowed a reasonable development schedule by
Marketing and Executive Management. Forget about that one too. The best you
can hope for is that EVENTUALLY it actually works as intended and specified --  
hopefully before the customers get tired of you and your
not-quite-ready-for-prime-time product and go to the competition (if there is
any).

Please note, I am not talking about Elecraft here -- rather all the companies
I've ever worked for. I have never worked for Elecraft.

If I sound pessimistic and cynical, I'm really not. Those are just the
realities I've encountered in 35 years in high technology companies, both
small and large, as a hardware engineer and as a technical writer working
intimately with hardware and software engineering groups. If any of you have
actually had more positive REAL-WORLD experiences in this realm, I'd like to
know where! Seriously.  :-)

I've heard and read of military contractors in the World War II era like
Douglas Aircraft and others bringing in a new warplane on spec, ahead of
schedule, and under budget. They say it's true, and I believe it, I guess. But
whatever they were doing right in those days just doesn't happen any more.

Bill W5WVO


WILLIS COOKE wrote:

> I have heard it as On Time, On Spec, On Budget, pick
> any two!.  This applies for any engineering project,
> not just software, however, it assumes that the
> schedule, budget and specification are reasonable.  If
> you give marketing or upper management total control
> you may be able to have only one or maybe none of the
> three.
>
> In the case of Elecraft engineering, upper management
> and marketing are all the same people, so I am
> counting on getting two.  I pick On Spec and On
> Budget.
>
>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
> _______________________________________________
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> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com 

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[Dave G.]

Bill,

When I was a contract person supporting the Space Program, I had the
very good fortune to work alongside a gentleman who would proclaim (in
his own words) "Meet Von Braun?? Hell !!, I helped carry his bags to the
barracks.."

His main beef went something like this...
<< In the old days, we built it, we flew it, and then we documented it.
Nowadays, we plan, schedule, discuss, re-plan, design, re-design, etc.,
etc..and now we can't get a damn thing into the air!!>>

While I was there, he resigned to play trombone in a local jazz band...
Smart Man!!

On 5 Apr 2008 at 14:23, Bill W5WVO wrote:
>> They say it's true, and I believe it, I guess. But
>> whatever they were doing right in those days just doesn't happen any
>> more.

--
Dave G.   KK7SS
'65 MK III Sprite in Richland, WA
"Two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity.
But I'm not so sure about the universe."  ... Albert Einstein.

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[N5GE]

On Sat, 5 Apr 2008 14:23:11 -0600, you wrote:

>No engineering project is EVER on budget. Forget about that one. And no
>engineering project is EVER allowed a reasonable development schedule by
>Marketing and Executive Management. Forget about that one too. The best you
>can hope for is that EVENTUALLY it actually works as intended and specified --  
>hopefully before the customers get tired of you and your
>not-quite-ready-for-prime-time product and go to the competition (if there is
>any).
>
>Please note, I am not talking about Elecraft here -- rather all the companies
>I've ever worked for. I have never worked for Elecraft.
>
>If I sound pessimistic and cynical, I'm really not. Those are just the
>realities I've encountered in 35 years in high technology companies, both
>small and large, as a hardware engineer and as a technical writer working
>intimately with hardware and software engineering groups. If any of you have
>actually had more positive REAL-WORLD experiences in this realm, I'd like to
>know where! Seriously.  :-)
>
>I've heard and read of military contractors in the World War II era like
>Douglas Aircraft and others bringing in a new warplane on spec, ahead of
>schedule, and under budget. They say it's true, and I believe it, I guess. But
>whatever they were doing right in those days just doesn't happen any more.
>
>Bill W5WVO

[snip]

Bill, you're thinking from the wrong end.  Think of what's added now that they
didn't have then.  They didn't have the MBA degree and the CEO made 5 times as
much as the man on the floor, not 5 million times as much.

Beginning in 1942 at the "Bomber Plant" in Fort Worth, Texas Consolidated
Aircraft built more than 4,000 B-24 Bombers during WW II.  All without MBAs and
today's insanely high paid CEOs.  This unbelievable productivity was replicated
throughout the USA from coast to coast.

I've worked in several aircraft factories as a worker and manager since 1963 and
all of that changed in the early 80's.  The "Bomber Plant" in Fort Worth can't
even deliver aircraft that they have been building since 1976 at a scheduled
rate of a few per month.  In 1980 they were delivering about 20 to 25 per month.
Then the men and women form the WW II era began to retire and die.  The ones in
management were replaced by MBA's and the president of the division began giving
the employees questionnaires to fill out rather than visiting the factory floor
once a week for a look around and visit with the workers.  I doubt that any
employee in the plant has ever made eye contact with the top guy, much less
shaken his hand.

I believe that The folks at Elecraft are all on the same team with the same
focus.  I also have a suspicion that Eric and Wayne share the fruits of the
teams labor fairly and evenly handedly.  That's the way being successful is
done.  

OK.  I'm off the soap box now...

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"They that can give up essential liberty
to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."

--Benjamin Franklin 1775


Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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[N2EY]

In a message dated 4/5/08 3:24:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
[hidden email] writes:


> No engineering project is EVER on budget.

Yes, they are; I've worked on many that were.

 Forget about that one. And no
>
> engineering project is EVER allowed a reasonable development schedule by
> Marketing and Executive Management. Forget about that one too.

I've worked on engineering projects that had reasonable schedules.

What you don't often find is both characteristics (adequate schedule and
reasonable budget) together.
>
> I've heard and read of military contractors in the World War II era like
> Douglas Aircraft and others bringing in a new warplane on spec, ahead of
> schedule, and under budget. They say it's true, and I believe it, I guess.
> But
> whatever they were doing right in those days just doesn't happen any more.

Whole bunch of things were different then.

For one thing, there was a war on, and the nation's resources were completely
dedicated to fighting it. The Army and Navy weren't going to haggle much over
development price of a new aircraft that could give them an advantage in
combat.

There were also lots of projects that went nowhere. For example, the P-47 and
P-51 are well known WW2 fighters. Anyone with an interest in WW2 aircraft
knows them. But there were also the XP-48, XP-49, and XP-50 between them, which
never went into production. Look down the list and the projects that never went
into production far exceed those that did.

There were also lots of versions, variants and modifications. The first
couple of versions of a plane were often quickly superseded. While the P-51
prototype flew less than 6 months from the day the order was placed, the plane went
all the way to the H model before the war ended. How much was spent developing
all those versions? Imagine if there were  K3 models all the way to H......

Finally, there was IMHO a much greater tolerance for odd and even dangerous
characteristicsm as long as the basic specs were met. The P-51 was fast and
powerful, but a pilot had to trim the heck out of it before takeoff to counter
the enormous propeller torque. Forget to do so and the plane would crash. That
sort of thing was accepted as the price of high performance.

Think about how many features there are in any Elecraft rig and how few real
problems.

73 de Jim, N2EY
 




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