Wayne...Eric...K2 with USB anytime soon??

[Fred (FL)]

Way back when, 78, I wrote the "RS-232 QTTY
Interface" software for the then Exxon "QYX
Intelligent Typewriter".  I remember when I started
that project, looking up the RS-232 Standard - at that
time I recall it was an old Bell standard interface -
both hardware and software functionality.
And at that time in 1978, the standard had been
long used and in many dusty archives then.  Of course
the QYX product promised to conform 100% with the then
RS-232 standard.

A couple months later, when we got the QYX
typewriter's QTTY package working - Exxon was all
happy that their product could send receive files
and messages, coast to coast.  Then IBM's "PC"
came on the market in 81 - and the Intelligent
Typewriter slowly fell out of favor.  I recall,
President Carter's daughter was reportedly one
of our first customers, or so rumors told us.

I too, here here, 2nd the suggestion for a USB
interface for my K2 # 5422.  Perhaps throw out
the code for the RS-232, and make the space
available for USB code if space need be.

Fred N3CSY
73's


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[Francis Belliveau]

I think that those asking the question do not fully understand all the
facts.

Admittedly, all computing hardware that comes with USB and RS-232 hardware
comes with drivers for this hardware.  However, USB is treated as another
bus, like PCI, and drivers must be installed for each kind of hardware
installed there.  Since there is no way that a K2 will be of much use if it
emulater a hard drvie, keyboard or mouse, Elecraft would need to provide a
K2 driver for each operating system that they intend to support.  Remember
that Elecraft is in the Ham Radio business, not the computer hardware
business.

Furthermore, I have experience with these things in that I have fielded an
application that simultaneously interfaces with 6 serial ports and 3 USB
devices.  The serial devices are much more reliable and much easier to
troibleshoot.

So until there is a better generic communications standard, I say that the
serial port is still the best choice for a small non-computer company like
Elecraft.  Users only need to know which port they have attached their
equipment to, and if your machine doesn't have any then you can but one that
attaches to your USB port.

Fran, KA4FRH


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[Rick Commo]

Fran brought out some good points.  Thanks you Fran.  I'd like to take it a bit deeper.

 

Technically Elecraft could develop a set of USB based rig control semantics that allowed end user
programs (loggers or just simple rig controllers) to use the Windows native HID (Human Interface
Device) USB API (Application Programming Interface).  Other ham radio programs have done this.  But
it's really a bit of a hack and often falls short of what the programmer was trying to achieve.

 

On conjecture, let's assume that Elecraft wanted to do it the right way.  They would have to develop
a native "kernel mode" USB driver unique to the K2 that would be inserted into the "I/O stack" above
than the raw USB protocol driver.  Realistically this could be done for Windows.  It probably would
not be done for Linux or the Mac.  Well, now they've gone beyond just doing firmware that runs
inside the rig to supporting an OS driver(s).  And they would probably want to change the PIC chip
on the KIO card to be one with the USB serial engine built on board - more design and firmware
coding.  It could be done but it would be a major effort.  

 

If they are doing it right they will spend upwards of $2000 (every two years) to get a registered
"USB vendor ID" from the board that handles this.  Or they could just becomes USB-IF members at
$4000 annually.  Not a cheap thing in either case.

 

Finally people who write the application programs that we use to control the K2 would now have to
include the Elecraft driver so that their program could work.  Chances are these "application"
programmers (some are really good at it, some only so-so) might not know how to debug problems at
the USB and/or kernel level.  Ugh, what a mess.  RS232 is a lot simpler.

 

Let's consider developing a rig control program.  With RS-232 you can take two computers and connect
their com ports together.  Then you could use a terminal program to see what your program is sending
down to the rig.  You might even quickly throw together an "emulator" for a rig that sends a
response back to the program.  In fact if your computer has two com ports you don't even need the
second computer.  

 

However all is not black for the USB only laptop crowd!  There are a number of USB->RS232 adapters
available.  They are inexpensive and the few that I've been lent to try out have worked just fine
for rig control.  They are not that expensive.  I just did a quick check at http://www.outpost.com
and found the cheapest at $15 ranging up to $40.

 

Using a USB->RS232 adapter lets a USB only equipped laptop work with an RS232 protocol that probably
has been well debugged.  And rig control just doesn't need raw USB speeds.  Anything above 4800 baud
is probably more than enough for most purposes.

 

Sorry to be long winded but I wanted to convey some idea of the ripples that would ensue from trying
to oblige a "simple" request like native USB control.  I have looked into doing this for a couple of
project that I would like to do myself.  RS232, while long in the tooth, look pretty good in
comparison.

 

Cheers,

-rick, K7LOG

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Francis Belliveau
Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2006 1:27 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] RE: K2 with USB anytime soon??

 

I think that those asking the question do not fully understand all the

facts.

 

Admittedly, all computing hardware that comes with USB and RS-232 hardware

comes with drivers for this hardware.  However, USB is treated as another

bus, like PCI, and drivers must be installed for each kind of hardware

installed there.

.

<clip>

.

Fran, KA4FRH

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[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

Most small-volume projects I've seen just use the FTDI USB to serial
interface. Basically it moves the USB-to-serial interface into the
project.

Not real sure if it's hard to use, but check out the WinKey USB to see
an example. I also have a PIC programmer that uses the same chip. The
serial works on my Mac and my PC.

In other words, I don't think it's that big a deal.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
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[Bob Cunnings NW8L]

Right on. That's how USB connectivity was incorporated into our latest
product line. The FTDI part interfaces with a UART on the
microcontroller on one side, and a normal USB host port on the PC.
FTDI furnishes a USB driver and an application level DLL which our PC
hosted control software calls into to move data into and out of the
interface. We bit the bullet and signed on with the USB consortium to
get our own Vendor Id number. The hardest part is figuring out how to
manage the EEPROM holding the USB device descriptor and checksum, so
as to give the FTDI part it's new identity (documentation was
sketchy). Also the distribution of the driver, application DLL, and
.inf file had to be worked out, as was the management of USB serial
numbers in mfg. But really no big deal, the investment in the serial
protocol is preserved, and no USB driver needs to be written from
scratch.

Anyway, the FTDI part makes tunnelling an existing serial protocol
through the USB port easy and our customers are happy since they can
use USB natively on their new laptops without RS232 ports. They hate
converters since the use case is temporary setups in the field for
maintenance and diagnostics - they want a minimum of cables and
whatnot to lug around and fuss with.

Bob NW8L

On 6/18/06, Hisashi T Fujinaka <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Most small-volume projects I've seen just use the FTDI USB to serial
> interface. Basically it moves the USB-to-serial interface into the
> project.
>
> Not real sure if it's hard to use, but check out the WinKey USB to see
> an example. I also have a PIC programmer that uses the same chip. The
> serial works on my Mac and my PC.
>
> In other words, I don't think it's that big a deal.
>
> --
> Hisashi T Fujinaka - [hidden email]
> BSEE(6/86) + BSChem(3/95) + BAEnglish(8/95) + MSCS(8/03) + $2.50 = latte
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>

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[Simon (HB9DRV)]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Francis Belliveau" <[hidden email]>
>
> So until there is a better generic communications standard, I say that the
> serial port is still the best choice for a small non-computer company like
> Elecraft.  Users only need to know which port they have attached their
> equipment to, and if your machine doesn't have any then you can but one
> that
> attaches to your USB port.
>

100% spot-on. Elecraft's K2 has no need for USB, another argument in favour
of RS-232 is the maximum cable length.

Simon Brown
---
http://blog.hb9drv.ch/ 

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