Elecraft

Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

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Jim Wiley-2

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

So, Ron, what do you think of the Extra exam today? Is it "watered
down" from what you remember (not counting the fact that we no longer
have a code exam or a requirement to draw schematic diagrams)? I would
be interested in your honest assessment, mostly because I am curious,
and also because I am one of the members of the NCVEC Question Pool
Committee that wrote the questions for the current pool. We always
value comments (good or bad) from instructors, as it gives us an
opportunity to fine tune the pools to better reach our intended audience.

If something is too easy, we need to know that, and conversely, if
something is too difficult or obscure, we need to know that too.
Mostly, we care whether or not, in your opinion, a person who passes the
exam is prepared to assume the responsibilities of the license. Not an
expert, to be sure, but with a clear understanding of the rules and
privileges, as well as the technical challenges presented by the license.

However, be careful when evaluating the questions, because it is easy to
forget that persons such as yourself tend to have years of experience,
and the person taking the test probably doesn't have anything like that
to fall back on. In other words, an exam question or concept that is
"dead nuts easy" for you because you have been using that formula or
method every day may be brand new (and difficult to grasp) for a person
taking the exam. Consider each question as if you had never, or at
least only in the briefest sense, encountered that particular subject
before.

And yes, every time I teach a class, I learn a whole bunch more than the
students! Whoever said that the best way to really learn a subject was
to teach it hit the nail on the head! Oh, and by the way, I passed my
Extra in the early 70's too. I was originally licensed as a novice in
1959, then onward to Tech a year later, then General about 2 years after
that, then Advanced in the late 60's. Getting to be an OF.

Thanks.

- Jim, KL7CC

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> I passed the Extra back in the 1970's. Twenty years later my local Ham club
> was looking for license class instructors. I thought it'd be fun to do a
> whiz-bang demo of basic circuit theory for new Novices or Techs.
>
> But they wanted someone to teach Extra theory. Okay, that's what they needed
> and I was there to help.
>
> Had I known what I was getting into I might not have been so agreeable.
> (Isn't that true of most things?) I suspect I learned a lot more than my
> students. I've always subscribed to the theory that a good teacher has to
> know at least 10X what he/she intends to teach so I was soon digging through
> piles of texts on the various subjects touched upon in the study guide - and
> the Extra exams had changed greatly since I passed the test.
>
> It's said that we teach what we, ourselves, most need to learn. It was a
> real boon to me. Not just in getting 'up to date' but I got a real feeling
> of satisfaction to hear from each student as he/she passed the Extra test.
>
> So, if want to learn and the opportunity arises to help someone pass the
> test...
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

Jim,

If I can jump in here with some comments please.

The current Extra class (and all other classes as well) are more
oriented toward operating practices than to detailed technical
knowledge. Basic electrical laws and knowledge are not really required
to pass the test. So, questions about ohms law or how to calculate
power can be ignored if the applicant can excel at answering all the
questions about operating and FCC rules correctly.

I cannot judge whether this is all good or bad, but the engineer in me
says that the Extra class candidate should possess at least some
knowledge of basic electrical laws, formulas and circuits - that is what
sets the Extra class apart from the other license classes.

Quite another point is the multiple choice question format - it is an
easy matter for those with a good memory to simply memorize the question
pool with no understanding of the principles behind the questions. To
really administer a test with drawings and other facets that communicate
a knowledge of the subject requires examiners who will impartially
evaluate the tests with the many variants that can arise from different
applicants - it requires informed judgment, and that is not a task that
can be trusted to the current group of VEs since they are not trained
that way.

So I see the exam as sitting between a 'rock and a hard place'.
Decisions must be made for the sake of both the applicants and the
examiners.

The majority of new Extra Class hams are no longer the experimenting
kind, but they should be informed operators, and (much to my
disappointment) they are not the 'techies' of electronics that the Extra
class licensees used to be.

It is obvious from some of the questions posed by Extra Class hams that
they simply memorized the question pool rather than attempting to
understand the basic principles, and that part is saddening to me.
Unfortunately, I do not know of an easy cure other than reverting to the
qualified FCC examiners of old times.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jim Wiley wrote:

> So, Ron, what do you think of the Extra exam today? Is it "watered
> down" from what you remember (not counting the fact that we no longer
> have a code exam or a requirement to draw schematic diagrams)? I would
> be interested in your honest assessment, mostly because I am curious,
> and also because I am one of the members of the NCVEC Question Pool
> Committee that wrote the questions for the current pool. We always
> value comments (good or bad) from instructors, as it gives us an
> opportunity to fine tune the pools to better reach our intended audience.
>
>
> If something is too easy, we need to know that, and conversely, if
> something is too difficult or obscure, we need to know that too.
> Mostly, we care whether or not, in your opinion, a person who passes the
> exam is prepared to assume the responsibilities of the license. Not an
> expert, to be sure, but with a clear understanding of the rules and
> privileges, as well as the technical challenges presented by the license.
>
>
> However, be careful when evaluating the questions, because it is easy to
> forget that persons such as yourself tend to have years of experience,
> and the person taking the test probably doesn't have anything like that
> to fall back on. In other words, an exam question or concept that is
> "dead nuts easy" for you because you have been using that formula or
> method every day may be brand new (and difficult to grasp) for a person
> taking the exam. Consider each question as if you had never, or at
> least only in the briefest sense, encountered that particular subject
> before.
>
>
> And yes, every time I teach a class, I learn a whole bunch more than the
> students! Whoever said that the best way to really learn a subject was
> to teach it hit the nail on the head! Oh, and by the way, I passed my
> Extra in the early 70's too. I was originally licensed as a novice in
> 1959, then onward to Tech a year later, then General about 2 years after
> that, then Advanced in the late 60's. Getting to be an OF.
>
>
> Thanks.
>
>
> - Jim, KL7CC
>
>
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>
>> I passed the Extra back in the 1970's. Twenty years later my local Ham club
>> was looking for license class instructors. I thought it'd be fun to do a
>> whiz-bang demo of basic circuit theory for new Novices or Techs.
>>
>> But they wanted someone to teach Extra theory. Okay, that's what they needed
>> and I was there to help.
>>
>> Had I known what I was getting into I might not have been so agreeable.
>> (Isn't that true of most things?) I suspect I learned a lot more than my
>> students. I've always subscribed to the theory that a good teacher has to
>> know at least 10X what he/she intends to teach so I was soon digging through
>> piles of texts on the various subjects touched upon in the study guide - and
>> the Extra exams had changed greatly since I passed the test.
>>
>> It's said that we teach what we, ourselves, most need to learn. It was a
>> real boon to me. Not just in getting 'up to date' but I got a real feeling
>> of satisfaction to hear from each student as he/she passed the Extra test.
>>
>> So, if want to learn and the opportunity arises to help someone pass the
>> test...
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>>
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
>
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>
>

daleputnam

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

Hi Jim and Don,

You hit it on the head Don, and if I may, add a bit...

Because the Extra test isn't as techie as it was, it isn't held in as high esteem as it has. In some circles, the Extra license would hold much more, than the Commercial First would, in years gone by. I would find an Extra in the job app stack, and with a couple questions, be able to discern if it were a memo license, or the real deal... .. understand this was "then"... and even now the license on the resume will still retain enough interest to inspire a question or two from the interviewer, and the more time in the interview....

thanks,

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live™ Groups: Create an online spot for your favorite groups to meet.
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AC7AC

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

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The author has deleted this message.

AC7AC

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

In reply to this post by daleputnam

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The author has deleted this message.

WILLIS COOKE

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

It was only one year Ron. And that was before incentive licensing and the Extra Class did not allow any additional privileges over a General Class license

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
> To: "'Dale Putnam'" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 7:54 PM
> Time was one could not even apply for an Extra class license
> until they had
> several years of on-air experience.
>
> That's one requirement I'm sorry they dropped.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale
> Putnam
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:11 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
>
>
> Hi Jim and Don,
>
> You hit it on the head Don, and if I may, add a bit...
>
> Because the Extra test isn't as techie as it was, it
> isn't held in as high
> esteem as it has. In some circles, the Extra license would
> hold much more,
> than the Commercial First would, in years gone by. I would
> find an Extra in
> the job app stack, and with a couple questions, be able to
> discern if it
> were a memo license, or the real deal... .. understand
> this was "then"...
> and even now the license on the resume will still retain
> enough interest to
> inspire a question or two from the interviewer, and the
> more time in the
> interview....
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows LiveT Groups: Create an online spot for your
> favorite groups to
> meet.
> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

John Lemay

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

Guys

I wonder, could this qso return to the topic of Elecraft please ?

Many thanks

John G4ZTR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of WILLIS COOKE
Sent: 11 March 2009 03:00
To: 'Dale Putnam'; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; Ron D'Eau Claire
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

It was only one year Ron. And that was before incentive licensing and the
Extra Class did not allow any additional privileges over a General Class
license

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
> To: "'Dale Putnam'" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email],
[hidden email]

> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 7:54 PM
> Time was one could not even apply for an Extra class license
> until they had
> several years of on-air experience.
>
> That's one requirement I'm sorry they dropped.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dale
> Putnam
> Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:11 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
>
>
> Hi Jim and Don,
>
> You hit it on the head Don, and if I may, add a bit...
>
> Because the Extra test isn't as techie as it was, it
> isn't held in as high
> esteem as it has. In some circles, the Extra license would
> hold much more,
> than the Commercial First would, in years gone by. I would
> find an Extra in
> the job app stack, and with a couple questions, be able to
> discern if it
> were a memo license, or the real deal... .. understand
> this was "then"...
> and even now the license on the resume will still retain
> enough interest to
> inspire a question or two from the interviewer, and the
> more time in the
> interview....
>
> thanks,
>
>
>
> --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows LiveT Groups: Create an online spot for your
> favorite groups to
> meet.
> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3900 (20090302) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature
database 3900 (20090302) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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WILLIS COOKE

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

Some people who own ELECRAFT products sure are grouchy and forgot how to use their delete key.

Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
K5EWJ

--- On Wed, 3/11/09, John Lemay <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: John Lemay <[hidden email]>
> Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
> To: [hidden email], "'Dale Putnam'" <[hidden email]>, [hidden email], [hidden email], "'Ron D'Eau Claire'" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 1:07 AM
> Guys
>
> I wonder, could this qso return to the topic of Elecraft
> please ?
>
> Many thanks
>
> John G4ZTR
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> WILLIS COOKE
> Sent: 11 March 2009 03:00
> To: 'Dale Putnam'; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]; Ron D'Eau Claire
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
>
>
> It was only one year Ron. And that was before incentive
> licensing and the
> Extra Class did not allow any additional privileges over a
> General Class
> license
>
> Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
> K5EWJ
>
>
> --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Ron D'Eau Claire
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the
> Extra
> > To: "'Dale Putnam'"
> <[hidden email]>, [hidden email],
> [hidden email]
> > Cc: [hidden email]
> > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 7:54 PM
> > Time was one could not even apply for an Extra class
> license
> > until they had
> > several years of on-air experience.
> >
> > That's one requirement I'm sorry they dropped.
>
> >
> > Ron AC7AC
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Dale
> > Putnam
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:11 PM
> > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> > Cc: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the
> Extra
> >
> >
> > Hi Jim and Don,
> >
> > You hit it on the head Don, and if I may, add a
> bit...
> >
> > Because the Extra test isn't as techie as it was,
> it
> > isn't held in as high
> > esteem as it has. In some circles, the Extra license
> would
> > hold much more,
> > than the Commercial First would, in years gone by. I
> would
> > find an Extra in
> > the job app stack, and with a couple questions, be
> able to
> > discern if it
> > were a memo license, or the real deal... ..
> understand
> > this was "then"...
> > and even now the license on the resume will still
> retain
> > enough interest to
> > inspire a question or two from the interviewer, and
> the
> > more time in the
> > interview....
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> >
> >
> > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> _________________________________________________________________
> > Windows LiveT Groups: Create an online spot for your
> > favorite groups to
> > meet.
> >
> http://windowslive.com/online/groups?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_groups_032009
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list:
> > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list:
> > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version
> of virus signature
> database 3900 (20090302) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
>
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version
> of virus signature
> database 3900 (20090302) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com

Mike Harris-9

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

G'day,

I have great sympathy with G4ZTR and will make my comment to Eric.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO
K2/100 #1400
K3/100 #345

----- Original Message -----
From: "WILLIS COOKE" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Dale Putnam'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>;
<[hidden email]>; "'Ron D'Eau Claire'" <[hidden email]>; "John Lemay"
<[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

|
| Some people who own ELECRAFT products sure are grouchy and forgot how to
use their delete key.
|
| Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
| K5EWJ
|
|
| --- On Wed, 3/11/09, John Lemay <[hidden email]> wrote:
|
| > From: John Lemay <[hidden email]>
| > Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
| > To: [hidden email], "'Dale Putnam'" <[hidden email]>,
[hidden email], [hidden email], "'Ron D'Eau Claire'" <[hidden email]>
| > Cc: [hidden email]
| > Date: Wednesday, March 11, 2009, 1:07 AM
| > Guys
| >
| > I wonder, could this qso return to the topic of Elecraft
| > please ?
| >
| > Many thanks
| >
| > John G4ZTR
| >
| >
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: [hidden email]
| > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
| > WILLIS COOKE
| > Sent: 11 March 2009 03:00
| > To: 'Dale Putnam'; [hidden email];
| > [hidden email]; Ron D'Eau Claire
| > Cc: [hidden email]
| > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra
| >
| >
| > It was only one year Ron. And that was before incentive
| > licensing and the
| > Extra Class did not allow any additional privileges over a
| > General Class
| > license
| >
| > Willis 'Cookie' Cooke
| > K5EWJ
| >
| >
| > --- On Tue, 3/10/09, Ron D'Eau Claire
| > <[hidden email]> wrote:
| >
| > > From: Ron D'Eau Claire <[hidden email]>
| > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the
| > Extra
| > > To: "'Dale Putnam'"
| > <[hidden email]>, [hidden email],
| > [hidden email]
| > > Cc: [hidden email]
| > > Date: Tuesday, March 10, 2009, 7:54 PM
| > > Time was one could not even apply for an Extra class
| > license
| > > until they had
| > > several years of on-air experience.
| > >
| > > That's one requirement I'm sorry they dropped.
| >
| > >
| > > Ron AC7AC
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > > -----Original Message-----
| > > From: [hidden email]
| > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
| > Dale
| > > Putnam
| > > Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 7:11 PM
| > > To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
| > > Cc: [hidden email]
| > > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the
| > Extra
| > >
| > >
| > > Hi Jim and Don,
| > >
| > > You hit it on the head Don, and if I may, add a
| > bit...
| > >
| > > Because the Extra test isn't as techie as it was,
| > it
| > > isn't held in as high
| > > esteem as it has. In some circles, the Extra license
| > would
| > > hold much more,
| > > than the Commercial First would, in years gone by. I
| > would
| > > find an Extra in
| > > the job app stack, and with a couple questions, be
| > able to
| > > discern if it
| > > were a memo license, or the real deal... ..
| > understand
| > > this was "then"...
| > > and even now the license on the resume will still
| > retain
| > > enough interest to
| > > inspire a question or two from the interviewer, and
| > the
| > > more time in the
| > > interview....
| > >
| > > thanks,
| > >
| > >
| > >
| > > --... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Steve Ellington

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

In reply to this post by K2QI

44 replies to one OT post. Pretty good trolling!

Steve Ellington
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Sarte" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, March 08, 2009 1:59 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra

> Hello fellow Elecrafters,
>
>
>
> Sorry for the OT post here guys, but I just wanted to share with you that
> I
> passed my element 4 exam today with flying colors. Hope to have my
> license
> info updated on the ULS within a few days!
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> James KC2UEE (soon to be K3JPS)
>
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Tom-5

Re: Whaddayaknow... passed the Extra...OT

In reply to this post by Darwin, Keith

I've taught two general and two extra class classes. I love doing
it. I've also taught the tech class's, but the general and extra are
fun. Those taking the class get very committed to not failing their
classmates. Last Extra class I had 10 students, all ten took and passed,
including one ham who is blind.
One of the best nights I've ever had in ham radio.

And yes, when asked about rigs, Elecraft comes up first!

tom bosscher K8TB

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123