Why is K2 so easy to send cw with?

[Tim Logan]

Hello fellow Elecraft addicts -
I've been using my Icom 706 a lot lately while I build the amp for my
K2.  As an 18- 20wpm cw novice I seem to have FAR more difficulty
SENDING cw on the 706 then I do on the K2. I could swear it's not my
imagination. After 30min on the 706 - a switch over to sending on the K2
makes it feel like I just "jumped into a Formula I from an old truck."
Are there factors that make one radio far easier to send cw with than
another or is it just my imagination? If so - what are the factors that
affect how sending cw "feels"? Thanks folks.
73/Tim NZ7C (non engineer electrical nimno)
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[Ron D'Eau Claire-2]

Tim NZ7C wrote:
I've been using my Icom 706 a lot lately while I build the amp for my
K2.  As an 18- 20wpm cw novice I seem to have FAR more difficulty
SENDING cw on the 706 then I do on the K2. I could swear it's not my
imagination. After 30min on the 706 - a switch over to sending on the K2
makes it feel like I just "jumped into a Formula I from an old truck."
Are there factors that make one radio far easier to send cw with than
another or is it just my imagination?
--------------------------------

If you're sending good CW at 18 to 20 WPM you are definitely NOT a Novice by
any stretch of the imagination, Tim. That's the sort of speed 99.9% of the
Amateur and Commercial operators use (when Commercial CW was still active).

The only thing that comes to mine about one being easier than the other is
the "mode" of keyer operation you have, which will show up if you're using
iambic (squeeze) keying. Elecraft defaults to Curtis Mode B. If your Icom
uses mode B that might account for the 'problem'.

The difference between mode A and B lies in what the keyer does when both
paddles are released. The mode A keyer completes the element being sent when
the paddles are released. The mode B keyer sends an additional element
opposite to the one being sent when the paddles are released. The original
Curtis chip is mode A - the WB4VVF Accu-keyer is mode B. You can tell the
basic difference between the modes with the letter C. In mode A you could
squeeze both paddles (dah before dit) and you would let go of both after
hearing the last dit. With mode B, you start the same BUT let go of both
paddles after hearing the second *dah*.

I've read that the Curtis Mode A was actually a logic design error, but by
the time it was discovered, a lot of Hams had learned to use it that way and
so it got codified as a "real" mode. (If you can't fix it, feature it!).

Whatever the reason, most Hams have trouble switching between keyers using
the two modes, sometimes without even realizing why one bothers them.

Ron AC7AC



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[Frank R. Oppedijk]

Hi Tim,

Could it be that you K2 has been set to iambic "mode B" keying while your
Icom is set to "mode A" (or the other way around)? I am used to mode B
and find it nearly impossible to send correctly using mode A (dropping
trailing dits after a dah)... Many people have a preference for one mode
(either one) and find it very hard to use the other mode.

Cheers,

Frank
PA4N

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Logan <[hidden email]>
To: Elec-Reflector <[hidden email]>
Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2005 22:17:41 -0700
Subject: [Elecraft] Why is K2 so easy to send cw with?

> Hello fellow Elecraft addicts -
> I've been using my Icom 706 a lot lately while I build the amp for my
> K2.  As an 18- 20wpm cw novice I seem to have FAR more difficulty
> SENDING cw on the 706 then I do on the K2. I could swear it's not my
> imagination. After 30min on the 706 - a switch over to sending on the
> K2
> makes it feel like I just "jumped into a Formula I from an old truck."
> Are there factors that make one radio far easier to send cw with than
> another or is it just my imagination? If so - what are the factors that
> affect how sending cw "feels"? Thanks folks.
> 73/Tim NZ7C (non engineer electrical nimno)
> _______________________________________________
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[John Huffman-2]

> Are there factors that make one radio far easier to send
> cw with than
> another or is it just my imagination? If so - what are the
> factors that affect how sending cw "feels"? Thanks folks.

Tim -

If you are using the internal keyers in both rigs, there may
be far more difference than A and B modes.

The keyer in the K2 is very good for my taste, but each
person has a different preference.  Besides A and B modes,
the method of weighting, auto completion of elements and
autospacing are just a few variables that can change from
keyer to keyer.

I prefer the Curtis timing and A mode.  But, the best keyer
I have ever used is the Idiom Press CMOS 2.  It, and the
later incarnations, have about 9 different timing methods
that are user selectable.  Eventually you find one you like.

Some of the recent keyer kits I have tried have timing I
just can't get used to and changing weighting is a real
adventure on some of them.

Bottom line is that keyers differ widely.

73 de NA8M
John

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[Randy Rathbun]

I think it is mainly that the darn rig is a lot more fun than any  
appliance I ever used - including the Century 21, which I had a heck  
of a lot of fun with back in 1985, and I think is probably the best  
radio I ever owned up until I got the K2. To me the K2 is just a very  
simple rig to operate, just like the Century 21 was. Not a lot of  
knobs to fiddle with, so I end up just concentrating on enjoying the  
QSO.

It's simple, easy to fix, and I put it together - that makes a lot of  
difference too.

And please don't mention Formula 1 to me ever again! Some of us have  
a reallly bad taste in our mouths over that right now! :)

Randy Rathbun NV0U
K2 #1981
[hidden email]


On Jun 21, 2005, at 12:17 AM, Tim Logan wrote:

> Hello fellow Elecraft addicts -
> I've been using my Icom 706 a lot lately while I build the amp for  
> my K2.  As an 18- 20wpm cw novice I seem to have FAR more  
> difficulty SENDING cw on the 706 then I do on the K2. I could swear  
> it's not my imagination. After 30min on the 706 - a switch over to  
> sending on the K2 makes it feel like I just "jumped into a Formula  
> I from an old truck." Are there factors that make one radio far  
> easier to send cw with than another or is it just my imagination?  
> If so - what are the factors that affect how sending cw "feels"?  
> Thanks folks.
> 73/Tim NZ7C (non engineer electrical nimno)
> _______________________________________________
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[David F. Reed]

Tim,

I noticed similar feelings about my K2 vs. my FT-817; in trying to
rationalize my preference, I note that my K2 seems to be far less noisy
(diode switching vs. relays) and the full break in is nicely
adjustable.  The FT-817 is more like using VOX on SSB in that if you try
for a fast return to receive (short hold time), it switches back if you
pause too long, adding to the clatter; if too long a delay, you miss
stuff on the transfer in the exchange.  All that contributes to the
distraction for me, while the K2 just noiselessly switches; the delay
can be set to make it operate less like full break in if you prefer, and
it goes smooth.

So my guess (I admit I know nothing about a 706) is that maybe its the
clunking and clatter distraction that detracts from the 706 cw enjoyment
when compared with the virtues of the K2...

73 de W5SV, Dave

Tim Logan wrote:

> Hello fellow Elecraft addicts -
> I've been using my Icom 706 a lot lately while I build the amp for my
> K2.  As an 18- 20wpm cw novice I seem to have FAR more difficulty
> SENDING cw on the 706 then I do on the K2. I could swear it's not my
> imagination. After 30min on the 706 - a switch over to sending on the
> K2 makes it feel like I just "jumped into a Formula I from an old
> truck." Are there factors that make one radio far easier to send cw
> with than another or is it just my imagination? If so - what are the
> factors that affect how sending cw "feels"? Thanks folks.
> 73/Tim NZ7C (non engineer electrical nimno)

--
David F. Reed  - W5SV -     cell: 512 585-1057

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[EricJ-2]

I was in the automotive and motorcycle industry for 30 years and we used to
refer to a "happy motor". Two identical motors can "feel" different. Both
can be producing to specs, but one just seems to be laboring to do it while
another is more "willing"...happy. I can't describe it, but we've all felt
it.

You probably hit on the difference Tim is experiencing. I don't know
anything about the 706 either, but I've had my share of Japanese rigs and
the K1 and K2 on CW just feel...happy! Heh heh heh.

Eric
KE6US



-----Original Message-----


So my guess (I admit I know nothing about a 706) is that maybe its the
clunking and clatter distraction that detracts from the 706 cw enjoyment
when compared with the virtues of the K2...

73 de W5SV, Dave
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[Paul Gates]

Doggone it! I am going across the parking lot at the church here and get
some lunch and am definitely going to afterwards work some CW on my 706 and
then later try the same on the K1.
Paul Gates
K1  #231
KX1 #1186
XG1
[hidden email]


----- Original Message -----
From: "David F. Reed" <[hidden email]>
To: "Tim Logan" <[hidden email]>; "Elec-Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Why is K2 so easy to send cw with?

> Tim,
>
> I noticed similar feelings about my K2 vs. my FT-817; in trying to
> rationalize my preference, I note that my K2 seems to be far less noisy
> (diode switching vs. relays) and the full break in is nicely
> adjustable.  The FT-817 is more like using VOX on SSB in that if you try
> for a fast return to receive (short hold time), it switches back if you
> pause too long, adding to the clatter; if too long a delay, you miss
> stuff on the transfer in the exchange.  All that contributes to the
> distraction for me, while the K2 just noiselessly switches; the delay
> can be set to make it operate less like full break in if you prefer, and
> it goes smooth.
>
> So my guess (I admit I know nothing about a 706) is that maybe its the
> clunking and clatter distraction that detracts from the 706 cw enjoyment
> when compared with the virtues of the K2...
>
> 73 de W5SV, Dave
>
> Tim Logan wrote:
>
> > Hello fellow Elecraft addicts -
> > I've been using my Icom 706 a lot lately while I build the amp for my
> > K2.  As an 18- 20wpm cw novice I seem to have FAR more difficulty
> > SENDING cw on the 706 then I do on the K2. I could swear it's not my
> > imagination. After 30min on the 706 - a switch over to sending on the
> > K2 makes it feel like I just "jumped into a Formula I from an old
> > truck." Are there factors that make one radio far easier to send cw
> > with than another or is it just my imagination? If so - what are the
> > factors that affect how sending cw "feels"? Thanks folks.
> > 73/Tim NZ7C (non engineer electrical nimno)
>
>
> --
> David F. Reed  - W5SV -     cell: 512 585-1057
>
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[Kevin Rock]

I learned CW on my K2.  I do have an Icom 706 which I use for MARs nets.  
One time when my K2 was under the weather I used my 706 for running the
nets.  Wow!  What a difference.  The relay noise made sending less
enjoyable by far.  As far as keying modes?  I think I have mine set to A
but I would never know since I could send the same with a single lever
paddle as with my double lever paddles.  My technique (?) is self taught
since there were no elmers available to do training then.  I just slapped
the paddles around until it sounded like the tapes ;)  I have become
marginally better but still leave plenty of room for improvement.  For
what it is worth I find the K2 much easier to use for sending CW than the
Icom 706.  As far as hearing CW?  There is no question; the filters on the
K2 and the sensitivity of the front end make a great deal of difference.  
Makes me wonder what those $10k rigs are like on my primary mode.
    Kevin.  KD5ONS
    K2 #2511


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[Ian Stirling, G4ICV, AB2GR]

On Tuesday 21 June 2005 03:13, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> The difference between mode A and B lies in what the keyer does when both

  Thanks Ron for your clear description of the keyer logic.

I passed my 12 wpm test at the General Post Office headquarters
in London in 1979 'by the skin of my teeth'. There was just
one examiner who gave the session to four of us. He had us
do the sending test (part of it back then) to get it out of
the way, as he said - everyone can do this part.
 As a warm up, he sent the required three minute passage,
manually with a straight key. When two of us had a good copy
(less than three errors), he wrote out their pass slips,
sent them on their way, and told the other chap and me,
 "All right, this is the real test."  The other chap passed
and I had four receive errors.
  "Hmm .. better get it right this time - I'm going to give
you one more chance."  Third time lucky, or I had warmed up
to his style of sending (over 12 wpm if you ask me). He wrote
out my pass slip (really, I must frame it), and practically
begged me to use Morse and not just regard it as a necessary
evil to get on the HF bands.
   That was on the 6th of April, 1979.

 Three or four months later with practice on the radio,
(G4ICV in the post three weeks later) I needed something
faster than a straight key. I made a dual paddle keyer with
logic chips on Veroboard from a design in the RSGB's
Radio Communication, February 1980,
 "The 'ultimate' Keyer (Mk2) - with automatic intercharacter
spacing - C.I.B. Trusson, MSC, CEng, MIEE, G3RVM."
 I had 30 wpm contacts with that. It's the only iambic keyer
I can use accurately and it's still a magician's logic design
that can generate Morse from two paddles. In G3RVM's design,
he uses two 4011s, a 4023, 4001, 4002 and a 4013.
 A low priority task for me is to decode this logic and
enshrine it in a microcontroller.
 I regret dismantling my original mechanical design of this
to connect a Bencher paddle system.

  Now, I don't trust myself not to send a character short or
an extra dit or dah. I have given up completely with iambic
keyers.
  I prefer a straight key. But for faster sending,
I have programmed a PIC16F624 that lives inside a standard
PC keyboard that receives the incredible gibberish from its
data and clock lines and translates it to Morse using the
three keyboard LEDs for feedback.   I had interest from the
people at ARRL to publish this design - but one chip and an
optional resistor and output transistor isn't much of a hardware
project.  They suggested I write a tutorial on PIC programming.
  I never completed the suggested ARRL article.

 I have rewritten the firmware for a Freescale (Motorola) 908.
That's a processor, something I am really happy to programme.
See www.njqrp.org somewhere for a description about why a
linear address space 908 is nicer and more powerful than a
PIC chip.

For now, I have a unique keyboard keyer for whenever I rarely
need to go faster than I can send using my straight key.

Ian, G4ICV, AB2GR.
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Why is the K2 so easy to send CW with"
 
In My Humble Opinion - its all part of the Mojo!
 
Lee - K0WA


Common sense is in short supply - get some and use it.
If you can't find any common sense, ask for help from
somebody that has some common sense. - Lee Buller
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[W6IZT]

My experience is that various keyers have different feels to them. I think
this is probably the result of varying delays from input to output, however
subtle they may be. I went from a Kansas City keyer to a LogicKeyer and it
was almost like learning how to send all over again. If I recall in a side
by side comparison the KC keyer had a noticeable difference in delay.

Just my 2c worth

Gregg
W6IZT

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