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accurate time

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Bill Johnson-9

Re: accurate time

David,

I would love to have a copy to play with. Please understand that I am not
interested in clock accuracy just the tinkering and learning that comes
with. I don't use the clock on the K3 as I would rather see where the
second receiver is set.

73,

Bill
K9YEQ
K2 #35; KX1 #35; K3 #1744; mini mods

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of David Fleming
Sent: Tuesday, March 10, 2009 9:06 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] accurate time

Julian, G4ILO wrote:

> Dick was just outlining the method a programmer would use
> to set the time, the commands you would need to use. He was
> not giving you the actual program. :) The implementation would
> be quite tricky.

I wrote such a program last night. It did turn out to be a bit tricky, but
it actually works. It basically compares the time on the K3 with the time on
the computer and sends the approriate commands to make the two coincide.

Sending all of the neccessary commands, along with the various delays that
are required to make it work right, takes time. Depending on how many UP; or
DN; commands that are needed, it can take up to 0.5 second or so to complete
the update. This prevents getting the K3's clock set *exactly* to the tick
with the computer, but it gets it close enough. For me anyway.

I added a couple of "features" as well. There's a UTC option that allows
either UTC or local time. There's also a "Auto-Update" option that will set
the K3 clock automatically when the program in run without user
intervention. The program then terminates after the update is sent. This
allows scheduling of periodic updates - like every week, or every day, or
whatever.

If anyone is interested, I'll polish it up and make it available for
download. I've only played with it on the Mac, but I should be able to
compile it for Windows too.

David, W4SMT
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W6ODJ

Re: accurate time

In reply to this post by David Woolley (E.L)

For what it's worth, MacOS has an option to synchronize the computer's
time to the time standard at apple.com. Just go to Preferences:Date &
Time and check the button "Set Date and Time Automatically." The
apple.com time standard is linked to the bureau of standards clocks.
I think that apple uses ntp behind the scenes, but you don't have to
fuss with it. I used ntp in my Linux boxes, and it works fine there,
too.

Get a Mac! Use Windows on it only when you have to!

73,
Oliver Johns
W6ODJ

On Mar 10, 2009, at 1:26 AM, David Woolley (E.L) wrote:

> Dick Dievendorff wrote:
>>
>>
>> Recent versions of Windows (certainly XP and beyond) include an NTP
>> client
>
> Although it may not matter if you only want a non-resillient time
> source
> accurate to a few seconds, XP only contains a (broken)
> implementation of
> SNTP, not NTP. Windows 2003 contains an implementation of NTP,
> which is
> broken out of the box (it will not work against a real NTP server, and
> will accept time from servers indicating that they don't have a valid
> time), but may be configured to be compliant, or at least less broken.
> Out of the box, these all poll too slowly for tight time control,
> although well enough for Windows Kerberos to work.
>
>> that can synchronize with one of several NTP servers. You right
>> click the
>
> NTP requires several, as much of the specification is about using
> multiple servers to detect server problems and improve the time
> quality.
>
>> time in the status bar, choose "Adjust Date/Time", select the
>> "Internet
>> Time" tab, optionally provide an alternate NTP server and punch the
>> "update
>
> Two servers isn't enough, with true NTP, to isolate a faulty server.
>
>> now" button. No special NTP client code is required to get to the
>> accuracy
>> necessary for this sort of task.
>
> However, to get accuracy of the order of the tick interval on Windows,
> you need to use the open source reference implementation of NTP,
> rather
> than W32Time, and to get accuracy of the order of 10s of microseconds,
> you need to use Unix and a clock with a pulse per second output.
>
> For wristwatch and eyeball accuracy for logging W32Time may be OK, but
> not, especially out of the box, for anything that requires accurate
> time
> synchronisation.
>
> --
> David Woolley
> "The Elecraft list is a forum for the discussion of topics related to
> Elecraft products and more general topics related ham radio"
> List Guidelines <http://www.elecraft.com/elecraft_list_guidelines.htm>
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M0XDF

Re: accurate time

So does Windows.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174 - Mac user for 25 years!
--
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that,
you've got it made. -Groucho Marx

On 11 Mar 2009, at 23:02, Oliver Johns wrote:

> For what it's worth, MacOS has an option to synchronize the computer's
> time to the time standard at apple.com. Just go to Preferences:Date &
> Time and check the button "Set Date and Time Automatically." The
> apple.com time standard is linked to the bureau of standards clocks.
> I think that apple uses ntp behind the scenes, but you don't have to
> fuss with it. I used ntp in my Linux boxes, and it works fine there,
> too.
>
> Get a Mac! Use Windows on it only when you have to!

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WE0H

Re: accurate time

Linux adjusts the computer's clock automatically for the user. Nothing
to click or figure out...hi hi...

Mike
WE0H
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N5GE

Re: accurate time

On Thu, 12 Mar 2009 08:48:17 -0500, Mike-WE0H <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Linux adjusts the computer's clock automatically for the user. Nothing
>to click or figure out...hi hi...
>
>Mike
>WE0H
[snip]

So does windows if you point it at a time server ;o)

Tom, N5GE

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Dick Dievendorff

Re: accurate time

In reply to this post by WE0H

NIST seems to think that it is possible to do this with Windows operating
systems as well.

http://tf.nist.gov/service/pdf/win2000xp.pdf

Dick, K6KR

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike-WE0H
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] accurate time

Linux adjusts the computer's clock automatically for the user. Nothing
to click or figure out...hi hi...

Mike
WE0H
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Ken Kopp-3

accurate time

I've been synching my computers clocks with the NIST
site for years. I think they have a little program on their
website that one can download ... at least I think that's
where I got mine

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Mitch Wolfson DJØQN

Re: accurate time

I find that the NTP client built into Windows often does not work, plus
updating only once a week is not enough on some computers (some computer
clocks have accuracy that rival those in older cars, or the K3).

Therefore, I have been using a small program called "Dimension4" for a
number of years, and I can highly recommend it. You set it once to update as
often as you want to a server of your choice, and you can forget it is even
there.

I have mine update every 15 minutes. I know that makes me a nut case, but at
least my log is accurate ;-)

Dimension4 is free from the following web site:
http://www.thinkman.com/

73,
Mitch DJØQN

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Kopp" <[hidden email]>
To: "Dick Dievendorff" <[hidden email]>; "'Mike-WE0H'" <[hidden email]>;
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 6:22 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] accurate time

> I've been synching my computers clocks with the NIST
> site for years. I think they have a little program on their
> website that one can download ... at least I think that's
> where I got mine
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

ac0h

Re: accurate time

I've been using D4 for years starting off on Win2K.
It checks PC time on boot and every 15 minutes thereafter against NIST
NTP servers and adjusts the PC clock.

When your doing satellite tracking you have to have an accurate clock in
the computer.

Mitch Wolfson DJØQN wrote:

> I find that the NTP client built into Windows often does not work, plus
> updating only once a week is not enough on some computers (some computer
> clocks have accuracy that rival those in older cars, or the K3).
>
> Therefore, I have been using a small program called "Dimension4" for a
> number of years, and I can highly recommend it. You set it once to update as
> often as you want to a server of your choice, and you can forget it is even
> there.
>
> I have mine update every 15 minutes. I know that makes me a nut case, but at
> least my log is accurate ;-)
>
> Dimension4 is free from the following web site:
> http://www.thinkman.com/
>
> 73,
> Mitch DJØQN

--
R. Kevin Stover, ACØH
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: accurate time

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3

Ken and all,

I have been using Atomic Clock Sync for a couple years now to keep the
computer clock accurate. It runs on Windows, but I recall it is
multi-platform. Free from http://www.worldtimeserver.com. It works
with a variety of standard time sites.

Try it, you may like it too.

73,
Don W3FPR

Ken Kopp wrote:
> I've been synching my computers clocks with the NIST
> site for years. I think they have a little program on their
> website that one can download ... at least I think that's
> where I got mine
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
>
>
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Adam Koczarski

Re: accurate time

In reply to this post by Ken Kopp-3

I've been using Dimension 4 for years on servers and workstations. You can
get it here:

http://www.thinkman.com/dimension4/

At an interval you specify, Dimension 4 connects to a time server that you
choose from an exhaustive list of time servers. The time server then sends
the correct time back to your computer, where Dimension 4 uses sophisticated
algorithms to correctly adjust your PC's clock to with-in a few milliseconds
of the real time.

Adam - ka7ark

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:elecraft-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken Kopp
> Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 10:22 AM
> To: Dick Dievendorff; 'Mike-WE0H'; [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] accurate time
>
> I've been synching my computers clocks with the NIST
> site for years. I think they have a little program on their
> website that one can download ... at least I think that's
> where I got mine
>
> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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Mike Markowski

Re: accurate time

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

For situations where time is important, it's worth learning about NTP. It's an
open protocol and is run by default on most unix-like OSes. Unlike the Windows
NTP client which simply syncs every couple weeks (by default), an ntp daemon is
running always on your machine. It doesn't do a simple sync but continually, to
use the word loosely, monitors nearby time servers. The linux laptop in my
shack is always right on time, plus or minus such a tiny amount that it doesn't
matter.

The protocol is used worldwide and was initially developed by Prof Dave Mills at
Univ of Delaware, my alma mater. As an EE grad student, I used to enjoy
attending his presentations on NTP.

"Does anybody really know what time it is?" - Chicago :-)

73,
Mike ab3ap

PS NTP can even sync against WWV for time keepers on isolated nets.

Don Wilhelm wrote:

> Ken and all,
>
> I have been using Atomic Clock Sync for a couple years now to keep the
> computer clock accurate. It runs on Windows, but I recall it is
> multi-platform. Free from http://www.worldtimeserver.com. It works
> with a variety of standard time sites.
>
> Try it, you may like it too.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> Ken Kopp wrote:
>> I've been synching my computers clocks with the NIST
>> site for years. I think they have a little program on their
>> website that one can download ... at least I think that's
>> where I got mine
>>
>> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP

M0XDF

Re: accurate time

Yes, NTP actually takes into account network latency between your
machine and the NTP server, so when the server gives it 12:01:01.001,
if the total latency is 100mS, it knows to add 50mS and so sets the
time to 12:01:01.051 and it does this a number of times, to get the
average time allowing for latency.

That's a bit of a simplification, but you get the idea.
73 de M0XDF, K3 #174

--
A person usually has two reasons for doing something: a good reason
and the
real reason. -Thomas Carlyle, historian and essayist (1795-1881)

On 12 Mar 2009, at 19:49, Mike Markowski wrote:

> For situations where time is important, it's worth learning about
> NTP. It's an
> open protocol and is run by default on most unix-like OSes. Unlike
> the Windows
> NTP client which simply syncs every couple weeks (by default), an
> ntp daemon is
> running always on your machine. It doesn't do a simple sync but
> continually, to
> use the word loosely, monitors nearby time servers. The linux
> laptop in my
> shack is always right on time, plus or minus such a tiny amount that
> it doesn't
> matter.
>
> The protocol is used worldwide and was initially developed by Prof
> Dave Mills at
> Univ of Delaware, my alma mater. As an EE grad student, I used to
> enjoy
> attending his presentations on NTP.
>
> "Does anybody really know what time it is?" - Chicago :-)
>
> 73,
> Mike ab3ap
>
> PS NTP can even sync against WWV for time keepers on isolated nets.
>
> Don Wilhelm wrote:
>> Ken and all,
>>
>> I have been using Atomic Clock Sync for a couple years now to keep
>> the
>> computer clock accurate. It runs on Windows, but I recall it is
>> multi-platform. Free from http://www.worldtimeserver.com. It works
>> with a variety of standard time sites.
>>
>> Try it, you may like it too.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> Ken Kopp wrote:
>>> I've been synching my computers clocks with the NIST
>>> site for years. I think they have a little program on their
>>> website that one can download ... at least I think that's
>>> where I got mine
>>>
>>> 73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
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Jon Kåre Hellan

Re: accurate time

In reply to this post by Mike Markowski

Mike Markowski wrote:

> For situations where time is important, it's worth learning about NTP. It's an
> open protocol and is run by default on most unix-like OSes. Unlike the Windows
> NTP client which simply syncs every couple weeks (by default), an ntp daemon is
> running always on your machine. It doesn't do a simple sync but continually, to
> use the word loosely, monitors nearby time servers. The linux laptop in my
> shack is always right on time, plus or minus such a tiny amount that it doesn't
> matter.
>
> The protocol is used worldwide and was initially developed by Prof Dave Mills at
> Univ of Delaware, my alma mater. As an EE grad student, I used to enjoy
> attending his presentations on NTP.

He's W3HCF and has a link to the W3UD Amateur Radio Club on his professional home page.

Jon LA4RT
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