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continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

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Jorge Diez - CX6VM

continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Hello,

I have my beverage connected to the RX ANT IN and I can transmit into my TX
antenna while RX ANT is turned on without problem.

I tried to connect my 40 mts yagi to RX ANT IN because it was listening very
good, but I hear a continuous clicking, like a relay. What´s that? Why with
one antenna is OK and with the other I hear this click click click?

Any idea?

Thanks,

Jorge

CX6VM/CW5W

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Jorge,

The clicking you hear is the COR (carrier operated relay) on the RX ANT
activating to protect the K3 receiver.
Your 40 mtr Yagi is picking up much more of your TX signal than the
Beverage.
You should take steps to reduce the amount of TX signal picked up by the
RX ant.

73,
Don W3FPR

Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I have my beverage connected to the RX ANT IN and I can transmit into my TX
> antenna while RX ANT is turned on without problem.
>
>
>
> I tried to connect my 40 mts yagi to RX ANT IN because it was listening very
> good, but I hear a continuous clicking, like a relay. What´s that? Why with
> one antenna is OK and with the other I hear this click click click?
>
>
>

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W8JI

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

In reply to this post by Jorge Diez - CX6VM

<< have my beverage connected to the RX ANT IN and I can transmit into my TX
antenna while RX ANT is turned on without problem.
I tried to connect my 40 mts yagi to RX ANT IN because it was listening very
good, but I hear a continuous clicking, like a relay. What´s that? Why with
one antenna is OK and with the other I hear this click click click?>>>

Jorge,

What band? What is your TX antenna for that band and how far from the 40
meter antenna is the TX antenna?

73 Tom

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Jorge Diez - CX6VM

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Hi Tom,

Seems is the proximity of the antennas.

I was using a sloper for 160 mts from a 118ft tower and the 40-2CD was on
top of this tower.

So I couldn´t connect the 40-2CD in the RX ANT IN.

So I switch the knob in my sixpack to listen in the 40 and then switch again
to TX on the 160 antenna, hope this will not cause a problem in the rig?

Thanks!

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Tom W8JI [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviado el: Domingo, 11 de Julio de 2010 05:52 p.m.
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

<< have my beverage connected to the RX ANT IN and I can transmit into my TX
antenna while RX ANT is turned on without problem.
I tried to connect my 40 mts yagi to RX ANT IN because it was listening very
good, but I hear a continuous clicking, like a relay. What´s that? Why with
one antenna is OK and with the other I hear this click click click?>>>

Jorge,

What band? What is your TX antenna for that band and how far from the 40
meter antenna is the TX antenna?

73 Tom

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Brett Howard

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

I had this going on too and a really slick way to fix the problem is
with an RF limiter...

http://www.iceradioproducts.com/reconly.html#rflimiter

I.C.E. makes a very cost effective unit that gets the job done very
well... I ordered the 196 unit and then I didn't want to have it with
RCA connectors on it so I asked them to build it wit the BNC connectors
like they do on the VHF unit. They had no problem with that and did so
no extra cost.

~Brett (N7MG)

On Sun, 2010-07-11 at 18:27 -0300, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

> ems is the proximity of the antennas.
>
> I was using a sloper for 160 mts from a 118ft tower and the 40-2CD was
> on
> top of this tower.
>
> So I couldn´t connect the 40-2CD in the RX ANT IN.
>
> So I switch the knob in my sixpack to listen in the 40 and then switch
> again
> to TX on the 160 antenna, hope this will not cause a problem in the
> rig?
>
> Thanks!

Vic K2VCO

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

I made an even more cost-effective one: I put a couple of diodes in parallel (anode to
cathode) across the connector in the old coax switch I use for receiving antennas. I wrote
"FOR RECEIVE ONLY!" on the switch in big letters.

Oh yes, I also put an ancient low-pass filter between it and the antenna so it would not
become a VHF harmonic generator!

On 7/11/2010 6:28 PM, Brett Howard wrote:

> I had this going on too and a really slick way to fix the problem is
> with an RF limiter...
>
> http://www.iceradioproducts.com/reconly.html#rflimiter
>
> I.C.E. makes a very cost effective unit that gets the job done very
> well... I ordered the 196 unit and then I didn't want to have it with
> RCA connectors on it so I asked them to build it wit the BNC connectors
> like they do on the VHF unit. They had no problem with that and did so
> no extra cost.

--
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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W8JI

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

>I made an even more cost-effective one: I put a couple of diodes in
>parallel (anode to
> cathode) across the connector in the old coax switch I use for receiving
> antennas. I wrote
> "FOR RECEIVE ONLY!" on the switch in big letters.

I can't do that here Vic because on most of my antennas the net power from
the antennas results in a peak voltage much greater than 0.5 volts.

.5 volts peak, which is the approximate conduction limit of a silicon
rectifier like a 1N4007, is only 4 dBm!!!! That will turn your K3 into a
Yaesu FT-101 for IM and even order performance.

73 Tom

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P.B. Christensen

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

> .5 volts peak, which is the approximate conduction limit of a silicon
> rectifier like a 1N4007, is only 4 dBm!!!! That will turn your K3 into a
> Yaesu FT-101 for IM and even order performance.

Reminds me of my first Field Day in 1975 while in high school. Multiple
stations, one per band, no amps. We couldn't understand why an incandescent
lamp on the back panel of my friend's FT-101B was glowing brightly when
stations on other bands were operating. As I recall, we had a reasonable
distance between antennas. Of course, the lamp was there for overload
protection and it didn't take much RF coupled back to the antenna to
activate it. The FT-101B was absolutely unusable for FD. Being new into
this at the time, we had not let discovered stub and filtering concepts but
it was an important learning moment.

Looking back, I cannot think of a receiver I've used that had poorer
overload performance than the FT-101. For us K2/K3 owners, glad those days
are long gone...

Paul, W9AC

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W8JI

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

In reply to this post by Jorge Diez - CX6VM

<I was using a sloper for 160 mts from a 118ft tower and the 40-2CD was on
top of this tower.
So I couldn´t connect the 40-2CD in the RX ANT IN.
So I switch the knob in my sixpack to listen in the 40 and then switch again
to TX on the 160 antenna, hope this will not cause a problem in the rig?>

Here is a very major problem people with slopers should watch for. The
sloper uses the tower as the counterpoise, and the tower structure has the
same current at the connection point as flows into the sloper wire we call
the antenna! If we have three amps of RF into the sloper, the tower is
excited with 3 amps also!!!

This means the 40 meter antenna on the tower, since it is a major part of
the counterpoise for the sloper antenna to work against, has substantial
element currents when using the sloper.

I would use a disconnect relay with good isolation to disconnect and ground
the center conductor of the 40 meter Yagi when using your sloper to
transmit! Remember the 40 meter antenna is really a radial system for the
sloper.

This is a very good way to damage a receiver, and the little "low power"
limiters that are often successful for minor problems should not be trusted
in a case like this where one antenna is a directly connected part of the
other antenna system. Years ago I measured the 80 meter Inverted V of a
friend of mine who had a 160 sloper on the same tower, and he had almost 200
or 300 watts into a dummy load on the 80 meter antenna when using the sloper
at 1500 watts on 160.

Use a relay Jorge along with a regular small limiter and be sure it is 100%
safe to be disconnected before transmitting with a limiter for backup.

73 Tom

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Vic K2VCO

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

In reply to this post by W8JI

You are correct. In my case, I am using a ferrite loop on 160 and a short vertical on high
bands to provide a second channel for polarization-diversity reception. The main antennas
are a vertical on 160, and full size dipoles and a beam on the other bands, which of
course I use for transmitting.

So the voltage produced by the receiving antennas is relatively low. I agree that it
wouldn't work with a resonant antenna.

But couldn't you just put several diodes in series, like this:

--+-->|------>|---+--
|--|<------|<---|

if you want a higher clipping level?

On 7/12/2010 6:37 AM, Tom W8JI wrote:

>> I made an even more cost-effective one: I put a couple of diodes in
>> parallel (anode to
>> cathode) across the connector in the old coax switch I use for
>> receiving antennas. I wrote
>> "FOR RECEIVE ONLY!" on the switch in big letters.
>
> I can't do that here Vic because on most of my antennas the net power
> from the antennas results in a peak voltage much greater than 0.5 volts.
>
> .5 volts peak, which is the approximate conduction limit of a silicon
> rectifier like a 1N4007, is only 4 dBm!!!! That will turn your K3 into a
> Yaesu FT-101 for IM and even order performance.
>
> 73 Tom

W8JI

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Hi Vic,

> So the voltage produced by the receiving antennas is relatively low. I
> agree that it wouldn't work with a resonant antenna.

On my Beverage antennas (which are low gain) the accumulation of AM BC
signals, SW BC signals, and so on at night is enough to light the filament
of a 12 volt subminature lamp a dull reddish glow!! Really freaky to watch
the filament brightness QSB up at night.

> But couldn't you just put several diodes in series, like this:
>
> --+-->|------>|---+--
> |--|<------|<---|
> if you want a higher clipping level?

You could, but I probably would not do that for several reasons (mostly
related to IM performance and clamping harness). A much better solution is
to use a zener-biased shunt clamp with fast diodes and a low current fuse
made from a small low voltage lamp, but a voltage source is required to bias
the zener.

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Steve Ellington

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Accumulate?
So assuming there is 5 volts AC across that bulb, you could install 22 more
of these antennas, connect them in series and get 110VAC. This would take
the place of our solar cells after sundown!

Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
To: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, July 12, 2010 1:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

> Hi Vic,
>
>> So the voltage produced by the receiving antennas is relatively low. I
>> agree that it wouldn't work with a resonant antenna.
>
> On my Beverage antennas (which are low gain) the accumulation of AM BC
> signals, SW BC signals, and so on at night is enough to light the filament
> of a 12 volt subminature lamp a dull reddish glow!! Really freaky to watch
> the filament brightness QSB up at night.
>
>> But couldn't you just put several diodes in series, like this:
>>
>> --+-->|------>|---+--
>> |--|<------|<---|
>> if you want a higher clipping level?
>
> You could, but I probably would not do that for several reasons (mostly
> related to IM performance and clamping harness). A much better solution is
> to use a zener-biased shunt clamp with fast diodes and a low current fuse
> made from a small low voltage lamp, but a voltage source is required to
> bias
> the zener.
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Jorge Diez - CX6VM

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

I found in my shack a Front End Saver http://www.radio-ware.com/products/fes.htm that I never installed.

Seems is similar to this made from ICE, at least will add extra protection to the K3, what do you think?

Or it will decrease the RX signals I can receive in the K3?

Thanks,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Brett Howard [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviado el: Domingo, 11 de Julio de 2010 10:29 p.m.
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM
CC: 'Tom W8JI'; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

I had this going on too and a really slick way to fix the problem is
with an RF limiter...

http://www.iceradioproducts.com/reconly.html#rflimiter

I.C.E. makes a very cost effective unit that gets the job done very
well... I ordered the 196 unit and then I didn't want to have it with
RCA connectors on it so I asked them to build it wit the BNC connectors
like they do on the VHF unit. They had no problem with that and did so
no extra cost.

~Brett (N7MG)

On Sun, 2010-07-11 at 18:27 -0300, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

> ems is the proximity of the antennas.
>
> I was using a sloper for 160 mts from a 118ft tower and the 40-2CD was
> on
> top of this tower.
>
> So I couldnt connect the 40-2CD in the RX ANT IN.
>
> So I switch the knob in my sixpack to listen in the 40 and then switch
> again
> to TX on the 160 antenna, hope this will not cause a problem in the
> rig?
>
> Thanks!

W8JI

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

> Seems is similar to this made from ICE, at least will add extra protection
> to the K3, what do you think?
>
> Or it will decrease the RX signals I can receive in the K3?

As far as I know that unit uses reed relays, and should have no detectable
loss. I think there might be two models of that, but I have only seen a reed
relay version.

The advantage of the one I saw is the low loss and no signal distortion
using relays. You must run the amplifier relay control through it to be sure
the protection sequence is correct.

73 Tom

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Jorge Diez - CX6VM

Re: continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Thanks Tom,

I have the later version, will check with relays it have.

Will install it, taking care of the amp relay control. I have the diagram to
connect it right.

Thanks !

73,
Jorge
CX6VM/CW5W

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Tom W8JI [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviado el: Martes, 13 de Julio de 2010 11:37 a.m.
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM; 'Elecraft Reflector'
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

> Seems is similar to this made from ICE, at least will add extra protection

> to the K3, what do you think?
>
> Or it will decrease the RX signals I can receive in the K3?

As far as I know that unit uses reed relays, and should have no detectable
loss. I think there might be two models of that, but I have only seen a reed

relay version.

The advantage of the one I saw is the low loss and no signal distortion
using relays. You must run the amplifier relay control through it to be sure

the protection sequence is correct.

73 Tom

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Jorge Diez - CX6VM

(K3) diversity - relay click

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Hello,

I am using diversity and I notice something like a relay inside the K3 when
transmitting.

Some weeks ago Don told me about a problem I has with the RX ANT IN. The
problem was that the antenna I was using in RX ANT IN was very close to the
TX antenna.

In the case of diversity I have a 160 delta loop connected in AUX RF and a
160 sloper connected to the ANT1.

In this case the two antennas must be far away one from the other?

This is the same problem I had when using a RX antenna in RX ANT IN?

Thanks,
Jorge
CX6VM

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviado el: Domingo, 11 de Julio de 2010 09:51 a.m.
Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM
CC: 'Elecraft Reflector'
Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] continuous relay click in RX ANT IN

Jorge,

The clicking you hear is the COR (carrier operated relay) on the RX ANT
activating to protect the K3 receiver.
Your 40 mtr Yagi is picking up much more of your TX signal than the
Beverage.
You should take steps to reduce the amount of TX signal picked up by the
RX ant.

73,
Don W3FPR

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Brett Howard

Re: (K3) diversity - relay click

Yep you're probably activating your carrier operated relays because you
don't have enough separation between your antennas. Perhaps a limiter
could help if you're not transmitting on both of them.

~Brett (N7MG)

On Sun, 2010-09-19 at 23:09 -0300, Jorge Diez - CX6VM wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I am using diversity and I notice something like a relay inside the K3 when
> transmitting.
>
> Some weeks ago Don told me about a problem I has with the RX ANT IN. The
> problem was that the antenna I was using in RX ANT IN was very close to the
> TX antenna.
>
> In the case of diversity I have a 160 delta loop connected in AUX RF and a
> 160 sloper connected to the ANT1.
>
> In this case the two antennas must be far away one from the other?
>
> This is the same problem I had when using a RX antenna in RX ANT IN?
>
> Thanks,
> Jorge
> CX6VM
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Don Wilhelm [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Enviado el: Domingo, 11 de Julio de 2010 09:51 a.m.
> Para: Jorge Diez - CX6VM
> CC: 'Elecraft Reflector'
> Asunto: Re: [Elecraft] continuous relay click in RX ANT IN
>
> Jorge,
>
> The clicking you hear is the COR (carrier operated relay) on the RX ANT
> activating to protect the K3 receiver.
> Your 40 mtr Yagi is picking up much more of your TX signal than the
> Beverage.
> You should take steps to reduce the amount of TX signal picked up by the
> RX ant.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html