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extended double Zepp

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Rstafford12

extended double Zepp

I realize this is another somewhat not on topic post, but it is in regards to my KX1 and KX3. I have a mature pine forest; 60 -70 foot trees. How compromised would an EDZ be hung 45 feet up about four rows of trees in from the perimeter? No branches or needles inside the forest until 50 feet up. Richard KD0NPM
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Fred Townsend-2

Re: extended double Zepp

Richard:
I have run a double Zepp hung from the trees as you suggest. If you can do it I would get the antenna across the tops of the trees. 45' is too low for 80M unless you are running NVIS in which case you are too high at 45'. Keep in mind that pine trees are parasitic so keep the wire, even if insulated, away from the trees. Inverted V works if you can't maintain 60'.
73,
Fred, AE6QL

-----Original Message-----
>From: Rstafford12 <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Jun 25, 2014 11:12 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: [Elecraft] extended double Zepp
>
>I realize this is another somewhat not on topic post, but it is in regards to my KX1 and KX3. I have a mature pine forest; 60 -70 foot trees. How compromised would an EDZ be hung 45 feet up about four rows of trees in from the perimeter? No branches or needles inside the forest until 50 feet up. Richard KD0NPM

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Rick WA6NHC

Re: extended double Zepp

You didn't mention your primary band (to determine how long it is).

I have an 80M EDZ (340' end to end of #14, 2- 5/8 wavelength center fed) in the oak trees. It is too low but it is all I can mange (the trees rarely grow above 50' plus airport, HOA, CCR). I have 230 countries (5 on 160) over the last few years with casual operating, so I guess it's doing ok.

Keep it out of the trees as much as possible, feed it with window/ladder line (much lower loss and helps transform the high impedances down) and expect tuning variances with seasons and weather (has to do with the feed and the plant moisture). Use a good common mode choke (every time, every antenna)!

If the trees are indeed parasitic, insulation won't affect that, but is still a good idea in pines because the needles are acidic (it'll react badly with the copper). Squirrels are a bigger problem, being rodents they MUST chew to wear their teeth down.

Make it as high as you can get it then have fun. Don't stress about straight lines and leave it sloppy enough that the wire will slide through the branches as they wave in the breeze (they never wave the same direction at the same time). If you tension it, something will break. I only anchor the far ends of the wire, everything else sags and is in motion, including the feed. This is reason #2 for insulated wire, it's slicker so it slides through the branches better.

Although you didn't ask, if you really have real estate with tall trees and want to play, run the full wave 160 M loop through EZNEC and you'll see that 165' per side (assuming square) will allow you to have decent matches on ALL ham bands <30 Mhz. Someday I'll have to try that one, hard to do on a quarter acre. If you run a similar design based on say 80 meters, every other band is resonant; the 160 meter is good for all bands. I don't know why.

Another option is vertically oriented loops at 90 deg angles (because they have directivity) to each other with a remote antenna switch... With a four port switch you could not only change directions, you could change polarity... Or figure out phasing lines to run them together, the phase choice would 'turn' the directivity...

Of course there is an absorbent factor with trees too, creating loss, another reason for max height, less tree cover up high.

Antenna can be fun!

73,
Rick, WA6NHC

iPad = small keypad = typos = sorry ;-)

> On Jun 25, 2014, at 12:14 PM, Fred Townsend <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Richard:
> I have run a double Zepp hung from the trees as you suggest. If you can do it I would get the antenna across the tops of the trees. 45' is too low for 80M unless you are running NVIS in which case you are too high at 45'. Keep in mind that pine trees are parasitic so keep the wire, even if insulated, away from the trees. Inverted V works if you can't maintain 60'.
> 73,
> Fred, AE6QL
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rstafford12 <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Jun 25, 2014 11:12 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Elecraft] extended double Zepp
>>
>> I realize this is another somewhat not on topic post, but it is in regards to my KX1 and KX3. I have a mature pine forest; 60 -70 foot trees. How compromised would an EDZ be hung 45 feet up about four rows of trees in from the perimeter? No branches or needles inside the forest until 50 feet up. Richard KD0NPM
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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kevinr@coho.net

Re: extended double Zepp

In reply to this post by Rstafford12

Hi Richard,
While I do not have experience with pine trees (they don't grow
here in Oregon) I do have many years of experience with coniferous trees
and antennas. Don't lay your wire across the tops of them as suggested
you will only be frustrated by how little time they will spend in the
air. You may get one month but that would be luck. Any breeze coming
along will knock them down. My trees ( a mix of hemlock, Douglas fir,
and western redcedar) block propagation when they are wet but mostly at
higher frequencies. 70 centimeters is the most highly effected. On a
typically foggy day you need to find a hole in the trees for a hand held
to work at all. However, at the lower frequencies of HF you won't
experience much attenuation at all. Since you're running a wire at
right angles to the trunks there won't be much effect from them. I have
one inverted V and one flat top doublet. 80 meters is limited to upper
California to lower British Columbia and then out into the desert areas
of the northern Great Basin. The biggest problem to propagation is
having the Pacific Ocean out to my west. There are not a lot of 80
meter operators there.
Another problem with coniferous trees is snow loading. This is how
I lose my antennas. After our typically wet snow falls the limbs can
lower by as much as forty feet. The normal failure mode is for the
antenna lines to part from their central connection when the drooping
limbs capture the wires and pull them loose. I then use my F-250 to
pull down the lines holding up the remaining bits of the antenna and
rebuild it. I need to use the truck since the lines are quickly
attached to the trees by growth or from pitch. Limbs falling can also
be a problem but this only happens during the larger storms. Get your
support lines as close as you can to the trunk of the tree; any further
out and the trees will shed the lines quickly letting you practice
putting them back up again.
By the way, fir trees don't become mature until they are around 300
years old. By then they are normally one hundred feet tall if they have
not been pruned by storms. I have a few of these older trees around my
property but most of them are new growth of less than 60 years of age.
While my normal noise floor is S1 it drops even further when there is a
foot of snow on the trees. But then I am also losing a fair amount of
signal to all that supported water. My antennas use insulated wire which
helps them from shorting to ground but when the antennas carry an inch
or two of snow the signal is attenuated. The first breeze coming by
normally clears the antenna wires and my received signal strength jumps
by an S unit or two.
Good luck,
Kevin. KD5ONS

On 6/25/2014 11:12 AM, Rstafford12 wrote:

> I realize this is another somewhat not on topic post, but it is in regards to my KX1 and KX3. I have a mature pine forest; 60 -70 foot trees. How compromised would an EDZ be hung 45 feet up about four rows of trees in from the perimeter? No branches or needles inside the forest until 50 feet up. Richard KD0NPM
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: extended double Zepp

I like the EDZ also. In fact they work very well as a sloper also. While mine are obviously higher, any real height on one end and as much height as you can get on the other is a good choice. Mine are in 90 degree quadrature and also 352 feet long center fed. Take a tour of the QTH on California Hammin'.

Mel, K6KBE

On Wednesday, June 25, 2014 1:15 PM, Kevin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Richard,
While I do not have experience with pine trees (they don't grow
here in Oregon) I do have many years of experience with coniferous trees
and antennas. Don't lay your wire across the tops of them as suggested
you will only be frustrated by how little time they will spend in the
air. You may get one month but that would be luck. Any breeze coming
along will knock them down. My trees ( a mix of hemlock, Douglas fir,
and western redcedar) block propagation when they are wet but mostly at
higher frequencies. 70 centimeters is the most highly effected. On a
typically foggy day you need to find a hole in the trees for a hand held
to work at all. However, at the lower frequencies of HF you won't
experience much attenuation at all. Since you're running a wire at
right angles to the trunks there won't be much effect from them. I have
one inverted V and one flat top doublet. 80 meters is limited to upper
California to lower British Columbia and then out into the desert areas
of the northern Great Basin. The biggest problem to propagation is
having the Pacific Ocean out to my west. There are not a lot of 80
meter operators there.
Another problem with coniferous trees is snow loading. This is how
I lose my antennas. After our typically wet snow falls the limbs can
lower by as much as forty feet. The normal failure mode is for the
antenna lines to part from their central connection when the drooping
limbs capture the wires and pull them loose. I then use my F-250 to
pull down the lines holding up the remaining bits of the antenna and
rebuild it. I need to use the truck since the lines are quickly
attached to the trees by growth or from pitch. Limbs falling can also
be a problem but this only happens during the larger storms. Get your
support lines as close as you can to the trunk of the tree; any further
out and the trees will shed the lines quickly letting you practice
putting them back up again.
By the way, fir trees don't become mature until they are around 300
years old. By then they are normally one hundred feet tall if they have
not been pruned by storms. I have a few of these older trees around my
property but most of them are new growth of less than 60 years of age.
While my normal noise floor is S1 it drops even further when there is a
foot of snow on the trees. But then I am also losing a fair amount of
signal to all that supported water. My antennas use insulated wire which
helps them from shorting to ground but when the antennas carry an inch
or two of snow the signal is attenuated. The first breeze coming by
normally clears the antenna wires and my received signal strength jumps
by an S unit or two.
Good luck,
Kevin. KD5ONS

On 6/25/2014 11:12 AM, Rstafford12 wrote:

>

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Re: extended double Zepp

In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2

When I moved my 80/40 trapped dipole from 40 feet to 60 feet I
immediately started hearing strong DX on both bands. I use a slingshot
with a 1 oz fishing weight and 35 lb mono-filament line. The old
fashioned slingshot without the wrist support works best. The wrist
support seems to somehow complicate the launch and snag the line. I
paint the weight fluorescent orange to make it easier to find on the
other side of the tree.

45 feet works great for 20. But, the extra height really makes a huge
difference on 40 and 80. I worked New Zealand on 40 with 10 watts out
of the KX3. I never heard New Zealand on 40 ever until jacking up the wire.

73, Doug --K0DXV

On 6/25/14, 1:14 PM, Fred Townsend wrote:

> Richard:
> I have run a double Zepp hung from the trees as you suggest. If you can do it I would get the antenna across the tops of the trees. 45' is too low for 80M unless you are running NVIS in which case you are too high at 45'. Keep in mind that pine trees are parasitic so keep the wire, even if insulated, away from the trees. Inverted V works if you can't maintain 60'.
> 73,
> Fred, AE6QL
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rstafford12 <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Jun 25, 2014 11:12 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: [Elecraft] extended double Zepp
>>
>> I realize this is another somewhat not on topic post, but it is in regards to my KX1 and KX3. I have a mature pine forest; 60 -70 foot trees. How compromised would an EDZ be hung 45 feet up about four rows of trees in from the perimeter? No branches or needles inside the forest until 50 feet up. Richard KD0NPM
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Hank Garretson

Re: extended double Zepp

In reply to this post by Fred Townsend-2

On Wed, Jun 25, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Fred Townsend <[hidden email]>
wrote:

... 45' is too low for 80M unless you are running NVIS in which case you
> are too high at 45'. ...
>

Please don't take this comment too literally.

Yes, for eighty, put your horizontal antenna as high as you can manage. But
if 45 feet is the best you can manage, go with it.

My antenna is 46 feet high, and I work the world on eighty.

Put your eighty-meter antenna as high as you can and then get on the air
and have fun. You'll work plenty of guys all over the world.

73,

Hank, W6SX
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