ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
 
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The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home
theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and plugging the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in turn resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in potential between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on the left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with the coaxial cable. Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through them. My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any reason the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. Thoughts? Nick -- *N6OL* Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not worth supporting. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the large
rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through each, tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. 73, and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Technical Specialist ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home > theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required > running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and plugging > the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in turn > resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in potential > between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 > low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type > that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on the > left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with the > coaxial cable. > > Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't > terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade > electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite > clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through > them. > > My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be > immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker > side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of > folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any reason > the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. > > Thoughts? > > Nick > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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In reply to this post by Nicklas Johnson
I'm experiencing something similar. I have my sub-2 output connected to bass
shakers on my sofa, and the wiring picks up an incredible amount of RF on 20. As my wife found out when she was taking a nap in the room while I was contesting. As soon as I switched to 20 she was getting rumbled to the pattern of CQ TEST. That was an interesting conversation, and something I will look at this summer. As for your low frequencies getting into your left and right main, why not switch them to "small" in the AVR menu, and let the sub do all the work below 80 Hz? I have had some luck putting ferrites just before the speaker terminals in the past. I sadly cut all my speaker cable to length so there's no room to wind around a core, so these will need to be clamp-ons for me. I get into my center and surrounds on 40 and 20. Or I can tell my XYL to nap in the living room, since there's just the two of us in the house. - pjd -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Nicklas Johnson Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2020 12:38 PM To: elecraft <[hidden email]> Subject: [Elecraft] ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers? The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and plugging the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in turn resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in potential between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on the left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with the coaxial cable. Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through them. My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any reason the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. Thoughts? Nick -- *N6OL* Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not worth supporting. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email]
Lovin' my K3S (S/N 10023)
73, Peter W2IRT |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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In reply to this post by NK7Z
I've got a set of these on the way, as well as a handful of their next two
smaller siblings, just because I like to have a variety in my desk for various applications: https://www.fair-rite.com/product/round-cable-snap-its-2631181381/ Given the arrangement at the subwoofer of wall-connection-->isolation transformers-->subwoofer, would you put the ferrite right before the subwoofer then? I didn't think about adding one at the amp; though I haven't had problems with any common mode noise getting into the amp from the other speakers in the room, I can't be sure about the LFE coaxial cable, so that wouldn't hurt. Nick On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:08, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the large > rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through each, > tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. > > 73, and thanks, > Dave (NK7Z) > https://www.nk7z.net > ARRL Volunteer Examiner > ARRL Technical Specialist > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > > On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > > The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home > > theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required > > running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and > plugging > > the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in turn > > resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in potential > > between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 > > low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type > > that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on the > > left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with > the > > coaxial cable. > > > > Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't > > terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade > > electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite > > clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through > > them. > > > > My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be > > immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker > > side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of > > folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any > reason > > the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Nick > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > -- *N6OL* Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not worth supporting. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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I would put the ferrite material as close to the speaker as possible,
and as close as possible to the amp... It is important you also protect the amp from stray RF. If the speaker cable is picking up RF, and feeding it back into the audio amp output stage, you can get rectification within that stage in the amp, thus feeding actual audio, (not RF), back down the speaker cable into the speaker(s), and then you start hearing things on the speaker(s). I had a ham friend living 700 or 800 feet from me-- when he lit off his KW, I would hear SSB in the speakers, even with the amp off, and unplugged. This was happening via the method above. See Jim's paper on quieting things down: http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf 73, and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Technical Specialist ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources On 5/23/20 10:19 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > I've got a set of these on the way, as well as a handful of their next two > smaller siblings, just because I like to have a variety in my desk for > various applications: > https://www.fair-rite.com/product/round-cable-snap-its-2631181381/ > > Given the arrangement at the subwoofer of wall-connection-->isolation > transformers-->subwoofer, would you put the ferrite right before the > subwoofer then? > > I didn't think about adding one at the amp; though I haven't had problems > with any common mode noise getting into the amp from the other speakers in > the room, I can't be sure about the LFE coaxial cable, so that wouldn't > hurt. > > Nick > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:08, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the large >> rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through each, >> tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. >> >> 73, and thanks, >> Dave (NK7Z) >> https://www.nk7z.net >> ARRL Volunteer Examiner >> ARRL Technical Specialist >> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources >> >> On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: >>> The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home >>> theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required >>> running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and >> plugging >>> the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in turn >>> resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in potential >>> between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 >>> low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type >>> that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on the >>> left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with >> the >>> coaxial cable. >>> >>> Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't >>> terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade >>> electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite >>> clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through >>> them. >>> >>> My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be >>> immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker >>> side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of >>> folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any >> reason >>> the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. >>> >>> Thoughts? >>> >>> Nick >>> >> ______________________________________________________________ >> Elecraft mailing list >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> Message delivered to [hidden email] >> > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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In reply to this post by Nicklas Johnson
On 5/23/2020 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote:
> The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home > theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required > running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and plugging > the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in turn > resulted in ground-loop hum NOT "ground loop hum" but "buzz," which is triplen harmonics of 60 Hz -- 180 Hz, 360, 540, etc.. (because of a tiny difference in potential Yes, but it's a difference in potential of the green wires. The solution -- run AC for the subwoofer from same outlet that powers the receiver. > between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 > low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type > that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on the > left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with the > coaxial cable. > > Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't > terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade > electronics. Consumer electronics is notorious for this problem. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite > clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through > them. What three connections are we talking about here? Is it speaker cable or unbalanced audio coax? If speaker cable, replace with twisted pair, which can be built from two colors of ordinary THHN house wire. Spool out lengths of the two colors, put one end in a vise (or equivalent), the other end in a drill, and slowly twist a lot. When you've twisted more that you think is needed, lay the drill down overnight to let the cable develop some memory. When you do remove it from the drill, it will untwist some. That's why it's best to twist it a lot. Chokes as Dave recommended should be applied individually to each audio cable and the AC cables for both the receiver and the sub-woofer. > > My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be > immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker > side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of > folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any reason > the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. If you have run AC as I've recommended, the transformers are probably not needed. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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In reply to this post by NK7Z
Thanks, Dave. A very good point about the amp picking up stray RF off the
cable and returning it as audio; I'll be sure to clamp down on both ends. It's definitely not a new problem, and I've used Jim's recommendations to much success in the past. In fact, I referenced it again today because I couldn't remember which mix of Fair-Rite was the right one. Nick On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:58, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > I would put the ferrite material as close to the speaker as possible, > and as close as possible to the amp... > > It is important you also protect the amp from stray RF. If the speaker > cable is picking up RF, and feeding it back into the audio amp output > stage, you can get rectification within that stage in the amp, thus > feeding actual audio, (not RF), back down the speaker cable into the > speaker(s), and then you start hearing things on the speaker(s). > > I had a ham friend living 700 or 800 feet from me-- when he lit off his > KW, I would hear SSB in the speakers, even with the amp off, and > unplugged. This was happening via the method above. > > See Jim's paper on quieting things down: > > http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf > > 73, and thanks, > Dave (NK7Z) > https://www.nk7z.net > ARRL Volunteer Examiner > ARRL Technical Specialist > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > > On 5/23/20 10:19 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > > I've got a set of these on the way, as well as a handful of their next > two > > smaller siblings, just because I like to have a variety in my desk for > > various applications: > > https://www.fair-rite.com/product/round-cable-snap-its-2631181381/ > > > > Given the arrangement at the subwoofer of wall-connection-->isolation > > transformers-->subwoofer, would you put the ferrite right before the > > subwoofer then? > > > > I didn't think about adding one at the amp; though I haven't had problems > > with any common mode noise getting into the amp from the other speakers > in > > the room, I can't be sure about the LFE coaxial cable, so that wouldn't > > hurt. > > > > Nick > > > > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:08, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > >> Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the large > >> rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through each, > >> tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. > >> > >> 73, and thanks, > >> Dave (NK7Z) > >> https://www.nk7z.net > >> ARRL Volunteer Examiner > >> ARRL Technical Specialist > >> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > >> > >> On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > >>> The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my home > >>> theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so required > >>> running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and > >> plugging > >>> the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; this in > turn > >>> resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in potential > >>> between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 > >>> low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is of a type > >>> that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but also on > the > >>> left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires along with > >> the > >>> coaxial cable. > >>> > >>> Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which isn't > >>> terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade > >>> electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial ferrite > >>> clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get through > >>> them. > >>> > >>> My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on will be > >>> immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the speaker > >>> side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the opinions of > >>> folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if there's any > >> reason > >>> the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. > >>> > >>> Thoughts? > >>> > >>> Nick > >>> > >> ______________________________________________________________ > >> Elecraft mailing list > >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] > >> > >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >> Message delivered to [hidden email] > >> > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] > -- *N6OL* Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not worth supporting. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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All of Jim's material is like gold for RFI suppression.
73, and thanks, Dave (NK7Z) https://www.nk7z.net ARRL Volunteer Examiner ARRL Technical Specialist ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources On 5/23/20 2:02 PM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > Thanks, Dave. A very good point about the amp picking up stray RF off > the cable and returning it as audio; I'll be sure to clamp down on both > ends. > > It's definitely not a new problem, and I've used Jim's recommendations > to much success in the past. In fact, I referenced it again today > because I couldn't remember which mix of Fair-Rite was the right one. > > Nick > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:58, Dave Cole <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > I would put the ferrite material as close to the speaker as possible, > and as close as possible to the amp... > > It is important you also protect the amp from stray RF. If the speaker > cable is picking up RF, and feeding it back into the audio amp output > stage, you can get rectification within that stage in the amp, thus > feeding actual audio, (not RF), back down the speaker cable into the > speaker(s), and then you start hearing things on the speaker(s). > > I had a ham friend living 700 or 800 feet from me-- when he lit off his > KW, I would hear SSB in the speakers, even with the amp off, and > unplugged. This was happening via the method above. > > See Jim's paper on quieting things down: > > http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf > > 73, and thanks, > Dave (NK7Z) > https://www.nk7z.net > ARRL Volunteer Examiner > ARRL Technical Specialist > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > > On 5/23/20 10:19 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > > I've got a set of these on the way, as well as a handful of their > next two > > smaller siblings, just because I like to have a variety in my > desk for > > various applications: > > https://www.fair-rite.com/product/round-cable-snap-its-2631181381/ > > > > Given the arrangement at the subwoofer of wall-connection-->isolation > > transformers-->subwoofer, would you put the ferrite right before the > > subwoofer then? > > > > I didn't think about adding one at the amp; though I haven't had > problems > > with any common mode noise getting into the amp from the other > speakers in > > the room, I can't be sure about the LFE coaxial cable, so that > wouldn't > > hurt. > > > > Nick > > > > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:08, Dave Cole <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > > >> Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the large > >> rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through each, > >> tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. > >> > >> 73, and thanks, > >> Dave (NK7Z) > >> https://www.nk7z.net > >> ARRL Volunteer Examiner > >> ARRL Technical Specialist > >> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > >> > >> On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > >>> The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my > home > >>> theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so > required > >>> running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house and > >> plugging > >>> the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; > this in turn > >>> resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in > potential > >>> between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 > >>> low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is > of a type > >>> that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but > also on the > >>> left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires > along with > >> the > >>> coaxial cable. > >>> > >>> Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which > isn't > >>> terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with consumer-grade > >>> electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial > ferrite > >>> clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get > through > >>> them. > >>> > >>> My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on > will be > >>> immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the > speaker > >>> side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the > opinions of > >>> folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if > there's any > >> reason > >>> the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. > >>> > >>> Thoughts? > >>> > >>> Nick > >>> > >> ______________________________________________________________ > >> Elecraft mailing list > >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]> > >> > >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > >> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > >> > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > > > -- > *N6OL* > Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make > it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is > not worth supporting. Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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I certainly agree. And of course there's no "one size fits all" for RFI
problems. I think it's somewhat likely I have multiple problems going on here too; I noticed, for example, that even when it's completely disconnected from all its audio inputs, I can still hear a little racket on the sub; it may need a hefty ferrite on the power cord, or I suppose it's always possible it's picking up 20m from the speaker coil, then rectifying that. I won't know until I get some appropriate ferrites delivered to test out (mid-week). Sadly, it seems like most consumer-grade audio equipment is optimized more for cost than for design quality and RFI suppression, even equipment that's supposed to be "high-end." And then sometimes you can buy a piece of cheap gear and it rejects RF better than high-end stuff. Kind of a crap shoot. I appreciate all the suggestions and pointers. In the absolute worst case, I can always play on another band when my better half wants to watch a movie or play a game, too. Nick On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 16:39, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > All of Jim's material is like gold for RFI suppression. > > 73, and thanks, > Dave (NK7Z) > https://www.nk7z.net > ARRL Volunteer Examiner > ARRL Technical Specialist > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > > On 5/23/20 2:02 PM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > > Thanks, Dave. A very good point about the amp picking up stray RF off > > the cable and returning it as audio; I'll be sure to clamp down on both > > ends. > > > > It's definitely not a new problem, and I've used Jim's recommendations > > to much success in the past. In fact, I referenced it again today > > because I couldn't remember which mix of Fair-Rite was the right one. > > > > Nick > > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:58, Dave Cole <[hidden email] > > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > > > I would put the ferrite material as close to the speaker as possible, > > and as close as possible to the amp... > > > > It is important you also protect the amp from stray RF. If the > speaker > > cable is picking up RF, and feeding it back into the audio amp output > > stage, you can get rectification within that stage in the amp, thus > > feeding actual audio, (not RF), back down the speaker cable into the > > speaker(s), and then you start hearing things on the speaker(s). > > > > I had a ham friend living 700 or 800 feet from me-- when he lit off > his > > KW, I would hear SSB in the speakers, even with the amp off, and > > unplugged. This was happening via the method above. > > > > See Jim's paper on quieting things down: > > > > http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf > > > > 73, and thanks, > > Dave (NK7Z) > > https://www.nk7z.net > > ARRL Volunteer Examiner > > ARRL Technical Specialist > > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > > > > On 5/23/20 10:19 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > > > I've got a set of these on the way, as well as a handful of their > > next two > > > smaller siblings, just because I like to have a variety in my > > desk for > > > various applications: > > > > https://www.fair-rite.com/product/round-cable-snap-its-2631181381/ > > > > > > Given the arrangement at the subwoofer of > wall-connection-->isolation > > > transformers-->subwoofer, would you put the ferrite right before > the > > > subwoofer then? > > > > > > I didn't think about adding one at the amp; though I haven't had > > problems > > > with any common mode noise getting into the amp from the other > > speakers in > > > the room, I can't be sure about the LFE coaxial cable, so that > > wouldn't > > > hurt. > > > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:08, Dave Cole <[hidden email] > > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > > > > >> Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the large > > >> rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through > each, > > >> tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. > > >> > > >> 73, and thanks, > > >> Dave (NK7Z) > > >> https://www.nk7z.net > > >> ARRL Volunteer Examiner > > >> ARRL Technical Specialist > > >> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources > > >> > > >> On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: > > >>> The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my > > home > > >>> theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so > > required > > >>> running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house > and > > >> plugging > > >>> the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; > > this in turn > > >>> resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in > > potential > > >>> between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of 1:1 > > >>> low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is > > of a type > > >>> that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but > > also on the > > >>> left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires > > along with > > >> the > > >>> coaxial cable. > > >>> > > >>> Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which > > isn't > > >>> terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with > consumer-grade > > >>> electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial > > ferrite > > >>> clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get > > through > > >>> them. > > >>> > > >>> My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on > > will be > > >>> immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the > > speaker > > >>> side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the > > opinions of > > >>> folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if > > there's any > > >> reason > > >>> the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. > > >>> > > >>> Thoughts? > > >>> > > >>> Nick > > >>> > > >> ______________________________________________________________ > > >> Elecraft mailing list > > >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > <mailto:[hidden email]> > > >> > > >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > >> Please help support this email list: > http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > >> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > >> > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > > Elecraft mailing list > > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto: > [hidden email]> > > > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > > > > > > > > -- > > *N6OL* > > Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make > > it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is > > not worth supporting. > -- *N6OL* Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not worth supporting. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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On 5/23/2020 5:01 PM, Nicklas Johnson wrote:
> Sadly, it seems like most consumer-grade audio equipment is optimized more > for cost than for design quality and RFI suppression, even equipment that's > supposed to be "high-end." And then sometimes you can buy a piece of cheap > gear and it rejects RF better than high-end stuff. Kind of a crap shoot. For more than 30 years, virtually ALL electronics has been built with Pin One Problems. This has as much to do with stupid as it does with cheap. When Neil Muncy, ex-W3WJE, now SK, first exposed it in 1994, virtually all Pro equipment had Pin One Problems. Every ham rig I studied the last time I was in Dayton and last year in Visalia had Pin One Problems, including Elecraft. THAT'S the major reason we need ferrite chokes on all the "receiving antennas." It's also a major mechanism coupling for RF noise OUT of the box. The Pin One Problem occurs with the AC "Green Wire" (Equipment Ground) and with antenna jacks in home entertainment systems AND in CATV and DSL systems. They all put noise on the coax shield and the Green Wire. 73, Jim K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
Re: ferrites for subwoofer: before or after isolation transformers?
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In reply to this post by Nicklas Johnson
Happy to report that the subwoofer problem got about 95% better with the
placement of ferrites immediately before the subwoofer on the power cord, the LFE channel and the speaker channels. It still picks up just a tiny bit of 20m racket even with nothing connected to it, which I suspect could be a consequence of the speaker coil picking up the signal and getting rectified in the subwoofer's amplifier. I think it would be difficult to mitigate without more effort than the very small amount of sound is worth. (I'd probably have to disassemble the subwoofer and add a new cable between the amplifier and the speaker that took a bunch of turns through a ferrite ring... something I'm not willing to do yet.) (The question about the isolation transformers came up because the subwoofer must necessarily plug into a different outlet than the receiver due to its placement, and the answer is to add the ferrite as close to the amplifier as possible, on both ends, so necessarily after the isolation transformers, right up against the subwoofer is the place to go.) Adding ferrite to all the speaker wires, the LFE channel, and the power cord at the receiver as Dave (NK7Z) suggested got rid of the small amount of noise that was being picked up on other channels, so I'd call that piece a total success. Because of the way our AV cabinet is arranged, I needed the ferrites to be a little bit closer to the wall than to the receiver, so I gave the wire leading to the receiver several twists on its way for those last few feet. In all cases I was able to get at least 7 turns through the clamps I bought... they were pretty good hefty sizes. Incidentally, Mouser has very good prices and reasonably priced shipping on Fair-Ride material 31 clamp-ons, and it pays to buy in bulk-- 10 costs the same as 7. They also vacuum-seal and bubble-wrap the hell out of it so it arrives intact. Leaving this message so it's searchable by the next person. As always, I appreciate all the help and suggestions from everyone. Nick On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 17:01, Nicklas Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote: > I certainly agree. And of course there's no "one size fits all" for RFI > problems. I think it's somewhat likely I have multiple problems going on > here too; I noticed, for example, that even when it's completely > disconnected from all its audio inputs, I can still hear a little racket on > the sub; it may need a hefty ferrite on the power cord, or I suppose it's > always possible it's picking up 20m from the speaker coil, then rectifying > that. I won't know until I get some appropriate ferrites delivered to test > out (mid-week). > > Sadly, it seems like most consumer-grade audio equipment is optimized more > for cost than for design quality and RFI suppression, even equipment that's > supposed to be "high-end." And then sometimes you can buy a piece of cheap > gear and it rejects RF better than high-end stuff. Kind of a crap shoot. > > I appreciate all the suggestions and pointers. In the absolute worst > case, I can always play on another band when my better half wants to watch > a movie or play a game, too. > > Nick > > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 16:39, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> All of Jim's material is like gold for RFI suppression. >> >> 73, and thanks, >> Dave (NK7Z) >> https://www.nk7z.net >> ARRL Volunteer Examiner >> ARRL Technical Specialist >> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources >> >> On 5/23/20 2:02 PM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: >> > Thanks, Dave. A very good point about the amp picking up stray RF off >> > the cable and returning it as audio; I'll be sure to clamp down on both >> > ends. >> > >> > It's definitely not a new problem, and I've used Jim's recommendations >> > to much success in the past. In fact, I referenced it again today >> > because I couldn't remember which mix of Fair-Rite was the right one. >> > >> > Nick >> > >> > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:58, Dave Cole <[hidden email] >> > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> > >> > I would put the ferrite material as close to the speaker as >> possible, >> > and as close as possible to the amp... >> > >> > It is important you also protect the amp from stray RF. If the >> speaker >> > cable is picking up RF, and feeding it back into the audio amp >> output >> > stage, you can get rectification within that stage in the amp, thus >> > feeding actual audio, (not RF), back down the speaker cable into the >> > speaker(s), and then you start hearing things on the speaker(s). >> > >> > I had a ham friend living 700 or 800 feet from me-- when he lit off >> his >> > KW, I would hear SSB in the speakers, even with the amp off, and >> > unplugged. This was happening via the method above. >> > >> > See Jim's paper on quieting things down: >> > >> > http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/RFI-Ham.pdf >> > >> > 73, and thanks, >> > Dave (NK7Z) >> > https://www.nk7z.net >> > ARRL Volunteer Examiner >> > ARRL Technical Specialist >> > ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources >> > >> > On 5/23/20 10:19 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: >> > > I've got a set of these on the way, as well as a handful of their >> > next two >> > > smaller siblings, just because I like to have a variety in my >> > desk for >> > > various applications: >> > > >> https://www.fair-rite.com/product/round-cable-snap-its-2631181381/ >> > > >> > > Given the arrangement at the subwoofer of >> wall-connection-->isolation >> > > transformers-->subwoofer, would you put the ferrite right before >> the >> > > subwoofer then? >> > > >> > > I didn't think about adding one at the amp; though I haven't had >> > problems >> > > with any common mode noise getting into the amp from the other >> > speakers in >> > > the room, I can't be sure about the LFE coaxial cable, so that >> > wouldn't >> > > hurt. >> > > >> > > Nick >> > > >> > > >> > > On Sat, 23 May 2020 at 10:08, Dave Cole <[hidden email] >> > <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Grab some FT-240/31 ferrites from Fair-Rite, (these are the >> large >> > >> rings), and put seven or eight turns of speaker cable through >> each, >> > >> tight wound. Add one at the speaker, and one at the amp. >> > >> >> > >> 73, and thanks, >> > >> Dave (NK7Z) >> > >> https://www.nk7z.net >> > >> ARRL Volunteer Examiner >> > >> ARRL Technical Specialist >> > >> ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources >> > >> >> > >> On 5/23/20 9:37 AM, Nicklas Johnson wrote: >> > >>> The backstory as briefly as I can make it: I wanted to place my >> > home >> > >>> theater subwoofer in the corner of our living room; doing so >> > required >> > >>> running two speaker wires and a coaxial cable under the house >> and >> > >> plugging >> > >>> the subwoofer into a different outlet than the AV receiver; >> > this in turn >> > >>> resulted in ground-loop hum (because of a tiny difference in >> > potential >> > >>> between the two outlets) which I worked around with a set of >> 1:1 >> > >>> low-frequency audio isolation transformers. The subwoofer is >> > of a type >> > >>> that produces a signal based not only on the LFE channel, but >> > also on the >> > >>> left and right speaker channels, thus the two speaker wires >> > along with >> > >> the >> > >>> coaxial cable. >> > >>> >> > >>> Now the subwoofer is picking up common mode noise on 20m, which >> > isn't >> > >>> terribly surprising, as this happens a good bit with >> consumer-grade >> > >>> electronics. I'm hoping to mitigate this with some substantial >> > ferrite >> > >>> clamps for all three connections and as many turns as I can get >> > through >> > >>> them. >> > >>> >> > >>> My hunch is that the best place in the path to clamp them on >> > will be >> > >>> immediately before the connection to the speaker itself, on the >> > speaker >> > >>> side of the isolation transformer, but I wanted to get the >> > opinions of >> > >>> folks who have solved this problem in the past to see if >> > there's any >> > >> reason >> > >>> the ferrites should come before the isolation transformers. >> > >>> >> > >>> Thoughts? >> > >>> >> > >>> Nick >> > >>> >> > >> ______________________________________________________________ >> > >> Elecraft mailing list >> > >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> > >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> > >> Post: mailto:[hidden email] >> > <mailto:[hidden email]> >> > >> >> > >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> > >> Please help support this email list: >> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > >> Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > ______________________________________________________________ >> > Elecraft mailing list >> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft >> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm >> > Post: mailto:[hidden email] <mailto: >> [hidden email]> >> > >> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net >> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html >> > Message delivered to [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > *N6OL* >> > Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't >> make >> > it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is >> > not worth supporting. >> > > > -- > *N6OL* > Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make > it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not > worth supporting. > -- *N6OL* Saying something doesn't make it true. Belief in something doesn't make it real. And if you have to lie to support a position, that position is not worth supporting. ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to [hidden email] |
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