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how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

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lstavenhagen

how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

Hi all,

I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in a radio a lot better.

So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a K2 be to build over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a novice builder that aren't in a K1?

I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can think of to ask the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and got good tools (I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).

Thanks,
LS
W5QD

Johnny Siu

回覆: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

much harder but manageable. Follow the manual step by step and have patience. Don't jump step. Don't go to next section until you are all right. Then, you will be there for your K2. 73 Johnny vr2xmc
Message sent by Nokia E71

lstavenhagen wrote:

> Hi all,
> I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time
> kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like
> it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's
> the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in
> a radio a lot better.
> So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a K2 be to build
> over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a novice builder that
> aren't in a K1?
> I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can think of to ask
> the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and got good tools
> (I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).
> Thanks,
> LS
> W5QD
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/how-much-harder-to-build-K2-vs-K1-tp4234815p4234815.html
> Sent from the [K2] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Craig Smith

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

I think you will find some sound advice on this forum, LS. You raise a good
question.

I think the key is that you have done no significant kit building to date.
There is nothing fundamentally more difficult about building a K2 vs. a K1.
Both involve soldering lots of discrete components onto a PCB and then
following the instructions for test and alignment using relatively simple
test equipment. The K2 process takes longer and can be more time consuming,
depending upon what options you select. Then again, even the K1 has what
seems to be a never-ending pile of capacitors to install. I've successfully
done both kits and have been pleased with the results.

Given where you are at with kit building, I'm going to suggest a third
alternative. Start out by building some of the small inexpensive test
equipment kits that Elecraft offers, such as the dummy load, the 3 band
signal generator, a balun, the step attenuator, etc. All of these will be
helpful no matter which transceiver you ultimately decide to build. More
importantly, they will get you comfortable with following the Elecraft
instructions, soldering components, and testing a final product. After you
have two or three of these kits under our belt, then start thinking about a
transceiver.

Along with your soldering iron, I would recommend that you invest up-front
in an anti-static mat and accessories, good screwdrivers and pliers, and a
dependable DVM intended for solid state equipment.

Whatever direction you decide on, don't be shy about asking for advice here.

73
... Craig AC0DS

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Ken Alexander-2

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

Hi There,

I don't know if the degree of difficulty is that much greater in a K2 compared to a K1; there's just a lot more of it to do. In terms of the effort required to complete a kit, building a K2 might be equivalent to building three or four K1s and will take you that much longer.

There are so many outstanding resources on this reflector it would be almost impossible to fail if you are methodical and patient. That said, I'd go straight for the K2. You're going to end up there eventually! ;-)

73,

Ken Alexander
VE3HLS

--- On Thu, 12/31/09, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: lstavenhagen <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] [K2] how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, December 31, 2009, 1:27 AM
>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd
> be a first-time
> kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and
> the K2 looks like
> it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1
> sounds like it's
> the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2
> matches what I need in
> a radio a lot better.
>
> So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a
> K2 be to build
> over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a
> novice builder that
> aren't in a K1?
>
> I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can
> think of to ask
> the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and
> got good tools
> (I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).
>
> Thanks,
> LS
> W5QD
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/how-much-harder-to-build-K2-vs-K1-tp4234815p4234815.html
> Sent from the [K2] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

LS,

All kits go together the same way, 1 part at a time.
The K2 has more parts, but there are interim checks that tell you that
"all is OK".

Any kit has two requirements - 1) that you can do a good job of
soldering - see the soldering tutorial on the Elecraft website if you
have any questions about your ability. 2) that you can follow written
instructions. Do not skip, work from the beginning of the manual to the
end.

Those same cautions apply to the K1 or the K2 or to any kit. If your
desire is for the K2, then go for it. Resist the temptation to work
when you are tired, inventory the components before building a section,
and make sure the parts do not 'jump' into the wrong holes, and the
result will be a great working radio.

73,
Don W3FPR

lstavenhagen wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time
> kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like
> it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's
> the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in
> a radio a lot better.
>
> So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a K2 be to build
> over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a novice builder that
> aren't in a K1?
>
> I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can think of to ask
> the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and got good tools
> (I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).
>
> Thanks,
> LS
> W5QD
>
>

RobertG

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

LS...

As others have said, it's one piece at a time, one solder joint at a
time. From that perspective, the K1 and K2 are identical. Some will say
that the K1 is "easier," but I think of it more as a "simpler radio,"
not a simpler construction project. Some fine joy in how much can be
accomplished by so little, and the K1 is a great example of that idea.
If you are really looking for something of the K2's functionality, then
build it.

I built some Heathkits back in the 50's, but they were nothing like the
modern [more or less] construction found in the K2, So, I was pretty
much starting from scratch. I inventoried all the part, laying them out
with Scotch Tape on heavy paper stock with everything marked. I found a
great way to wind toroids. I bought a very good desk assembly vice with
two type of clamps. I bought some very good - and inexpensive -
magnifying goggles. All these incidentals contributed to a more or less
error free assembly. I made some mistakes, but they were primarily goofy
mistakes, not because there was anything "hard" going on.

If you would like, I can send you some pictures of the parts pages, the
toroid winding method, and the desk assembly area. This would give you
an idea of the prep phase. It took me about a month working a few hours
a night, about every other night. It was great fun, one of the best
experiences I've ever had in ham radio. I'd do it again in a flash.

The K2 is the main transceiver here. I've added all the modules
including the 100w amp. They all work perfectly. As mentioned elsewhere,
the reflector is great for support at all levels. A real community. Go
for it!

...robert

lstavenhagen wrote:

--
Robert G. Strickland, PhD, ABPH - KE2WY
[hidden email]
Syracuse, New York, USA
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Daniel-28

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

Back in late 2000, the K2 was my first kit ever! Since then, I've built an SST, DSW, a couple DSWII's, SMK-1, and a couple other little kits. I Didn't think the K2 was too hard to build. The instructions were very clear and the step by step was easy to follow. I took my time and made sure everything was installed correctly and doing the testing alignment steps along the way. I spent an hour or two daily (and slowly) and took me about 30 days to complete. It worked great! I had the K2, Internal tuner, NB, Internal Battery, 160, and the SSB. I think that was everything available at the time and didn't add more too it. I sold it a few years ago but recently got the itch to build again and recently got the K1. Also enjoyable to build.

If you take your time, the Elecraft kits will work out. Just look at what your budget is, and want you want out of your radio and purchase accordingly.

Good luck with your build and enjoy your new rig.

Dan
W4ABN

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all,

I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in a radio a lot better.

So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a K2 be to build over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a novice builder that aren't in a K1?

I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can think of to ask the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and got good tools (I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).

Thanks,
LS
W5QD

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srife

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

Hi LS. I have never built a K1, but I would guess that a K2 is 2 or
3 times the complexity of a K1. But don't let that scare you. The
instructions for assembly are superb and the Elecraft support is as well.
The K2 was my first major project and I just followed the assembly manual to
the "T" and everything worked as specified. You will have some questions
along the way, but Don Wilhelm and a host of others here on the reflector
will help you out.

Ordering the torroids pre-wound will will speed up the proces quite
a bit and is not all that expensive.

Stan Rife
W5EWA

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lstavenhagen
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:27 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [K2] how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

Hi all,

I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time
kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like
it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's
the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in
a radio a lot better.

So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a K2 be to build
over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a novice builder that
aren't in a K1?

I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can think of to ask
the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and got good tools
(I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).

Thanks,
LS
W5QD
--
View this message in context:
http://n2.nabble.com/how-much-harder-to-build-K2-vs-K1-tp4234815p4234815.htm
l
Sent from the [K2] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Bill K9YEQ

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1? Start with something simple

In reply to this post by Craig Smith

This is great advice. I would build at least one item, it could either be
the dummy load or the generator. They have the most use to me. If you are
comfortable with those, go for the K2. Just more parts and instructions.
Doable.

73,

Bill
K9YEQ
K2; KX1; K3; mini mods; W2; THP HL-2.5Kfx
ATS-3B

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Craig D. Smith
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:56 PM
To: 'lstavenhagen'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K2] how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

I think you will find some sound advice on this forum, LS. You raise a good
question.

I think the key is that you have done no significant kit building to date.
There is nothing fundamentally more difficult about building a K2 vs. a K1.
Both involve soldering lots of discrete components onto a PCB and then
following the instructions for test and alignment using relatively simple
test equipment. The K2 process takes longer and can be more time consuming,
depending upon what options you select. Then again, even the K1 has what
seems to be a never-ending pile of capacitors to install. I've successfully
done both kits and have been pleased with the results.

Given where you are at with kit building, I'm going to suggest a third
alternative. Start out by building some of the small inexpensive test
equipment kits that Elecraft offers, such as the dummy load, the 3 band
signal generator, a balun, the step attenuator, etc. All of these will be
helpful no matter which transceiver you ultimately decide to build. More
importantly, they will get you comfortable with following the Elecraft
instructions, soldering components, and testing a final product. After you
have two or three of these kits under our belt, then start thinking about a
transceiver.

Along with your soldering iron, I would recommend that you invest up-front
in an anti-static mat and accessories, good screwdrivers and pliers, and a
dependable DVM intended for solid state equipment.

Whatever direction you decide on, don't be shy about asking for advice here.

73
... Craig AC0DS

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lstavenhagen

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

Hi everyone,

Thanks very much for all the feedback, very much appreciated. I decided to go with the K1 with 2 band module as a first project. The K2 looks a little more ambitious than my current skill set (gotta be honest about that ;)) so decided it'd be better to get my feet wet on a project a little narrower in scope.
Also the budget won't get dented as hard as the K2 would have and I can still save up for the K2 as a next project.

But it still looks like I'm going to have an equal amount of fun and will learn a whole bunch no matter what.

So guess I'll be posting more on the K1 subforum once I get my kit.

Thanks all es 73,

LS
W5QD

Curt

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

LS,

I've built both the K1 and K2, but only after having constructed numerous simpler kits. The K2 doesn't require any additional skills, there is just about 4 times as much to build as the K1. In turn, the K1 is about 4 times as much to construct as a simple single-band QRP rig. I completed the K2 one section at a time over about a two month period. Would encourage you to build something easy like the dummy load, or even a cheap single-band QRP transceiver before tackling the K1 or K2. Either one of these is a lot of money invested.

Am curious about the K2 "meeting needs" better than the K1. If you are wanting SSB, then besides the K2 you'll need to build the sideband board as well. The K1-4 is a wonderful QRP CW rig, easy for park bench portable or from the main QTH. OTOH, wondering if a basic K3 wouldn't provide the same capabilities as a fully loaded K2 with less building and little more cost?

73, Curt KB5JO
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lstavenhagen

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

Hi Curt,

Heh, you're actually thinking kind of what I was thinking ;). I figured since my main goal is really the building and learning experience, followed by a small, simple CW-only QRP rig, the K1 actually comes out looking like a better fit than I thought. Especially after going through the build manuals for both.

Plus, the smaller dent made in my budget means it'll take less time to save up for a K3 ;).

But it looks like the K1 will be plenty of fun for a good price so I went with it...

LS
W5QD

oe9fwv

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

hi,

I can only speak for the K2 which I built. The key point is your soldering
skills. Next point is patience and following the instructions.
If you want to see my building pathway you can find it here:

http://www.qsl.net/oe9fwv/k2.html

from the dates you can see how long it took me to finish the task.

One idea someone already wrote on the list is building a small kit like
the XG2 or something like this and see if your soldering skills are
already sufficient or need improvement....

And if you plan to start: I sugest to look at the rework eliminator kit. I
missed this point unfortunately.
http://www.unpcbs.com/

73! and have fun!
de Werner OE9FWV

lstavenhagen schrieb am 30 Dec 2009 um 17:27:

>
> Hi all,
>
> I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time
> kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like
> it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's
> the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in
> a radio a lot better.
>
> So I guess my general question is, how much harder would a K2 be to build
> over a K1? I.e. what are the "gotchas" with the K2 for a novice builder
> that aren't in a K1?
>
> I know this is kind of vague, but that's the only way I can think of to ask
> the question. I think I'd still do OK if I took my time and got good tools
> (I just ordered the recommended weller soldering station).
>
> Thanks,
> LS
> W5QD

--
Don't you hate those silly [tags]
silly people put on subject line?

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AD6XY

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

I see you have decided on the K1, that is a good choice. The Elecraft kits are a good choice as the manuals are so well written.

You say you have no experience of building a kit, so before you build it, while awaiting delivery perhaps, I think you should practice on something that does not really matter. Any simple Velemann kit or something from Radioshack would be a good idea. Learn how to make mistakes on that and then learn how to fix them without damaging the PCB. Once you can make good joints and solder and desolder parts, and can use the tools properly you will be able to move on to the K1 with confidence.

Mike

lstavenhagen wrote

Hi all,

I'm considering building a K2, but here's my situation. I'd be a first-time kit builder, I've never had the opportunity to build and the K2 looks like it'd be great fun and a great learning experience. The K1 sounds like it's the better choice for a first-time build, but the K2 matches what I need in a radio a lot better.

lstavenhagen

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

Hi everyone,

Been a couple weeks here since I started this thread, but I've actually changed my mind and ended up going with the K2. I thought it over a bit more and decided that the K2 base unit has everything I wanted in it so it was best to just get it from the start. Also since I'm in no hurry a longer build time isn't of much concern. I plan to just take my time and use it as a learning experience (I have my 706MIIG to use on the air in the meanwhile too).

I'm going to start practicing my soldering skills here on some junk boards I have too.

The only option I can think of that I might add later is the KPA100 100W upgrade. That's a ways down the road and only after I get the main rig working ;).

Looking forward to it!

73,
LS
W5QD

Niel Skousen-2

Tx Alignment error: State 139

I updated my K3 (sn1396) firmware over the weekend.
I performed an RX gain cal with the K3Utility support, and all went
well.
Next I attempted the TX calibration, and error'ed with a 'STATE 139'
failure message.

What am I missing ??

Niel
WA7SSA
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David Fleming-2

Re: Tx Alignment error: State 139

Hi Niel,

Have you tried running it again? If it continues to fail, could you copy and paste the contents of the output field and send it to me in an email? That would help diagnose the problem.

tnx,

David, W4SMT

--- On Mon, 1/18/10, Niel Skousen <[hidden email]> wrote:

I updated my K3 (sn1396) firmware over the weekend.
I performed an RX gain cal with the K3Utility support, and all went
well.
Next I attempted the TX calibration, and error'ed with a 'STATE 139'
failure message.

What am I missing ??

Niel
WA7SSA
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Guy, K2AV

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

K2 is quite significantly more work than a K1. But it is the last time
you will build a full function transceiver from discrete components
ala Heathkit. The time you spend with it will linger with you and put
you in a new relationship with radio equipment. Highly recommended.

73, Guy.

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:16 PM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Been a couple weeks here since I started this thread, but I've actually
> changed my mind and ended up going with the K2. I thought it over a bit more
> and decided that the K2 base unit has everything I wanted in it so it was
> best to just get it from the start. Also since I'm in no hurry a longer
> build time isn't of much concern. I plan to just take my time and use it as
> a learning experience (I have my 706MIIG to use on the air in the meanwhile
> too).
>
> I'm going to start practicing my soldering skills here on some junk boards I
> have too.
>
> The only option I can think of that I might add later is the KPA100 100W
> upgrade. That's a ways down the road and only after I get the main rig
> working ;).
>
> Looking forward to it!
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/how-much-harder-to-build-K2-vs-K1-tp4234815p4416236.html
> Sent from the [K2] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill K9YEQ

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

And, an everlasting love of the K2. I won't part with the last of the three
I owned. I am down to the last one.

73,

Bill
K9YEQ
K2 & KX1 (Field tester); K3; W2; mini mods

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Guy Olinger K2AV
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2010 4:04 PM
To: lstavenhagen
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [K2] how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

K2 is quite significantly more work than a K1. But it is the last time
you will build a full function transceiver from discrete components
ala Heathkit. The time you spend with it will linger with you and put
you in a new relationship with radio equipment. Highly recommended.

73, Guy.

On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 4:16 PM, lstavenhagen <[hidden email]>
wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Been a couple weeks here since I started this thread, but I've actually
> changed my mind and ended up going with the K2. I thought it over a bit
more
> and decided that the K2 base unit has everything I wanted in it so it was
> best to just get it from the start. Also since I'm in no hurry a longer
> build time isn't of much concern. I plan to just take my time and use it
as
> a learning experience (I have my 706MIIG to use on the air in the
meanwhile
> too).
>
> I'm going to start practicing my soldering skills here on some junk boards
I

> have too.
>
> The only option I can think of that I might add later is the KPA100 100W
> upgrade. That's a ways down the road and only after I get the main rig
> working ;).
>
> Looking forward to it!
>
> 73,
> LS
> W5QD
> --
> View this message in context:

http://n2.nabble.com/how-much-harder-to-build-K2-vs-K1-tp4234815p4416236.htm
l

> Sent from the [K2] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: how much harder to build: K2 vs K1?

In reply to this post by lstavenhagen

LS,

There is a Soldering Tutorial on the Elecraft website that may prove to
be helpful - it is either on the Builder's Resource page or the
Application Notes page if I recall correctly. Start at Builder's
Resource and hunt around a bit.

Pay particular attention to the heat of the soldering iron - too cold a
soldering temperature will get you into trouble. Use 700 deg F to 750
deg F. to keep soldering times down to between 2 and 3 seconds - you
will not damage components nor lift PC traces at those temperatures as
long as the iron dwell times are short. The solder should flow out to
an almost invisible edge on both the solder pad and the component lead.
Do not use more solder than is necessary - enough to fill the
thru-plated hole is sufficient, but I like to see a very small fillet.
If your solder looks more like a ball, either you have applied too much
or you are not using enough heat (or both).

73,
Don W3FPR

lstavenhagen wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> Been a couple weeks here since I started this thread, but I've actually
> changed my mind and ended up going with the K2. I thought it over a bit more
> and decided that the K2 base unit has everything I wanted in it so it was
> best to just get it from the start. Also since I'm in no hurry a longer
> build time isn't of much concern. I plan to just take my time and use it as
> a learning experience (I have my 706MIIG to use on the air in the meanwhile
> too).
>
> I'm going to start practicing my soldering skills here on some junk boards I
> have too.
>
>
>