k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
 
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Hi
Just noticed this when playing around with the K3's monitor. With the Gate off EQ flat MH2 hand MIC TX test mode Band 7mhz While whistling there is a odd artifact. If I whistle I get a sound that sounds like a oscillator pulling in a receiver. I dont get any odd sounds with normal voice testing .With a continuous whistle I get this artifact that is a mirror of the whistle, however it seems to shift frequency or pull the louder you whistle.It might be a IMD product? I have never noticed this before in the K3's monitor. I will also check the clubs K3's and report back. Anyone else get this? John ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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John
Yes, I get this artefact. It's been evident ever since I got my K3. You will notice that it is made worse by excessive mic gain or compression. I hope it is an artifact in the monitor circuit, and not on the transmitted signal ! Regards John G4ZTR -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of juergen Sent: 03 May 2010 12:27 To: [hidden email] Subject: [Elecraft] k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta? Hi Just noticed this when playing around with the K3's monitor. With the Gate off EQ flat MH2 hand MIC TX test mode Band 7mhz While whistling there is a odd artifact. If I whistle I get a sound that sounds like a oscillator pulling in a receiver. I dont get any odd sounds with normal voice testing .With a continuous whistle I get this artifact that is a mirror of the whistle, however it seems to shift frequency or pull the louder you whistle.It might be a IMD product? I have never noticed this before in the K3's monitor. I will also check the clubs K3's and report back. Anyone else get this? John ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5081 (20100503) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5081 (20100503) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by juergen piezo
I have noticed this on voice also. I thought at first it was my imagination
but it becomes apparent if I speak loudly. Backing the compression and mic gain way off helped somewhat but it's still there. Todd, WA7U -------------------------------------------------- From: "juergen" <[hidden email]> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 5:26 AM To: <[hidden email]> Subject: [Elecraft] k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta? > Hi > > Just noticed this when playing around with the K3's monitor. > > With the Gate off > EQ flat > MH2 hand MIC > TX test mode > Band 7mhz > > While whistling there is a odd artifact. If I whistle I get a sound that > sounds like a oscillator pulling in a receiver. I dont get any odd sounds > with normal voice testing > > .With a continuous whistle I get this artifact that is a mirror of the > whistle, however it seems to shift frequency or pull the louder you > whistle.It might be a IMD product? I have never noticed this before in > the K3's monitor. I will also check the clubs K3's and report back. > > Anyone else get this? > > John > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by John Lemay
Mine is also on the transmitted signal.
Todd, WA7U -------------------------------------------------- From: "John Lemay" <[hidden email]> Sent: Monday, May 03, 2010 5:55 AM To: "'juergen'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta? > John > > Yes, I get this artefact. It's been evident ever since I got my K3. You > will > notice that it is made worse by excessive mic gain or compression. > > I hope it is an artifact in the monitor circuit, and not on the > transmitted > signal ! > > Regards > > John G4ZTR > > -----Original Message----- > From: [hidden email] > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of juergen > Sent: 03 May 2010 12:27 > To: [hidden email] > Subject: [Elecraft] k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta? > > Hi > > Just noticed this when playing around with the K3's monitor. > > With the Gate off > EQ flat > MH2 hand MIC > TX test mode > Band 7mhz > > While whistling there is a odd artifact. If I whistle I get a sound that > sounds like a oscillator pulling in a receiver. I dont get any odd sounds > with normal voice testing > > .With a continuous whistle I get this artifact that is a mirror of the > whistle, however it seems to shift frequency or pull the louder you > whistle.It might be a IMD product? I have never noticed this before in > the > K3's monitor. I will also check the clubs K3's and report back. > > Anyone else get this? > > John > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 5081 (20100503) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus > signature > database 5081 (20100503) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com > > > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by juergen piezo
Are you using headphones or the internal speaker? If the latter, physical microphonic modulation of the VCO can cause spur artifacts. I've never experienced this because I never use the speaker, but I've noticed it on CW signals from other K3s. The audible PITCH tone can modulate the VCO causing spurs at +/- PITCH setting. I suppose the same could happen in SSB if MONITOR volume were high enough. Elecraft has a stiffener/damper fix for the VCO board if this is the problem you're having. 73, Bill |
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In reply to this post by T Gahagan
Has this been fixed on new K3's now shipping from Elecraft?
Art WB8ENE |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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Art,
Do you happen to know when this was fixed?? I hate to bother support if you do. Mine shipped in March, 2010. 73, Don, WB5HAK ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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In reply to this post by juergen piezo
K3 is not an analog radio. Mic goes to a fixed gain op amp, an AF
multiplexer switch, and then to analog-digital conversion and number soup. All sanity and/or weirdness is digital sanity and/or digital weirdness. Whistling is usually 20-30 db louder than your spoken voice. That's why people whistle when a shout doesn't make it. Takes a practiced whistler to whistle softly. More like trying to play a woodwind intrument. I'm sure some couldn't whistle soft to save their lives. My mother couldn't, but she didn't need to. In my growing up neighborhood, every mom had a distinctive whistle to round up their kids. I could hear that whistle over the rumble of the big planes over on the runways at Kirtland AFB, and she would never take "I didn't hear it" as an excuse. But I digress... You're expecting hi-fi whistling into a mic? Not many voice mikes will tolerate whistling and are already into distortion in the element at that point. Why should a designer/manufacturer of a communication rig spend any time/money to make sure a whistle is hi-fi? If you CAN whistle softly, try whistling at a level that only shows ALC of 3 or 4 when the MIC/CMP is set up for your voice. Turn off MON unless you are using headphones. Listening to MON on a speaker while using a microphone seems to be third grade bad operating practice and begs for SOME kind of distortion from looping audio. Since this is a digital radio, the artifacts from looping audio and/or smash-mouth overload may not be the familiar analog symptoms. I'm really not sure you're reporting a "trouble". But at least we haven't had anyone reporting that the K3 case is weak because it got bent after being dropped out of an airplane. 73, Guy On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 7:26 AM, juergen <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi > > Just noticed this when playing around with the K3's monitor. > > With the Gate off > EQ flat > MH2 hand MIC > TX test mode > Band 7mhz > > While whistling there is a odd artifact. If I whistle I get a sound that sounds like a oscillator pulling in a receiver. I dont get any odd sounds with normal voice testing > > .With a continuous whistle I get this artifact that is a mirror of the whistle, however it seems to shift frequency or pull the louder you whistle.It might be a IMD product? I have never noticed this before in the K3's monitor. I will also check the clubs K3's and report back. > > Anyone else get this? > > John > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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It has been explained by Lyle some time ago.
There are some aliasing products when using the processor, both in the monitor as well as the TX signal. To keep latency low this is a compromise. These artifacts are more pronounced in the monitor signal (lower resolution) but are also there in the TX signal, be it contained within the TX passband. 73' Paul PD0PSB |
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In reply to this post by Don Cunningham
Don,
I saw the following on an earlier post. "Are you using headphones or the internal speaker? If the latter, physical microphonic modulation of the VCO can cause spur artifacts. I've never experienced this because I never use the speaker, but I've noticed it on CW signals from other K3s. The audible PITCH tone can modulate the VCO causing spurs at +/- PITCH setting. I suppose the same could happen in SSB if MONITOR volume were high enough. Elecraft has a stiffener/damper fix for the VCO board if this is the problem you're having." Art WB8ENE |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
Guy,
You are quite right about the ability to whistle softly - and I might add, with only a single tone - usually a whistle is multi-frequency. I would suggest a better solution for testing than to 'whistle into the mic'. There are some PC based tone generators available as freeware - run the tone generator on the PC and direct the microphone in front of the speaker (or use the line input on the K3 to inject the audio - it depends on what you are trying to test). Google for "Marchland Function Generator" for a nice generator capable of several different waveforms or "ttg.exe" for a sine wave only generator with sweep capability. I use both and they work well, and I am certain there are others - you can use NCH tone generator for a trial period before it stops working, 73, Don W3FPR Guy Olinger K2AV wrote: > K3 is not an analog radio. Mic goes to a fixed gain op amp, an AF > multiplexer switch, and then to analog-digital conversion and number > soup. All sanity and/or weirdness is digital sanity and/or digital > weirdness. > > Whistling is usually 20-30 db louder than your spoken voice. That's > why people whistle when a shout doesn't make it. Takes a practiced > whistler to whistle softly. More like trying to play a woodwind > intrument. I'm sure some couldn't whistle soft to save their lives. > My mother couldn't, but she didn't need to. In my growing up > neighborhood, every mom had a distinctive whistle to round up their > kids. I could hear that whistle over the rumble of the big planes > over on the runways at Kirtland AFB, and she would never take "I > didn't hear it" as an excuse. But I digress... > > You're expecting hi-fi whistling into a mic? Not many voice mikes > will tolerate whistling and are already into distortion in the element > at that point. Why should a designer/manufacturer of a communication > rig spend any time/money to make sure a whistle is hi-fi? > > If you CAN whistle softly, try whistling at a level that only shows > ALC of 3 or 4 when the MIC/CMP is set up for your voice. Turn off MON > unless you are using headphones. Listening to MON on a speaker while > using a microphone seems to be third grade bad operating practice and > begs for SOME kind of distortion from looping audio. > > Since this is a digital radio, the artifacts from looping audio and/or > smash-mouth overload may not be the familiar analog symptoms. > > Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
On Mon, 3 May 2010 13:56:54 -0400, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>You're expecting hi-fi whistling into a mic? Not many voice mikes >will tolerate whistling and are already into distortion in the element >at that point. This could be true of an electret (the FET impedance converter can clip), but it is next to impossible to overload a dynamic mic. In the vast majority of cases, it is the INPUT STAGE that is being overloaded and clipping. I suspect that most of the artifacts being heard in this example beyond simple distortion are simply aliasing of the A/D converter. 73, Jim Brown K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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In reply to this post by Don Cunningham
Don,
Having a 'fix' (as in a prototype fix) is different than breaking a mod into production - and Bill stated it as a 'fix'. The mods are normally well documented on the K3 page of the Elecraft website, and I do not see that stiffener - so my conclusion is that it is still in the prototype stage. If you are experiencing a significant problem and would like to try it, perhaps Wayne or Eric could make that happen, but you would have to contact them and make that request. 73, Don W3FPR Don Cunningham wrote: > Art, > Do you happen to know when this was fixed?? I hate to bother support if you > do. Mine shipped in March, 2010. > 73, > Don, WB5HAK > > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4
On Mon, 03 May 2010 14:45:19 -0400, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>I would suggest a better solution for testing than to 'whistle into the >mic'. Yes. Smart sound engineers have learned to simply tap or scratch a mic to figure out if it's on and working, then speak into it to get a handle on quality. Blowing and whistling are bad ideas -- blowing causes overload of input stages on the low end, whistling on the high end. When I want a simple quick check of my rig tuning after changing bands and/or antennas, I'll simply tap or scratch the mic and watch for output and low SWR. And if I need to tune it, there's the XMIT button or even a long grunted "One." :) 73, Jim Brown K9YC ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV
Try sucking whistle rather than blowing and hold the mic away from the
mouth. Works for me David G3UNA Guy said: Whistling is usually 20-30 db louder than your spoken voice. That's why people whistle when a shout doesn't make it. Takes a practiced whistler to whistle softly. K2AV ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
Re: k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta?
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In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV
Hi Bill
Yes, I was using headphones. I will do further tests with the internal 2 tone generator and see if I still get the oscillation. Unfortunately I have very good hearing so every pip and squeak I can hear. Even with the sidetone running I can hear that mysterious relay resonance when keying. If Elecraft releases a mod or update I may try that at a later date. In the meantime its of no consequence to me. I was unfortunately spending a lot of time trying to EQ a mic and thats why I noticed the artifact. 73 John --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote: > From: Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] k3:TX Monitor-some odd sound -beta? > To: [hidden email] > Date: Monday, May 3, 2010, 7:54 AM > > > > Just noticed this when playing around with the K3's > monitor. > > > > With the Gate off > > EQ flat > > MH2 hand MIC > > TX test mode > > Band 7mhz > > > > While whistling there is a odd artifact. If I whistle > I get a sound that > > sounds like a oscillator pulling in a receiver. > I dont get any odd sounds > > with normal voice testing > > > > .With a continuous whistle I get this artifact > that is a mirror of the > > whistle, however it seems to shift frequency or pull > the louder you > > whistle.It might be a IMD product? I have never > noticed this before in > > the K3's monitor. I will also check the clubs K3's and > report back. > > > > Anyone else get this? > > > > Are you using headphones or the internal speaker? If > the latter, physical > microphonic modulation of the VCO can cause spur > artifacts. I've never > experienced this because I never use the speaker, but I've > noticed it on CW > signals from other K3s. The audible PITCH tone can > modulate the VCO causing > spurs at +/- PITCH setting. I suppose the same could > happen in SSB if > MONITOR volume were high enough. > > Elecraft has a stiffener/damper fix for the VCO board if > this is the problem > you're having. > > 73, Bill > > -- > View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/k3-TX-Monitor-some-odd-sound-beta-tp4997305p4998207.html > Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > ______________________________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm > Post: mailto:[hidden email] > > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html > ______________________________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post: mailto:[hidden email] This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html |
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