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more Bass in K3 with PR-40

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ac8jd

more Bass in K3 with PR-40

I have had this K3 up on the air for a few days now. I would be curious to know how I can get more "lows" or "bass" out of the TX on SSB with my PR-40. The audio reports I get from other stations are that I have a lot of "highs" and they can't open up their filter to get enough bandwidth on my signal to make it sound "lower".

I have the TC equalizer set according to Heil's website for the Pr-40 http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/dspsettings/all_elecraft.php

I just don't know how to achieve getting and lower levels to come out of the rig. I see in the manual to use the ESSB you have the 6khz filter. Would that help my situation?

TNX,
AC8JD

Bill Clarke

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

Try bring the lower four setting up to zero. The way it is now, to me,
seems to not allow much drive of the low end audio frequencies.

Bill W2BLC
--
IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician)
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ac8jd

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

By "lower four settings" you mean the 50hz - 400hz parts?

Raymond Sills

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by ac8jd

The rule of thumb in the world of professional audio is that you
should -cut- rather than boost frequencies to achieve the sound you
want when using "equalizers". So, if you have a lot of highs... cut
the highs. Adjust overall gain upward to compensate if the overall
level becomes too low.

From what I understand, "ESSB" is simply wider bandwidth sideband...
usually by using a wider filter to permit more low audio frequencies
and more high audio frequencies to pass through. The result is an on-
air signal that "sounds nicer"... since with it's wider bandwidth,
approaches the audio sound of an AM station that has no bandwidth
filtering or constriction.

You can argue the case that ESSB is not good amateur practice, since
you are using more bandwidth for your communication, but then, the
good practice (and FCC rule) of using only the minimum power necessary
to maintain communication is honored more in the breech, than the
observance. But, there are many hams, and many ways of communicating
and as long as the RF emissions are clean and in line with FCC
regulations, there's room for all types of signals and bandwidths.
Certainly, ESSB is no wider than an AM signal can be, and AM is
clearly permitted in the rules.

73 de Ray
K2ULR

On Jun 19, 2012, at 8:18 AM, ac8jd wrote:

> I have had this K3 up on the air for a few days now. I would be
> curious to
> know how I can get more "lows" or "bass" out of the TX on SSB with
> my PR-40.
> The audio reports I get from other stations are that I have a lot of
> "highs"
> and they can't open up their filter to get enough bandwidth on my
> signal to
> make it sound "lower".
>
> I have the TC equalizer set according to Heil's website for the Pr-40
> http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/dspsettings/all_elecraft.php
>
> I just don't know how to achieve getting and lower levels to come
> out of the
> rig. I see in the manual to use the ESSB you have the 6khz filter.
> Would
> that help my situation?
>
> TNX,
> AC8JD

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Scott Manthe-2

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by ac8jd

I don't know where Bob gets those settings. I've got a Gold LIne and
those setting will make it sound terrible.

First of all, you probably don't need an external equalizer, because the
K3 has an 8 band equalizer built in. The standard 2.7 kHz filter can be
made to sound acceptably good, but you're not going to get ESSB quality,
because of the bandwidth. You'd need the 6 kHz filter for that. I won't
get into the "ESSB as good practice debate," other than to say that most
"ESSB" guys I hear on the air sound ridiculous, and I was a professional
broadcaster for years.

I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With a
little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding signal
out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST" feature or a
dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.

Good luck getting your audio the way you want it!

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 6/19/12 8:18 AM, ac8jd wrote:

dmb@lightstream.net

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by ac8jd

Keep in mind that the PR 40 microphone is very sensitive to 'proximity
effect' (where close-talking the microphone results in a significant
rise in low frequency output). I'd suggest that you keep at least 3 to 4
inches away from the microphone while speaking, and keep that distance
*constant* as you experiment with your K3 TX EQ settings.

73, Dale
WA8SRA

On 6/19/2012 8:18 AM, ac8jd wrote:

> I have had this K3 up on the air for a few days now. I would be curious to
> know how I can get more "lows" or "bass" out of the TX on SSB with my PR-40.
> The audio reports I get from other stations are that I have a lot of "highs"
> and they can't open up their filter to get enough bandwidth on my signal to
> make it sound "lower".
>
> I have the TC equalizer set according to Heil's website for the Pr-40
> http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/dspsettings/all_elecraft.php
>
> I just don't know how to achieve getting and lower levels to come out of the
> rig. I see in the manual to use the ESSB you have the 6khz filter. Would
> that help my situation?
>
> TNX,
> AC8JD
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/more-Bass-in-K3-with-PR-40-tp7557805.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

> I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
> adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
> balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With
> a little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding
> signal out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST"
> feature or a dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.

Most quality microphones sound best with a roll off at 50 (-16) and
100 (-6 to -9) and a slight peaking at 1600 (+3) and 2400 (+5) bands.
If the microphone has some built-in peaking (e.g. Heil HC4/HC5) there
is no need for the added peaking.

The -200 Hz band can be increased slightly if your voice is "thin"
but that will not be necessary in most cases. Except for a very few
"super bass" voices there is no energy below about 100 Hz and rolling
off those frequencies significantly reduces background noise/hum in
the audio.

If a PR-40 or other "studio" dynamic microphone sounds "thin" work
closer to the mic to take advantage of the "presence" effect. Most
studio mics are designed to be worked closely so they pick up only
intended sounds and reject sound from other instruments/vocalists
in the room.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/19/2012 10:45 AM, Scott Manthe wrote:

> I don't know where Bob gets those settings. I've got a Gold LIne and
> those setting will make it sound terrible.
>
> First of all, you probably don't need an external equalizer, because the
> K3 has an 8 band equalizer built in. The standard 2.7 kHz filter can be
> made to sound acceptably good, but you're not going to get ESSB quality,
> because of the bandwidth. You'd need the 6 kHz filter for that. I won't
> get into the "ESSB as good practice debate," other than to say that most
> "ESSB" guys I hear on the air sound ridiculous, and I was a professional
> broadcaster for years.
>
> I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
> adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
> balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With a
> little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding signal
> out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST" feature or a
> dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.
>
> Good luck getting your audio the way you want it!
>
> 73,
> Scott, N9AA
>
>
>
> On 6/19/12 8:18 AM, ac8jd wrote:
>> I have had this K3 up on the air for a few days now. I would be curious to
>> know how I can get more "lows" or "bass" out of the TX on SSB with my PR-40.
>> The audio reports I get from other stations are that I have a lot of "highs"
>> and they can't open up their filter to get enough bandwidth on my signal to
>> make it sound "lower".
>>
>> I have the TC equalizer set according to Heil's website for the Pr-40
>> http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/dspsettings/all_elecraft.php
>>
>> I just don't know how to achieve getting and lower levels to come out of the
>> rig. I see in the manual to use the ESSB you have the 6khz filter. Would
>> that help my situation?
>>
>> TNX,
>> AC8JD
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Scott Manthe-2

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

Those are good recommendations, Joe. I agree with working close on
studio mics. The proximity effect was my good friend during my broadcast
career. I've got a good voice, but working close to the mic made me
sound like one of the "big voiced" guys.

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 6/19/12 11:54 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

> Most quality microphones sound best with a roll off at 50 (-16) and
> 100 (-6 to -9) and a slight peaking at 1600 (+3) and 2400 (+5) bands.
> If the microphone has some built-in peaking (e.g. Heil HC4/HC5) there
> is no need for the added peaking.
>
> The -200 Hz band can be increased slightly if your voice is "thin"
> but that will not be necessary in most cases. Except for a very few
> "super bass" voices there is no energy below about 100 Hz and rolling
> off those frequencies significantly reduces background noise/hum in
> the audio.
>
> If a PR-40 or other "studio" dynamic microphone sounds "thin" work
> closer to the mic to take advantage of the "presence" effect. Most
> studio mics are designed to be worked closely so they pick up only
> intended sounds and reject sound from other instruments/vocalists
> in the room.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>

Richard-3

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

I'm not disagreeing with the recommendations at all, but it seems that
the rationale may be a bit off for some? I believe the vocal range for
standard bass voices starts at about 87 Hz, "super" basses might get as
low as 65 Hz (C2). Perhaps the key point is that intelligibility is
concentrated around 1-2K Hz. Yes?

Interesting to listen to recordings of low bass notes with "standard"
microphones and then with mics that are sensitive to 50 Hz, and then
listen to background noise and A/C noise.

Rich
NU6T

On 6/19/2012 8:54 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>> I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
>> adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
>> balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With
>> a little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding
>> signal out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST"
>> feature or a dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.
> Most quality microphones sound best with a roll off at 50 (-16) and
> 100 (-6 to -9) and a slight peaking at 1600 (+3) and 2400 (+5) bands.
> If the microphone has some built-in peaking (e.g. Heil HC4/HC5) there
> is no need for the added peaking.
>
> The -200 Hz band can be increased slightly if your voice is "thin"
> but that will not be necessary in most cases. Except for a very few
> "super bass" voices there is no energy below about 100 Hz and rolling
> off those frequencies significantly reduces background noise/hum in
> the audio.
>
> If a PR-40 or other "studio" dynamic microphone sounds "thin" work
> closer to the mic to take advantage of the "presence" effect. Most
> studio mics are designed to be worked closely so they pick up only
> intended sounds and reject sound from other instruments/vocalists
> in the room.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>
> On 6/19/2012 10:45 AM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> I don't know where Bob gets those settings. I've got a Gold LIne and
>> those setting will make it sound terrible.
>>
>> First of all, you probably don't need an external equalizer, because the
>> K3 has an 8 band equalizer built in. The standard 2.7 kHz filter can be
>> made to sound acceptably good, but you're not going to get ESSB quality,
>> because of the bandwidth. You'd need the 6 kHz filter for that. I won't
>> get into the "ESSB as good practice debate," other than to say that most
>> "ESSB" guys I hear on the air sound ridiculous, and I was a professional
>> broadcaster for years.
>>
>> I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
>> adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
>> balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With a
>> little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding signal
>> out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST" feature or a
>> dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.
>>
>> Good luck getting your audio the way you want it!
>>
>> 73,
>> Scott, N9AA
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/19/12 8:18 AM, ac8jd wrote:
>>> I have had this K3 up on the air for a few days now. I would be curious to
>>> know how I can get more "lows" or "bass" out of the TX on SSB with my PR-40.
>>> The audio reports I get from other stations are that I have a lot of "highs"
>>> and they can't open up their filter to get enough bandwidth on my signal to
>>> make it sound "lower".
>>>
>>> I have the TC equalizer set according to Heil's website for the Pr-40
>>> http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/dspsettings/all_elecraft.php
>>>
>>> I just don't know how to achieve getting and lower levels to come out of the
>>> rig. I see in the manual to use the ESSB you have the 6khz filter. Would
>>> that help my situation?
>>>
>>> TNX,
>>> AC8JD
>>>
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Scott Manthe-2

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

The next time I hear an opera performed on the amateur bands, I'll
rethink my comments. But for communications, there is really no need to
use any frequency below 100Hz, even for "hifi" SSB. Notice when you
listen to an opera, bass singers often lack articulation and
intelligibility. There is a reason tenors get all the good parts...

73,
Scott, N9AA

On 6/19/12 1:06 PM, Rich wrote:

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Richard-3

> I believe the vocal range for standard bass voices starts at about 87
> Hz, "super" basses might get as low as 65 Hz (C2). Perhaps the key
> point is that intelligibility is concentrated around 1-2K Hz. Yes?

The lowest fundamental on record was 81 Hz IIRC ... most are closer
to ans slightly above 100 HZ - particularly when the test subject is
not making a conscious effort to breathe from the diaphragm/use a
"trained" voice. From the very beginning of voice communications AT&T
determined that 300-2700 Hz was more than adequate for "communications
audio" - also known as "toll grade audio".

Intelligibility is most important in the 1200-2400 Hz range - there is
no energy in the human voice between roughly 800 and 1200 Hz. That's
the reason I recommend +3dB at 1600 and +5dB at 2400 Hz (a 6dB/octave
rising characteristic across the important spectrum).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 6/19/2012 1:06 PM, Rich wrote:

> I'm not disagreeing with the recommendations at all, but it seems that
> the rationale may be a bit off for some? I believe the vocal range for
> standard bass voices starts at about 87 Hz, "super" basses might get as
> low as 65 Hz (C2). Perhaps the key point is that intelligibility is
> concentrated around 1-2K Hz. Yes?
>
> Interesting to listen to recordings of low bass notes with "standard"
> microphones and then with mics that are sensitive to 50 Hz, and then
> listen to background noise and A/C noise.
>
> Rich
> NU6T
>
>
> On 6/19/2012 8:54 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:
>>> I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
>>> adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
>>> balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With
>>> a little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding
>>> signal out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST"
>>> feature or a dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.
>> Most quality microphones sound best with a roll off at 50 (-16) and
>> 100 (-6 to -9) and a slight peaking at 1600 (+3) and 2400 (+5) bands.
>> If the microphone has some built-in peaking (e.g. Heil HC4/HC5) there
>> is no need for the added peaking.
>>
>> The -200 Hz band can be increased slightly if your voice is "thin"
>> but that will not be necessary in most cases. Except for a very few
>> "super bass" voices there is no energy below about 100 Hz and rolling
>> off those frequencies significantly reduces background noise/hum in
>> the audio.
>>
>> If a PR-40 or other "studio" dynamic microphone sounds "thin" work
>> closer to the mic to take advantage of the "presence" effect. Most
>> studio mics are designed to be worked closely so they pick up only
>> intended sounds and reject sound from other instruments/vocalists
>> in the room.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/19/2012 10:45 AM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>>> I don't know where Bob gets those settings. I've got a Gold LIne and
>>> those setting will make it sound terrible.
>>>
>>> First of all, you probably don't need an external equalizer, because the
>>> K3 has an 8 band equalizer built in. The standard 2.7 kHz filter can be
>>> made to sound acceptably good, but you're not going to get ESSB quality,
>>> because of the bandwidth. You'd need the 6 kHz filter for that. I won't
>>> get into the "ESSB as good practice debate," other than to say that most
>>> "ESSB" guys I hear on the air sound ridiculous, and I was a professional
>>> broadcaster for years.
>>>
>>> I would start at zero across the board, lowering the low end and
>>> adjusting the mids and highs *slightly* upward until you get a good
>>> balance of decent lows and good presence on the mid to high end. With a
>>> little patience and a good ear, you'll get an excellent sounding signal
>>> out of the K3. Of course, you'll want to use the "TEST" feature or a
>>> dummy load and listen to yourself with the TX monitor.
>>>
>>> Good luck getting your audio the way you want it!
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Scott, N9AA
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 6/19/12 8:18 AM, ac8jd wrote:
>>>> I have had this K3 up on the air for a few days now. I would be curious to
>>>> know how I can get more "lows" or "bass" out of the TX on SSB with my PR-40.
>>>> The audio reports I get from other stations are that I have a lot of "highs"
>>>> and they can't open up their filter to get enough bandwidth on my signal to
>>>> make it sound "lower".
>>>>
>>>> I have the TC equalizer set according to Heil's website for the Pr-40
>>>> http://www.heilsound.com/amateur/dspsettings/all_elecraft.php
>>>>
>>>> I just don't know how to achieve getting and lower levels to come out of the
>>>> rig. I see in the manual to use the ESSB you have the 6khz filter. Would
>>>> that help my situation?
>>>>
>>>> TNX,
>>>> AC8JD
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

On 6/19/2012 8:59 AM, Scott Manthe wrote:
> Those are good recommendations, Joe.

A couple of other points. First, there's virtually no speech energy
below 200 Hz -- anything the mic picks up in that range is hum, noise,
and breath pops -- so it is good engineering practice to roll off (that
is full cut) of the 50 Hz and 100 Hz band.

Second, while I don't know the specifics of the Heil mics, I'd guess
that there's a strong presence peak around 3 kHz to compensate the
rolloff produced by crystal filters in both the TX and the RX. This is
also good engineering practice, but taken too far can be too bright. The
easy solution in the K3 is to use some cut on the highest (and perhaps
next to highest) filters.

Third, a little proximity effect goes a long way, and proximity effect
is VERY sensitive to distance. Proximity effect also increases breath
pops and handling noise. When you work a mic TOO close, proximity
effect will cause the lows to get louder and softer with very small
changes in distance from your mouth. I use a Yamaha CM500, and keep it a
few inches above and to the side of my mouth so that breath pops don't
hit it (and so that I can swig coffee). I have the TXEQ and compression
adjusted for competitive contesting and DX audio, and I get reports of
great audio.

Like Joe and Scott, I'm a retired broadcast and pro audio engineer, and
I own several dozen pro mics, but I use the $40 Yamaha in my ham station.

73, Jim K9YC
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Bill Clarke

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by ac8jd

Yes - that would be 50 - 400 Hz for the lower end.
--
IN GOD I TRUST (but, NOT a single politician)
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k6dgw

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

FWIW: I set my TX EQ, mic gain, and compression like Jim told me to and
I use my Heil with the iC element just as he describes because he told
me that too. I don't operate a lot of SSB, but in contests, I will get
several unsolicited "great audio" comments over a few hours, every time,
guaranteed. My wife tells me I have an "ordinary" male voice so the
reports must be due to the radio. :-)

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2012 Cal QSO Party 6-7 Oct 2012
- www.cqp.org

On 6/19/2012 12:39 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

>I use a Yamaha CM500, and keep it a
> few inches above and to the side of my mouth so that breath pops don't
> hit it (and so that I can swig coffee). I have the TXEQ and compression
> adjusted for competitive contesting and DX audio, and I get reports of
> great audio.

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ac8jd

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

Thanks all for your Help! Joe's tips here were what did the trick! I finally got an audio report that stated I had plenty of lows and could actually use a little more high to round it off! I can work with that!

Thanks again!
73!
AC8JD

Lu Romero - W4LT

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by ac8jd

Can I add my "AMEN" to the thoughts below?

I also use a CM500 after dialing in some EQ and processing
and, especially, TX GATE for my rather noisy operating
environment (its either the garage next to the laundry or no
shack, so I make do!)

Although I do find it fun to test the AM capability of my
receivers listening to ESSB guys. Some have enough energy
past the carrier frequency that you can demodulate their
signals in AM... All that bass creates a phantom carrier.
These guys were ahead of their time in the unintended
implementation of MDCL technology (Modulation Dependent
Carrier Level, a way of saving electricity at AM stations
newly blessed by the FCC for broadcasters).

My station on air sound may not be very "manly", as an ESSB
guy once told me on the air, but in most cases, the other
guy tends to copy me well... And that is what this game is
all about, right?

-lu-w4lt-
K3/P3/K1

======================

Message: 18
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2012 12:39:50 -0700
From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] more Bass in K3 with PR-40
To: [hidden email]
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed

Second, while I don't know the specifics of the Heil mics,
I'd guess
that there's a strong presence peak around 3 kHz to
compensate the
rolloff produced by crystal filters in both the TX and the
RX. This is
also good engineering practice, but taken too far can be too
bright. The
easy solution in the K3 is to use some cut on the highest
(and perhaps
next to highest) filters.

Third, a little proximity effect goes a long way, and
proximity effect
is VERY sensitive to distance. Proximity effect also
increases breath
pops and handling noise. When you work a mic TOO close,
proximity
effect will cause the lows to get louder and softer with
very small
changes in distance from your mouth. I use a Yamaha CM500,
and keep it a
few inches above and to the side of my mouth so that breath
pops don't
hit it (and so that I can swig coffee). I have the TXEQ and
compression
adjusted for competitive contesting and DX audio, and I get
reports of
great audio.

Like Joe and Scott, I'm a retired broadcast and pro audio
engineer, and
I own several dozen pro mics, but I use the $40 Yamaha in my
ham station.

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Terry Schieler

Re: more Bass in K3 with PR-40

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

George Carlin was a master of using the "proximity" effect of a microphone (SM-58, etc) to accent his punch lines.

Terry, W0FM

-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Manthe [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2012 10:59 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] more Bass in K3 with PR-40

Those are good recommendations, Joe. I agree with working close on studio mics. The proximity effect was my good friend during my broadcast career. I've got a good voice, but working close to the mic made me sound like one of the "big voiced" guys.

73,
Scott, N9AA

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