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Tony Estep

(no subject)

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ....I should be able to provide a user-settable fine compensation value...

===============
Hi Wayne,
Thanks for the response. I would be happy to go through trial and error to
get this to work. Now I'm all set up to observe and measure the drift, so
it wouldn't be hard.

WSPR is pretty widely used (the WSPRNet database contains 98 million
spots). Just about every one of those spots was generated using a
transmitter running 5W or less. It seems like a natural for the KX3, and a
marketing niche that it would fill nicely.

I love my KX3 and can't wait to get this glitch ironed out. Thanks much for
your assistance.

73,
Tony KT0NY

--
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W7GJ, Lance

Re: (no subject)

No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about the frequency
stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds out of every
other minute, hour after hour. I certainly would appreciate any tips on how to keep
the frequency stable. Hopefully I will be able to run some actual on the air tests
over the next month and learn how people are seeing my signal stability with the
KX3. My K3 has always been rock solid. VY 73, Lance

On 7/17/2012 12:58 AM, Tony Estep wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 6:53 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> ....I should be able to provide a user-settable fine compensation value...
> ===============
> Hi Wayne,
> Thanks for the response. I would be happy to go through trial and error to
> get this to work. Now I'm all set up to observe and measure the drift, so
> it wouldn't be hard.
>
> WSPR is pretty widely used (the WSPRNet database contains 98 million
> spots). Just about every one of those spots was generated using a
> transmitter running 5W or less. It seems like a natural for the KX3, and a
> marketing niche that it would fill nicely.
>
> I love my KX3 and can't wait to get this glitch ironed out. Thanks much for
> your assistance.
>
> 73,
> Tony KT0NY
>
>

--
Lance Collister, W7GJ
(ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
USA
TEL: (406) 626-5728
QTH: DN27ub
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
Windows Messenger: [hidden email]
Skype: lanceW7GJ
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
page (above)!

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Tony Estep

Re: (no subject)

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Lance Collister, W7GJ <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...makes me wonder about the frequency stability on 6m with full throttle
> out on JT65A...

============
Lance, based on my experiments with JT65HF, you will not get good results
until the proposed firmware mod that allows you to tweak the temperature
compensation. JT65 uses a different scheme than WSPR, but it too has
stringent stability requirements. However, I am confident that Elecraft can
and will solve this. I am not a 6M ping jockey, but I know that JT65 is a
must for serious 6M operators, so I'm sure they'll find a way.

Tony KT0NY

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WB4SON

Re: (no subject)

Just as a FYI, from Joe Large (JT65-HF author), concerning JT65-HF, which
is probably the predominant version used on the K3 and KX3....

"If AFC is turned on you can probably suffer as much as 50 to 100 Hz (or
more) drift in a frame. Just a guess from experience. There's not need
for very high frequency stability though. Certainly anything less than 20
hz should be no issue.

73 - Joe - W6CQZ
"

So JT65 is a lot more tolerant than WSPR and on 20 meters at least the
reported 14 HZ drift is "no issue" according to the author himself.

PS, Tony, I've sent you via private mail the results of some tests I just
ran with my KX3.

73, Bob, WB4SON

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:29 PM, Tony Estep <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 8:17 PM, Lance Collister, W7GJ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > ...makes me wonder about the frequency stability on 6m with full throttle
> > out on JT65A...
>
> ============
> Lance, based on my experiments with JT65HF, you will not get good results
> until the proposed firmware mod that allows you to tweak the temperature
> compensation. JT65 uses a different scheme than WSPR, but it too has
> stringent stability requirements. However, I am confident that Elecraft can
> and will solve this. I am not a 6M ping jockey, but I know that JT65 is a
> must for serious 6M operators, so I'm sure they'll find a way.
>
> Tony KT0NY
>
> --
> http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>

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73, Bob, WB4SON

wayne burdick

JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

Administrator

In reply to this post by W7GJ, Lance

Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:

> No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about
> the frequency
> stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds
> out of every
> other minute, hour after hour....
>
> My K3 has always been rock solid.

Hi Lance,

The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive
to manufacture than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100
times more space, which is the real problem.

But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external 10-
MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a "KX3EXREF" --
the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job for the K3.

The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the SMA
connector as the 10-MHz input.

Would this be of interest?

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Tony Estep

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ....we could design an external 10-MHz locking module...

==========
If that's what it takes, I would go for it.

Tony KT0NY

--
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WB4SON

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

Personally I have no interest in the 2 meter module, so such an accessory
might be useful -- but I'd vote for an external lock, AND higher precision
osc. on such a board if it could fit -- I won't be taking a reference osc.
along with me on portable operation. But I do run JT65 due to its
excellent signal gain for low power/poor antennas.

Of course I would hope it could be turned on/off depending on mode so that
it doesn't drain too much power for something like CW.

73, Bob, WB4SON

PS: I'd really take a look at what is going on in the firmware in response
to temp changes. That's a HUGE change in frequency for such a small change
in temp, even for a simple osc. Of course that's just me looking at the
response as a black box, not knowing what is going on inside! (in other
words, feel free to slap me)
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73, Bob, WB4SON

W7GJ, Lance

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Well, I actually had my eye on the 2m module, too ;-) But of course, the stability
may be more of a problem there unless there can be some user adjusted correction.

Before I ask for anything on a wish list, I sure want to give this little unit a real
test. Hopefully soon I can report on how it performs at the heart of a portable 6m
EME station. Wired up the ACC2 to amp PTT cable this afternoon ;-)
Getting ready for the arrival! VY 73, Lance

On 7/17/2012 2:25 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:
>
>> No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about the frequency
>> stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds out of every
>> other minute, hour after hour....
>>
>> My K3 has always been rock solid.
>
> Hi Lance,
>
> The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive to manufacture
> than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100 times more space, which is the
> real problem.
>
> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation can't provide
> the stability you'd like, we could design an external 10-MHz locking module for it.
> This module would be called a "KX3EXREF" -- the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which
> does the same job for the K3.
>
> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be installed in place
> of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the SMA connector as the 10-MHz input.
>
> Would this be of interest?
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

wayne burdick

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

Administrator

In reply to this post by WB4SON

We might be able to put both a decent crystal reference and an
external lock circuit on it. I agree with your reasoning.

Wayne

On Jul 16, 2012, at 7:50 PM, Bob wrote:

> Personally I have no interest in the 2 meter module, so such an
> accessory might be useful -- but I'd vote for an external lock, AND
> higher precision osc. on such a board if it could fit -- I won't be
> taking a reference osc. along with me on portable operation. But I
> do run JT65 due to its excellent signal gain for low power/poor
> antennas.
>
> Of course I would hope it could be turned on/off depending on mode
> so that it doesn't drain too much power for something like CW.
>
>
> 73, Bob, WB4SON
>
> PS: I'd really take a look at what is going on in the firmware in
> response to temp changes. That's a HUGE change in frequency for
> such a small change in temp, even for a simple osc. Of course
> that's just me looking at the response as a black box, not knowing
> what is going on inside! (in other words, feel free to slap me)
>

Jim Brown-10

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

On 7/16/2012 8:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> We might be able to put both a decent crystal reference and an
> external lock circuit on it. I agree with your reasoning.

What I find really impressive about this thread is that a significant
issue raised by an analytical user at 4:13 PM was responded to at 4:53
PM by an OWNER of the company, who made it clear that he not only
understands the issue, but that he's going to FIX the problem. And by
8:36 PM they and a few other knowledgeable guys have made good
contributions to the discussion.

How many years did it take Yaesu to fix the key clicks in their flagship
radio? How many years did it take Ten Tec to get their Orion working
right?

73, Jim K9YC

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Frank Precissi

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:32 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]>wrote:

>
> What I find really impressive about this thread is that a significant
> issue raised by an analytical user at 4:13 PM was responded to at 4:53
> PM by an OWNER of the company, who made it clear that he not only
> understands the issue, but that he's going to FIX the problem. And by
> 8:36 PM they and a few other knowledgeable guys have made good
> contributions to the discussion.
>
>
This is why Elecraft has such a devout and dedicated following. People
underestimate the power of good support, listening to the people who fund
your business, and making a damn good quality product at a reasonable
price.

73, Frank KG6EYC
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Oliver Dröse

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Nice idea about how to fix it, Wayne. But how would this cure stability
issues on 2 m then? ;-)

73, Olli - DH8BQA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:25 AM
Subject: [Elecraft] JT65 requirements,and a possible external
reference-locking option for the KX3

> Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:
>
>> No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about
>> the frequency
>> stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds
>> out of every
>> other minute, hour after hour....
>>
>> My K3 has always been rock solid.
>
> Hi Lance,
>
> The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive
> to manufacture than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100
> times more space, which is the real problem.
>
> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
> can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external 10-
> MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a "KX3EXREF" --
> the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job for the K3.
>
> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
> installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the SMA
> connector as the 10-MHz input.
>
> Would this be of interest?
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
> -----
> E-Mail ist virenfrei.
> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
> Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virendatenbank: 2437/5135 - Ausgabedatum:
> 16.07.2012
>

wayne burdick

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

Administrator

If we took this route, we'd have three categories of KX3 users: (a)
wants the ultimate in stability but doesn't need 2 meters; (b) wants 2
meter coverage and is OK with nominal stability; (c) curses me for
making the KX3 too small :)

Wayne

On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:

> Nice idea about how to fix it, Wayne. But how would this cure
> stability issues on 2 m then? ;-)
>
> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:25 AM
> Subject: [Elecraft] JT65 requirements,and a possible external
> reference-locking option for the KX3
>
>
>> Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:
>>
>>> No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about
>>> the frequency
>>> stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds
>>> out of every
>>> other minute, hour after hour....
>>>
>>> My K3 has always been rock solid.
>>
>> Hi Lance,
>>
>> The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive
>> to manufacture than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100
>> times more space, which is the real problem.
>>
>> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
>> can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external
>> 10-
>> MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a "KX3EXREF"
>> --
>> the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job for the K3.
>>
>> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
>> installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the
>> SMA
>> connector as the 10-MHz input.
>>
>> Would this be of interest?
>>
>> 73,
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>> -----
>> E-Mail ist virenfrei.
>> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
>> Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virendatenbank: 2437/5135 - Ausgabedatum:
>> 16.07.2012

Rick Dettinger-3

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

Sounds like a K4 and a KX4!

73,
Rick K7MW

On Jul 17, 2012, at 5:17 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> If we took this route, we'd have three categories of KX3 users: (a)
> wants the ultimate in stability but doesn't need 2 meters; (b) wants 2
> meter coverage and is OK with nominal stability; (c) curses me for
> making the KX3 too small :)
>
> Wayne
>
>

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KH7T

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I know this is heresy but:
Why not use the battery pack and charger space for some additional super
features?
I am perfectly willing to go with external battery pack. This may have
other advantages, like Li PO and more capacity with easier charging.

John KH7T
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Barry K3NDM

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne,
I only use 2 meters as a local intercom. If I want to reach out and
touch people, I use HF. Giving up 2 meters on my KX3 for a high
stability oscillator appears to be a good trade. And from the sound of
your comments, it could be optional meaning a user would opt for what
best fit his requirements. Go for it if you think you can sell enough to
pay the R/D costs.

73,
Barry
K3NDM

On 7/17/2012 8:17 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> If we took this route, we'd have three categories of KX3 users: (a)
> wants the ultimate in stability but doesn't need 2 meters; (b) wants 2
> meter coverage and is OK with nominal stability; (c) curses me for
> making the KX3 too small :)
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
> On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
>
>> Nice idea about how to fix it, Wayne. But how would this cure
>> stability issues on 2 m then? ;-)
>>
>> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:25 AM
>> Subject: [Elecraft] JT65 requirements,and a possible external
>> reference-locking option for the KX3
>>
>>
>>> Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:
>>>
>>>> No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about
>>>> the frequency
>>>> stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds
>>>> out of every
>>>> other minute, hour after hour....
>>>>
>>>> My K3 has always been rock solid.
>>> Hi Lance,
>>>
>>> The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive
>>> to manufacture than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100
>>> times more space, which is the real problem.
>>>
>>> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
>>> can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external
>>> 10-
>>> MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a "KX3EXREF"
>>> --
>>> the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job for the K3.
>>>
>>> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
>>> installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the
>>> SMA
>>> connector as the 10-MHz input.
>>>
>>> Would this be of interest?
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Wayne
>>> N6KR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>> -----
>>> E-Mail ist virenfrei.
>>> Von AVG uberpruft - www.avg.de
>>> Version: 2012.0.2195 / Virendatenbank: 2437/5135 - Ausgabedatum:
>>> 16.07.2012
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

rlindzen

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

Ditto for me. The KX3 with a high stability
oscillator would be ideal for JT-65.

73,
Dick
WO1I

At 11:45 AM 7/18/2012, Barry LaZar wrote:
>Wayne,

> I only use 2 meters as a local intercom. If I want to reach out and
>touch people, I use HF. Giving up 2 meters on my KX3 for a high
>stability oscillator appears to be a good trade. And from the sound of
>your comments, it could be optional meaning a user would opt for what
>best fit his requirements. Go for it if you think you can sell enough to
>pay the R/D costs.
>
>73,
>Barry
>K3NDM
>
>
>
>On 7/17/2012 8:17 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> > If we took this route, we'd have three categories of KX3 users: (a)
> > wants the ultimate in stability but doesn't need 2 meters; (b) wants 2
> > meter coverage and is OK with nominal stability; (c) curses me for
> > making the KX3 too small :)
> >
> > Wayne
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:12 PM, Oliver Dröse wrote:
> >
> >> Nice idea about how to fix it, Wayne. But how would this cure
> >> stability issues on 2 m then? ;-)
> >>
> >> 73, Olli - DH8BQA
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
> >> To: <[hidden email]>
> >> Cc: "Elecraft" <[hidden email]>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 4:25 AM
> >> Subject: [Elecraft] JT65 requirements,and a possible external
> >> reference-locking option for the KX3
> >>
> >>
> >>> Lance Collister, W7GJ wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> No experience with the KX3 here yet, but this makes me wonder about
> >>>> the frequency
> >>>> stability on 6m with full throttle out on JT65A mode for 50 seconds
> >>>> out of every
> >>>> other minute, hour after hour....
> >>>>
> >>>> My K3 has always been rock solid.
> >>> Hi Lance,
> >>>
> >>> The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive
> >>> to manufacture than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100
> >>> times more space, which is the real problem.
> >>>
> >>> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
> >>> can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external
> >>> 10-
> >>> MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a "KX3EXREF"
> >>> --
> >>> the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job for the K3.
> >>>
> >>> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
> >>> installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the
> >>> SMA
> >>> connector as the 10-MHz input.
> >>>
> >>> Would this be of interest?
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Wayne
> >>> N6KR
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
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Tom Azlin N4ZPT-2

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Yes, that would be of interest Wayne. Have not yet tried JT65 with my
KX3 but good chance I will be using it with external transverters for 23cm.

thanks and 73, tom n4zpt

On 7/16/2012 10:25 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Hi Lance,
>
> The K3's oscillator subsystem is a factor of about 10 more expensive
> to manufacture than the one in the KX3. It also takes up about 100
> times more space, which is the real problem.
>
> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
> can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external
> 10- MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a
> "KX3EXREF" -- the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job
> for the K3.
>
> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
> installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the
> SMA connector as the 10-MHz input.
>
> Would this be of interest?
>
> 73, Wayne N6KR

Tom Azlin N4ZPT-2

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I also have a K3 so I either put in the KX3 internal 2m transverter or
the external ref board and am happy. I would have been happy with
external batteries and a thinner KX3 but then perhaps no room for some
of the modules. 73, tom n4zpt

On 7/17/2012 8:17 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> (c) curses me for making the KX3 too small :)

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Mike Murphree

Re: JT65 requirements, and a possible external reference-locking option for the KX3

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 9:25 PM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> But back to JT65. If it turns out the KX3's temperature compensation
> can't provide the stability you'd like, we could design an external 10-
> MHz locking module for it. This module would be called a "KX3EXREF" --
> the equivalent of the K3EXREF, which does the same job for the K3.
>
> The only drawback to such a module is that it would have to be
> installed in place of the planned 2-meter module. It would use the SMA
> connector as the 10-MHz input.
>
> Would this be of interest?
>
>
>

Even in place of the 2 meter module, yes!

Frequency stability will be important long term for current and future
modes.

73 Mike W4LNA
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