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odds and ends...

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Jeff Herr

odds and ends...

I am waiting for my KX3 as a number of you are.

When I get it I want to hook it up to the laptop for wspr and other stuff.

What will I need in the of cables?

WW6L

Jeff Herr

4636 Kelton Way

Sacramento,CA 95838

916.925.6089

[hidden email]

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W7GJ, Lance

Re: odds and ends...

Hi Jeff,

It depends what you want to do. I modified a RIGblaster NOMIC to provide the
capability to do everything:

http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj/KX3.htm

GL and VY 73, Lance

On 8/19/2012 2:56 PM, Jeff Herr wrote:

> I am waiting for my KX3 as a number of you are.
>
>
>
> When I get it I want to hook it up to the laptop for wspr and other stuff.
>
>
>
> What will I need in the of cables?
>
>
>
> WW6L
>
>
>
>
>
> Jeff Herr
>
> 4636 Kelton Way
>
> Sacramento,CA 95838
>
> 916.925.6089
>
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Lance Collister, W7GJ
(ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
USA
TEL: (406) 626-5728
QTH: DN27ub
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
Windows Messenger: [hidden email]
Skype: lanceW7GJ
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
page (above)!

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Jeff Herr

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Jeff Herr

Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these

A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
a plug that matches your sound card input on the
other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
required.

If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.

Where do I get it?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jeff Herr
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] odds and ends...

I am waiting for my KX3 as a number of you are.

When I get it I want to hook it up to the laptop for wspr and other stuff.

What will I need in the of cables?

WW6L

Jeff Herr

4636 Kelton Way

Sacramento,CA 95838

916.925.6089

[hidden email]

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Don Butler

KX3: No Transmit in SSB following ATU TUNE

I've had KX3 S/N 125 for over 3 months now. I'm still a happy camper and
have been having a ball. I did have issues with the KXPD3, but they were
solved by carefully reshaping the tips of the contact screws. But another
issue remains:

After activating ATU TUNE my KX3 will not transmit in USB or LSB.
BUT....Cycling the mode button to CW and then back to SSB always corrects
the problem. There has never been a problem on CW . just USB or LSB. I
don't operate digital modes so cannot say if there is a problem there. This
glitch has been present from the beginning. I operate primarily CW so haven't
given it much thought to this point, especially since cycling through the
modes has always provided a quick fix. At first I thought it was related to
band changes as it would occur almost every time I changed bands, but when I
got into the NAQP SSB fray last night it became apparent that it was related
to ATU TUNE... and I now realize that I've pretty much been running ATU TUNE
every time I change bands. The problem is 100% repeatable and it follows
every ATU TUNE activation. I'm using the MH3 mic... and am currently using
FW 1.12/.94 .. (but had the same behavior with FWs 1.10, 1.06, and 0.99)

The typical sequence is:

1.. band change to any band in SSB mode
2.. run ATU TUNE
3.. key the mic .. Ptt takes the KX3 out of receive but there is no
transmit output
4.. quickly cycle the mode button to CW and back to USB or LSB
5.. everything is now fine . ptt works, and talking through the mic
produces output.

Am I a loner with this glitch? ... or are others having similar experiences?

Don, N5LZ

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john-3

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by W7GJ, Lance

Hi Lance and Jeff, I am also waiting with baited breathe for my KX3. And I just happen to have a NOMIC laying around that I am not using so I am going to do your mods. What a cool conversion and such great docs and pics. Thanks a million.

73 John NS5Z

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 19, 2012, at 10:15 AM, "Lance Collister, W7GJ" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jeff,
>
> It depends what you want to do. I modified a RIGblaster NOMIC to provide the
> capability to do everything:
>
> http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj/KX3.htm
>
> GL and VY 73, Lance
>
>
>
> On 8/19/2012 2:56 PM, Jeff Herr wrote:
>> I am waiting for my KX3 as a number of you are.
>>
>>
>>
>> When I get it I want to hook it up to the laptop for wspr and other stuff.
>>
>>
>>
>> What will I need in the of cables?
>>
>>
>>
>> WW6L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Jeff Herr
>>
>> 4636 Kelton Way
>>
>> Sacramento,CA 95838
>>
>> 916.925.6089
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>
> --
> Lance Collister, W7GJ
> (ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ)
> P.O. Box 73
> Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
> USA
> TEL: (406) 626-5728
> QTH: DN27ub
> URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
> Windows Messenger: [hidden email]
> Skype: lanceW7GJ
> 2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815
>
> Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
> email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
> page (above)!
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

W7GJ, Lance

Re: odds and ends...

MNI TNX John! Sounds like you have the basic building blocks to make a full featured
interface for the KX3. GL and VY 73, Lance

On 8/19/2012 4:44 PM, All The Facts wrote:

> Hi Lance and Jeff, I am also waiting with baited breathe for my KX3. And I just happen to have a NOMIC laying around that I am not using so I am going to do your mods. What a cool conversion and such great docs and pics. Thanks a million.
>
> 73 John NS5Z
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Aug 19, 2012, at 10:15 AM, "Lance Collister, W7GJ" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi Jeff,
>>
>> It depends what you want to do. I modified a RIGblaster NOMIC to provide the
>> capability to do everything:
>>
>> http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj/KX3.htm
>>
>> GL and VY 73, Lance
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/19/2012 2:56 PM, Jeff Herr wrote:
>>> I am waiting for my KX3 as a number of you are.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When I get it I want to hook it up to the laptop for wspr and other stuff.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What will I need in the of cables?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> WW6L
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jeff Herr
>>>
>>> 4636 Kelton Way
>>>
>>> Sacramento,CA 95838
>>>
>>> 916.925.6089
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Lance Collister, W7GJ
>> (ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ)
>> P.O. Box 73
>> Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
>> USA
>> TEL: (406) 626-5728
>> QTH: DN27ub
>> URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
>> Windows Messenger: [hidden email]
>> Skype: lanceW7GJ
>> 2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815
>>
>> Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
>> email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
>> page (above)!
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>

Richard Ferch

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Jeff Herr

Jeff,

In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software requires
stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks will only
accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card itself is
stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for the sound
card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older laptop
I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the output jack is
stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is like either of these,
your only recourse may be to get an external USB sound card with stereo
inputs.

The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable of
sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of spectrum. If
you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that your sound card
can sample at higher rates.

Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it may
or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual RCA
phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you would need
to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two separate RCA
phono plugs for the sound card's input.

I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would need,
but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be combined
to achieve the desired result.

73,
Rich VE3KI

WW6L wrote:

> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>
> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
> a plug that matches your sound card input on the
> other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
> required.
>
> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>
> Where do I get it?

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: odds and ends...

> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable
> of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of
> spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that
> your sound card can sample at higher rates.

A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:

> Jeff,
>
> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software requires
> stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks will only
> accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card itself is
> stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for the sound
> card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older laptop
> I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the output jack is
> stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is like either of these,
> your only recourse may be to get an external USB sound card with stereo
> inputs.
>
> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable of
> sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of spectrum. If
> you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that your sound card
> can sample at higher rates.
>
> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it may
> or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual RCA
> phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you would need
> to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two separate RCA
> phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>
> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would need,
> but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be combined
> to achieve the desired result.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI
>
>
> WW6L wrote:
>
>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>
>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
>> a plug that matches your sound card input on the
>> other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
>> required.
>>
>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>
>> Where do I get it?
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

wb4jfi

Re: odds and ends...

Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.

So, with a 48k sample rate, you will get plus and minus 24k from center.

Sent from tfox iPad

On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:33 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable
>> of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of
>> spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that
>> your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>
> A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
> than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
>> Jeff,
>>
>> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
>> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software requires
>> stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks will only
>> accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card itself is
>> stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for the sound
>> card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older laptop
>> I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the output jack is
>> stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is like either of these,
>> your only recourse may be to get an external USB sound card with stereo
>> inputs.
>>
>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable of
>> sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of spectrum. If
>> you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that your sound card
>> can sample at higher rates.
>>
>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it may
>> or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual RCA
>> phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you would need
>> to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two separate RCA
>> phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>>
>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would need,
>> but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be combined
>> to achieve the desired result.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI
>>
>>
>> WW6L wrote:
>>
>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>>
>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
>>> a plug that matches your sound card input on the
>>> other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
>>> required.
>>>
>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>>
>>> Where do I get it?
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: odds and ends...

I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a
reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich
W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a
48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.

I do not doubt Nyquist, but I think the treatment of the numbers are a
bit different (factor of 2) Could it be due to the two channels? I
really don't know the answers and do not have the energy to investigate
such things anymore, I just choose to trust the experts who deal with
this I/Q stuff on a daily basis. I guess my scientific curiosity has
declined with advancing years - it is no longer enjoyable to argue on
the basis of observations vs. theory to sort out the differences - that
was "fun mind games" many years ago. but today it is no longer a challenge.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2012 5:45 PM, WB4JFI wrote:

> Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.
>
> So, with a 48k sample rate, you will get plus and minus 24k from center.
>
> Sent from tfox iPad
>
> On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:33 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable
>>> of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of
>>> spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that
>>> your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>> A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
>> than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>> On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
>>> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software requires
>>> stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks will only
>>> accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card itself is
>>> stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for the sound
>>> card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
>>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older laptop
>>> I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the output jack is
>>> stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is like either of these,
>>> your only recourse may be to get an external USB sound card with stereo
>>> inputs.
>>>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable of
>>> sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of spectrum. If
>>> you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that your sound card
>>> can sample at higher rates.
>>>
>>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it may
>>> or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual RCA
>>> phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you would need
>>> to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two separate RCA
>>> phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would need,
>>> but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be combined
>>> to achieve the desired result.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Rich VE3KI
>>>
>>>
>>> WW6L wrote:
>>>
>>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>>>
>>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
>>>> a plug that matches your sound card input on the
>>>> other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
>>>> required.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>>>
>>>> Where do I get it?
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Tim Herrick

Re: odds and ends...

Not really following this thread but I must have some really bad cards from creative, asus and m-audio as my 96KHz cards only get
96Khz total, 48KHz either side of center and my 192KHz cards only get 192KHz total, 96KHz either side of center using my K3, LP-Pan
and PowerSDR. Or with any of my SDR receivers and CWSkimmer. Or with any SDR receivers I build and test with Rocky, HDSDR, WinSDR
etc. I know of no known low cost sound card that will provide 384KHz of total audio bandwidth.

73,
Tim Herrick, KQ8M
Charter Member North Coast Contesters
[hidden email]

AR-Cluster V6 kq8m.no-ip.org
User Ports: 23, 7373 with local skimmer, 7374 without local skimmer
Server Ports: V6 3607, V4 Active 3605, V4 Passive 3606

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:54 PM
To: WB4JFI
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...

I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a
reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich
W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a
48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.

I do not doubt Nyquist, but I think the treatment of the numbers are a
bit different (factor of 2) Could it be due to the two channels? I
really don't know the answers and do not have the energy to investigate
such things anymore, I just choose to trust the experts who deal with
this I/Q stuff on a daily basis. I guess my scientific curiosity has
declined with advancing years - it is no longer enjoyable to argue on
the basis of observations vs. theory to sort out the differences - that
was "fun mind games" many years ago. but today it is no longer a challenge.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2012 5:45 PM, WB4JFI wrote:
> Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total
bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.

>
> So, with a 48k sample rate, you will get plus and minus 24k from center.
>
> Sent from tfox iPad
>
> On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:33 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable
>>> of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of
>>> spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that
>>> your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>> A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
>> than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>> On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
>>> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software requires
>>> stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks will only
>>> accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card itself is
>>> stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for the sound
>>> card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
>>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older laptop
>>> I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the output jack is
>>> stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is like either of these,
>>> your only recourse may be to get an external USB sound card with stereo
>>> inputs.
>>>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable of
>>> sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of spectrum. If
>>> you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that your sound card
>>> can sample at higher rates.
>>>
>>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it may
>>> or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual RCA
>>> phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you would need
>>> to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two separate RCA
>>> phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would need,
>>> but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be combined
>>> to achieve the desired result.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Rich VE3KI
>>>
>>>
>>> WW6L wrote:
>>>
>>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>>>
>>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
>>>> a plug that matches your sound card input on the
>>>> other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
>>>> required.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>>>
>>>> Where do I get it?
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Jeff Herr

Re: odds and ends...

Can someone explain why an external interface product, signalink, rig
blaster, etc is needed between a kx3 and a laptop?

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of KQ8M
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:12 PM
To: [hidden email]; 'WB4JFI'
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...

Not really following this thread but I must have some really bad cards from
creative, asus and m-audio as my 96KHz cards only get 96Khz total, 48KHz
either side of center and my 192KHz cards only get 192KHz total, 96KHz
either side of center using my K3, LP-Pan and PowerSDR. Or with any of my
SDR receivers and CWSkimmer. Or with any SDR receivers I build and test with
Rocky, HDSDR, WinSDR etc. I know of no known low cost sound card that will
provide 384KHz of total audio bandwidth.

73,
Tim Herrick, KQ8M
Charter Member North Coast Contesters
[hidden email]

AR-Cluster V6 kq8m.no-ip.org
User Ports: 23, 7373 with local skimmer, 7374 without local skimmer Server
Ports: V6 3607, V4 Active 3605, V4 Passive 3606

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:54 PM
To: WB4JFI
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...

I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a
reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich
W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a
48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.

I do not doubt Nyquist, but I think the treatment of the numbers are a bit
different (factor of 2) Could it be due to the two channels? I really don't
know the answers and do not have the energy to investigate such things
anymore, I just choose to trust the experts who deal with this I/Q stuff on
a daily basis. I guess my scientific curiosity has declined with advancing
years - it is no longer enjoyable to argue on the basis of observations vs.
theory to sort out the differences - that was "fun mind games" many years
ago. but today it is no longer a challenge.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2012 5:45 PM, WB4JFI wrote:
> Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at
> 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total
bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.

ground.

>>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older
>>> laptop I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the
>>> output jack is stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is
>>> like either of these, your only recourse may be to get an external
>>> USB sound card with stereo inputs.
>>>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card
>>> capable of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz
>>> of spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure
>>> that your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>>>
>>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it
>>> may or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual
>>> RCA phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you
>>> would need to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two
>>> separate RCA phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would
>>> need, but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be
>>> combined to achieve the desired result.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Rich VE3KI
>>>
>>>
>>> WW6L wrote:
>>>
>>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>>>
>>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and a plug that
>>>> matches your sound card input on the other end (typically 3.5 mm
>>>> [1/8"] stereo) is required.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>>>
>>>> Where do I get it?
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
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Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Pete Michaelis - N8TR

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Tim Herrick

My experience is the same as Tim's. I have an M-Audio Audiophile 2496 PCI
which is 96Khz card and I get a total bandwidth of 96Khz. With my 192Khz
Infrasonic Quartet PCI I get a total of 192 Khz. I use the LP-PAN with NaP3.
I assumed this satisfied Nyquist since both the I and Q channels were being
digitized.

73 Pete - N8TR

At 10:12 PM 8/19/2012, KQ8M wrote:

>Not really following this thread but I must have some really bad
>cards from creative, asus and m-audio as my 96KHz cards only get
>96Khz total, 48KHz either side of center and my 192KHz cards only
>get 192KHz total, 96KHz either side of center using my K3, LP-Pan
>and PowerSDR. Or with any of my SDR receivers and CWSkimmer. Or with
>any SDR receivers I build and test with Rocky, HDSDR, WinSDR
>etc. I know of no known low cost sound card that will provide 384KHz
>of total audio bandwidth.
>
>73,
>Tim Herrick, KQ8M
>Charter Member North Coast Contesters
>[hidden email]

Jim Rhodes-2

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Jeff Herr

Many (most?) laptop sound inputs are mono inputs and you need 2 channels
for IQ work. My old Gateway laptop switches depending on what is plugged
into it but my newer Samsung only does mono.

Jim K0XU Sent from my Xoom tablet
On Aug 19, 2012 9:53 PM, "Jeff Herr" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Can someone explain why an external interface product, signalink, rig
> blaster, etc is needed between a kx3 and a laptop?
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of KQ8M
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:12 PM
> To: [hidden email]; 'WB4JFI'
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...
>
> Not really following this thread but I must have some really bad cards from
> creative, asus and m-audio as my 96KHz cards only get 96Khz total, 48KHz
> either side of center and my 192KHz cards only get 192KHz total, 96KHz
> either side of center using my K3, LP-Pan and PowerSDR. Or with any of my
> SDR receivers and CWSkimmer. Or with any SDR receivers I build and test
> with
> Rocky, HDSDR, WinSDR etc. I know of no known low cost sound card that will
> provide 384KHz of total audio bandwidth.
>
> 73,
> Tim Herrick, KQ8M
> Charter Member North Coast Contesters
> [hidden email]
>
> AR-Cluster V6 kq8m.no-ip.org
> User Ports: 23, 7373 with local skimmer, 7374 without local skimmer Server
> Ports: V6 3607, V4 Active 3605, V4 Passive 3606
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 9:54 PM
> To: WB4JFI
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...
>
> I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a
> reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich
> W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a
> 48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.
>
> I do not doubt Nyquist, but I think the treatment of the numbers are a bit
> different (factor of 2) Could it be due to the two channels? I really
> don't
> know the answers and do not have the energy to investigate such things
> anymore, I just choose to trust the experts who deal with this I/Q stuff on
> a daily basis. I guess my scientific curiosity has declined with advancing
> years - it is no longer enjoyable to argue on the basis of observations vs.
> theory to sort out the differences - that was "fun mind games" many years
> ago. but today it is no longer a challenge.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/19/2012 5:45 PM, WB4JFI wrote:
> > Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at
> > 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total
> bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.
> >
> > So, with a 48k sample rate, you will get plus and minus 24k from center.
> >
> > Sent from tfox iPad
> >
> > On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:33 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
> >>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card
> >>> capable of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz
> >>> of spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure
> >>> that your sound card can sample at higher rates.
> >> A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
> >> than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> ... Joe, W4TV
> >>
> >> On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
> >>> Jeff,
> >>>
> >>> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
> >>> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software
> >>> requires stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks
> >>> will only accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card
> >>> itself is stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for
> >>> the sound card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and
> ground.
> >>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older
> >>> laptop I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the
> >>> output jack is stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is
> >>> like either of these, your only recourse may be to get an external
> >>> USB sound card with stereo inputs.
> >>>
> >>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
> >>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card
> >>> capable of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz
> >>> of spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure
> >>> that your sound card can sample at higher rates.
> >>>
> >>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it
> >>> may or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual
> >>> RCA phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you
> >>> would need to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two
> >>> separate RCA phono plugs for the sound card's input.
> >>>
> >>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would
> >>> need, but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be
> >>> combined to achieve the desired result.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Rich VE3KI
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> WW6L wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
> >>>>
> >>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and a plug that
> >>>> matches your sound card input on the other end (typically 3.5 mm
> >>>> [1/8"] stereo) is required.
> >>>>
> >>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
> >>>>
> >>>> Where do I get it?
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> >>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> >> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> > list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Matt Maguire

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On 20/08/2012, at 11:54 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a
> reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich
> W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a
> 48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.

The reason is simple -- they are either misquoted, misunderstood, or mistaken. A sound card with a sample rate of 48kHz will allow cover the spectrum up to LO+/-24kHz, or 48kHz of spectrum centred around the LO. If the sound card has a sample rate of 96kHz, the panadaptor will display up to LO+/-48kHz, or 96kHz of spectrum.

If the sound card has a low pass filter in the audio chain, then this limits the width further (eg. a 20kHz LPF is common in quality soundcards, so the spectrum available is limited to LO+/-20kHz, or 40kHz of spectrum, even if the sample rate would be 192kHz).

73, Matt VK2ACL

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Jeff Herr

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

From the manual

 Set the correct sampling rate. Use of 48 kHz
sampling will result in a display of almost 48
kHz: 24 kHz above and 24 kHz below the
frequency to which the KX3 is tuned. 96 kHz
sampling will yield approximately +/- 48 kHz
of spectrum, and 192 kHz sampling will yield a
display of about +/- 96 kHz

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:54 PM
To: WB4JFI
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...

I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a
48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.

I do not doubt Nyquist, but I think the treatment of the numbers are a bit different (factor of 2) Could it be due to the two channels? I really don't know the answers and do not have the energy to investigate such things anymore, I just choose to trust the experts who deal with this I/Q stuff on a daily basis. I guess my scientific curiosity has declined with advancing years - it is no longer enjoyable to argue on the basis of observations vs. theory to sort out the differences - that was "fun mind games" many years ago. but today it is no longer a challenge.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/19/2012 5:45 PM, WB4JFI wrote:

> Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.
>
> So, with a 48k sample rate, you will get plus and minus 24k from center.
>
> Sent from tfox iPad
>
> On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:33 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card
>>> capable of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz
>>> of spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure
>>> that your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>> A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
>> than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>> On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
>>> Jeff,
>>>
>>> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
>>> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software
>>> requires stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks
>>> will only accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card
>>> itself is stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for
>>> the sound card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
>>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older
>>> laptop I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the
>>> output jack is stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is
>>> like either of these, your only recourse may be to get an external
>>> USB sound card with stereo inputs.
>>>
>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card
>>> capable of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz
>>> of spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure
>>> that your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>>>
>>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it
>>> may or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual
>>> RCA phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you
>>> would need to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two
>>> separate RCA phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>>>
>>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would
>>> need, but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be
>>> combined to achieve the desired result.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Rich VE3KI
>>>
>>>
>>> WW6L wrote:
>>>
>>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>>>
>>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and a plug that
>>>> matches your sound card input on the other end (typically 3.5 mm
>>>> [1/8"] stereo) is required.
>>>>
>>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>>>
>>>> Where do I get it?
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this email
> list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Bill Frantz

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Jeff Herr

The other reason I might want an external interface is to have a
larger dynamic range into the computer. Most computers have a 16
bit A/D. With a 24 bit A/D you will have less trouble with
strong signals causing overload when trying to receive weak signals.

IMHO, using the computer audio I/O is a nice way to get your
feet wet in digital modes. However it is like a beginning rig --
limited in performance. People who opt for an Elecraft class
radio probably will want something better.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 8/19/12 at 20:30, [hidden email] (Jeff Herr) wrote:

>Good explanation! Thanks.
>
>Your first!
>
>My asus/realtek has full stereo ins and outs, via two 3.5 mm ports.
>
>I cant see a reason I need one.....you DO need one.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Bill Frantz [mailto:[hidden email]] Sent: Sunday,
>August 19, 2012 8:20 PM
>To: Jeff Herr
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] odds and ends...
>
>With my small screen MacBook Pro, there is only one stereo
>audio jack on the computer. It can be configured for either
>input or output via a control panel, but not both, so if I want
>to both send and receive, an external USB audio interface is
>the easiest way to go. (Larger screen MacBook Pros have two jacks.)
>
>Cheers - Bill, AE6JV
>
>On 8/19/12 at 19:54, [hidden email] (Jeff Herr) wrote:
>
>>Can someone explain why an external interface product,
>>signalink, rig blaster, etc is needed between a kx3 and a laptop?
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Bill Frantz |Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
>(408)356-8506 |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345
>Englewood Ave
>www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum | Los Gatos,
>CA 95032
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"After all, if the conventional wisdom was
working, the
408-356-8506 | rate of systems being compromised would be
going down,
www.pwpconsult.com | wouldn't it?" -- Marcus Ranum

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wb4jfi

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

"Reputable" companies also sell oxygen-depleted cables to audiophiles.

You can't cheat mother nature, no matter how hard you try. I don't doubt that they can display whatever they want, but as to actual, significant data displayed thereon, that's a different matter.

A single channel of adc samples at 48ks/s can only display VALID unique frequency data up to 24 kHz before the spectrum "folds over". Since both I and Q can be used, they effectively double the sample rate, as if you were sampling at 96k. Not exactly correct, but close enough.

Nyquist -who is still valid in the real world - theory says that you can only recover signals whose freq is up to one-half the sample rate. Again, I am generalizing, but close enough. So, one-half of 96k is 48k, not 96k. Factoring not involved. 48k total bandwidth before the spectrum folds over. Doesn't matter what the display says. Try it on Rocky, Powersdr, hdsdr, winrad, etc.

I'm not saying that Joe or Larry are doing anything wrong, just that if your sound card (or DDC or other device) is providing I/Q samples at 48ks/s per I/Q pair, th best you can get is a total of 48k of valid, unique, and correct spectrum data points. That usually results in plus and minus 24khz being displayed around center frequency.

To say that you can display 96k of unique, correct spectrum data from a 48ks/s rate I/Q pair is, well, not accurate (wrong). It's like depleting too much oxygen from your speaker cables. You end up with a hollow sound, like taking the oxygen away left too much room for the electrons to bounce around in. If you like fuzzy bass, that's ok.

But, I've been wrong before.
Sent from tfox iPad

On Aug 19, 2012, at 9:54 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I don't know the advertized numbers, but Mr. Nyquist aside, there is a reason that two independent experts with panadapter displays (Joe Subich W4TV and Larry Phipps K8LP of LP-Pan fame) state that a soundcard with a 48 kHz rate will produce a 96 kHz span on the pan display.
>
> I do not doubt Nyquist, but I think the treatment of the numbers are a bit different (factor of 2) Could it be due to the two channels? I really don't know the answers and do not have the energy to investigate such things anymore, I just choose to trust the experts who deal with this I/Q stuff on a daily basis. I guess my scientific curiosity has declined with advancing years - it is no longer enjoyable to argue on the basis of observations vs. theory to sort out the differences - that was "fun mind games" many years ago. but today it is no longer a challenge.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/19/2012 5:45 PM, WB4JFI wrote:
>> Mr Nyquist would be happily surprised at that. With I&Q samples at 48kS/s each, you get a maximum of 48kHz, or one-half the total bandwidth. Not 48k+48k.
>>
>> So, with a 48k sample rate, you will get plus and minus 24k from center.
>>
>> Sent from tfox iPad
>>
>> On Aug 19, 2012, at 4:33 PM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable
>>>> of sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of
>>>> spectrum. If you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that
>>>> your sound card can sample at higher rates.
>>> A sound card capable of 48 KHz sample rate can display slightly less
>>> than 96 KHz. With I/Q inputs and 48 KHz sampling you get +/- 48 KHz.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>>
>>> On 8/19/2012 4:20 PM, Richard Ferch wrote:
>>>> Jeff,
>>>>
>>>> In addition to the cable, you will also need to be sure that your
>>>> laptop's sound card accepts stereo input. Panadapter software requires
>>>> stereo input (I and Q channels). Some laptop input jacks will only
>>>> accept mono signals, even though the laptop's sound card itself is
>>>> stereo. My newest laptop, for example, has a TRRS jack for the sound
>>>> card with a single input line, two stereo output lines, and ground.
>>>> I have no way to get stereo input into this sound card. An older laptop
>>>> I have has separate input and output jacks, but while the output jack is
>>>> stereo, the input jack is mono. If your laptop is like either of these,
>>>> your only recourse may be to get an external USB sound card with stereo
>>>> inputs.
>>>>
>>>> The sound card's maximum sampling rate will determine how wide your
>>>> panadapter display can be (in kHz); for example, a sound card capable of
>>>> sampling at 48 kHz can display slightly less than 48 kHz of spectrum. If
>>>> you want a wider display, you will have to ensure that your sound card
>>>> can sample at higher rates.
>>>>
>>>> Note that if you need to use an external (e.g. USB) sound card, it may
>>>> or may not have 3.5mm inputs. For example, I have one with dual RCA
>>>> phono jacks for its line inputs. With one of these cards, you would need
>>>> to go from 2.5mm stereo for the KX3's RX I/Q jack to two separate RCA
>>>> phono plugs for the sound card's input.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know whether Radio Shack has the specific cable you would need,
>>>> but I am sure that they have cables and adapters that could be combined
>>>> to achieve the desired result.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Rich VE3KI
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> WW6L wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Per the manual Iit looks like I would need one of these
>>>>>
>>>>> A cable with a 2.5 mm (3/32") plug on one end and
>>>>> a plug that matches your sound card input on the
>>>>> other end (typically 3.5 mm [1/8"] stereo) is
>>>>> required.
>>>>>
>>>>> If I want to see a panadapter display on my laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Where do I get it?
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
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>>>>
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>>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: odds and ends...

> A single channel of adc samples at 48ks/s can only display VALID
> unique frequency data up to 24 kHz before the spectrum "folds over".
> Since both I and Q can be used, they effectively double the sample
> rate, as if you were sampling at 96k. Not exactly correct, but close
> enough.

Correct ... I was recalling the bandwidth from the built-in sound
device on one of my systems and thinking (incorrectly as it turns
out) that it was sampling at 48 KHz when it actually has 96KHz
drivers.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/19/2012 11:51 PM, WB4JFI wrote:

> "Reputable" companies also sell oxygen-depleted cables to
> audiophiles.
>
> You can't cheat mother nature, no matter how hard you try. I don't
> doubt that they can display whatever they want, but as to actual,
> significant data displayed thereon, that's a different matter.
>
> A single channel of adc samples at 48ks/s can only display VALID
> unique frequency data up to 24 kHz before the spectrum "folds over".
> Since both I and Q can be used, they effectively double the sample
> rate, as if you were sampling at 96k. Not exactly correct, but close
> enough.
>
> Nyquist -who is still valid in the real world - theory says that you
> can only recover signals whose freq is up to one-half the sample
> rate. Again, I am generalizing, but close enough. So, one-half of
> 96k is 48k, not 96k. Factoring not involved. 48k total bandwidth
> before the spectrum folds over. Doesn't matter what the display
> says. Try it on Rocky, Powersdr, hdsdr, winrad, etc.
>
> I'm not saying that Joe or Larry are doing anything wrong, just that
> if your sound card (or DDC or other device) is providing I/Q samples
> at 48ks/s per I/Q pair, th best you can get is a total of 48k of
> valid, unique, and correct spectrum data points. That usually
> results in plus and minus 24khz being displayed around center
> frequency.
>
> To say that you can display 96k of unique, correct spectrum data from
> a 48ks/s rate I/Q pair is, well, not accurate (wrong). It's like
> depleting too much oxygen from your speaker cables. You end up with
> a hollow sound, like taking the oxygen away left too much room for
> the electrons to bounce around in. If you like fuzzy bass, that's
> ok.
>
> But, I've been wrong before. Sent from tfox iPad
>
>

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: odds and ends...

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

On 8/19/2012 11:40 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> The other reason I might want an external interface is to have a
> larger dynamic range into the computer. Most computers have a 16
> bit A/D. With a 24 bit A/D you will have less trouble with
> strong signals causing overload when trying to receive weak signals.

With real receivers you probably will never notice the difference in
dynamic range between a 16 and 24 bit sound card. The receiver AGC
- even only modest AGC - will keep the dynamic range presented to the
sound card well within anything the 16 bit sound card can handle.
That is *unless* the 16 bit card is poorly designed with internal
noise that wastes a significant part of the 16 bit range.

Even without AGC, the range between "background noise" (the noise
floor of the demodulation process including sky noise, thermal
noise in the IF, etc.) and the clipping point of the audio output
can be considerably less than 90 dB in "real" receivers. Audio
output levels tend to range from around 10 mV with "no signal" to
just under 5V P-P (2V RMS) at best ... that's less than 50 dB.
Even if one assumes the software can decode a 1 mV signal in the
10 mV nose floor, the resulting dynamic range is still much less
than 90 dB provided by a properly designed 16 bit sound card and
unless the 24 bit soundcard uses other than the typical 5V power
supply, its real performance will be limited by the same 5V P-P
audio levels!

Taken a step further - if the receiver produces a 1 mV noise floor
with 24V P-P output (+/- 12V supplies), that's *still* less than
90 dB of range.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 8/19/2012 11:40 PM, Bill Frantz wrote:

> The other reason I might want an external interface is to have a
> larger dynamic range into the computer. Most computers have a 16
> bit A/D. With a 24 bit A/D you will have less trouble with
> strong signals causing overload when trying to receive weak signals.
>
> IMHO, using the computer audio I/O is a nice way to get your
> feet wet in digital modes. However it is like a beginning rig --
> limited in performance. People who opt for an Elecraft class
> radio probably will want something better.
>
> Cheers - Bill, AE6JV
>