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"On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

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Bill Frantz

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

I sympathise with Andy's view, but there's another way of
looking at it:

Suppose you like tha ancient art of conversation with strangers,
which I do. In fact, I'm doing it now. Now, what strangers do
you want to select from? There are the people next to you in
line at the airport (or at least there were BC). There are the
people on long distance trains. etc.

But to select for people who are interested and knowledgable
about radio communications, other hams are a pretty good choice.
And what better place to find them than on the air?

Yes, you can find them on this list, and we are blessed with
some true experts. But what happens here is more like letter
writing than conversation. For conversation you need faster
response. Pick up a mic, key, or an interactive digital mode and
have a conversation.

73 Bill AE6JV

In this case CW, PSK, RTTY, SSB, FM etc. etc. etc. are close to
the end itself.

On 7/12/20 at 5:51 PM, [hidden email] (Andy Durbin) wrote:

>I see CW as a "means to an end" and, for me, the "end" is
>chasing DX. If the DX is working CW I'll call them with CW.
>If they are working FT8 then I'll call them with FT8. It now
>seems far more likely that the DX I need is working FT8 and not
>CW. Despite that, in my 8.5 years chasing DX as a "K", I have
>more DX confirmed using CW than with digital or phone.
>
>I still can't have a CW conversation at more than about 14 wpm
>and never rag-chew. No problem reading my own call at 35 wpm
>though, so happy to chase DX at that speed if that's the speed
>the DX wants to work.
>
>CW is just the "means". If I want a conversation I can use Skype.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Re IOT: "How many access control systems
does it take
www.pwpconsult.com | to change a light bulb?" - Dean Tribble

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Charlie T, K3ICH

FW: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

Yep, I've made some FT-8 contacts.
It was about as much fun as watching grass grow !
No thanks.
I'm NOT a big CW guy either, but I can do it if I need to.

73, Charlie k3ICH

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ANDY DURBIN

"On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

"Yep, I've made some FT-8 contacts. It was about as much fun as watching grass grow !"

Each to his own of course but, for me, the pleasure of making a contact has almost nothing to do with the mode used and almost everything to do with how much I wanted to contact that station. I say "almost" because I still enjoy CW more than other modes.

How many would refuse to work Bouvet if FT8 is the only mode they choose to use when/if it is activated?

Andy, k3wyc
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Carl Yaffey

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

My two cents: FT8 is a bit more than using a computer to make contacts. Believe it or not, there is skill involved. Just try working a DX station when a load of others are trying. Can you say “pile up”? It ain’t simple.

> On Jul 13, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Andy Durbin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> "Yep, I've made some FT-8 contacts. It was about as much fun as watching grass grow !"
>
>

Carl Yaffey K8NU
614 268 6353, Columbus OH
http://www.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.grassahol.com
http://www.bluesswing.com
Https://www.columbusfolkmusicsociety.org
http://www.timbrewolves.carl-yaffey.com
http://www.folkramblers.carl-yaffey.com
Http:www.clintonvillegrass.com

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David Herring

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

This is correct...there is skill and strategy involved with FT8.

Sure, on a relatively empty band you can set and forget and let the software do all the work. Blindly call CQ and let others come find you. Yes, that could be construed as watching paint dry or grass growing.

How often does an empty band happen? For me, and the times I’m on, never.

Our little segment of FT8 is usually jammed from side to side with stations. At times it’s hard to get a word in edgewise. ;-) (And don’t get me started on the ops who grossly over modulate, spill out and take up half of our space…)

If there’s a specific station you want to work, there is strategy and timing involved to increase your chances of making it into their decode window as a red line. It’s not rocket science, but it’s not Ronco Ron Popeil (“set it and forget it”) either. One can experiment with which window to start calling in, and moving the transmit point around, often to good effect.

I have only gradually become aware of the strategy and timing aspects of FT8 by using it a lot. Seeing what works and what doesn’t. And I’m still learning by doing.

I offer this only as point of consideration for those who may not have thought about it in this way. I’m not necessarily an FT8 evangelist. I love other aspects of the hobby as much or more.

The beauty of this hobby is that you can take what you like and leave the rest for someone else.

73,
David - N5DCH

> On Jul 13, 2020, at 9:48 AM, Carl Yaffey <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My two cents: FT8 is a bit more than using a computer to make contacts. Believe it or not, there is skill involved. Just try working a DX station when a load of others are trying. Can you say “pile up”? It ain’t simple.
>
>> On Jul 13, 2020, at 11:39 AM, Andy Durbin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> "Yep, I've made some FT-8 contacts. It was about as much fun as watching grass grow !"
>>
>>
>
> Carl Yaffey K8NU
> 614 268 6353, Columbus OH
> http://www.carl-yaffey.com
> http://www.grassahol.com
> http://www.bluesswing.com
> Https://www.columbusfolkmusicsociety.org
> http://www.timbrewolves.carl-yaffey.com
> http://www.folkramblers.carl-yaffey.com
> Http:www.clintonvillegrass.com
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

In reply to this post by ANDY DURBIN

I wouldn't bother. My DXCC certificate says "CW" on it.

73,
Victor, 4X6GP
Rehovot, Israel
Formerly K2VCO
CWops no. 5
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/

On 13/07/2020 18:39, Andy Durbin wrote:

> "Yep, I've made some FT-8 contacts. It was about as much fun as
> watching grass grow !"
>
> Each to his own of course but, for me, the pleasure of making a
> contact has almost nothing to do with the mode used and almost
> everything to do with how much I wanted to contact that station. I
> say "almost" because I still enjoy CW more than other modes.
>
> How many would refuse to work Bouvet if FT8 is the only mode they
> choose to use when/if it is activated?
>
> Andy, k3wyc

Wes Stewart-2

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

In reply to this post by Carl Yaffey

Although I have little use for FT8 I did try it early on and from time to time I
try it again. I have learned that to work DX with a modest station such as I
have, some skill in signal placement and timing is important. Unfortunately,
FT8 removes the timing trick, but signal placement does make a difference.

My gripes with the mode is that it's too easy for DX stations to plop down on an
FT8 freq and never check propagation or operate on traditional modes. Another
is that ARRL hasn't seen fit to create a separate DXCC award for these modes,
but has lumped it in with RTTY (which has been downgraded to "Digital"). My
DXCC certificate says, "RTTY" and I want to keep it that way.

Wes N7WS

On 7/13/2020 8:48 AM, Carl Yaffey wrote:
> My two cents: FT8 is a bit more than using a computer to make contacts. Believe it or not, there is skill involved. Just try working a DX station when a load of others are trying. Can you say “pile up”? It ain’t simple.

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N7US

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

And I have one that says "RTTY" but it's now a Digital DXCC. I had to
resort to FT8 to work Monaco to get on the Digital Honor Roll, with the
other 330 having been on RTTY.

Jim N7US

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 11:37 AM Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> I wouldn't bother. My DXCC certificate says "CW" on it.
>
> 73,
> Victor, 4X6GP
> Rehovot, Israel
> Formerly K2VCO
> CWops no. 5
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
>
> On 13/07/2020 18:39, Andy Durbin wrote:
> > "Yep, I've made some FT-8 contacts. It was about as much fun as
> > watching grass grow !"
> >
> > Each to his own of course but, for me, the pleasure of making a
> > contact has almost nothing to do with the mode used and almost
> > everything to do with how much I wanted to contact that station. I
> > say "almost" because I still enjoy CW more than other modes.
> >
> > How many would refuse to work Bouvet if FT8 is the only mode they
> > choose to use when/if it is activated?
> >
> > Andy, k3wyc
>
>

Charlie T, K3ICH

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

Mine DXCC certificate says "50 MHZ"
Actually up to about 160 by now, all on SSB or CW.

73, Charlie k3ICH

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On
Behalf Of Jim McDonald
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 3:17 PM
To: Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

And I have one that says "RTTY" but it's now a Digital DXCC. I had to
resort to FT8 to work Monaco to get on the Digital Honor Roll, with the
other 330 having been on RTTY.

Jim N7US

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 11:37 AM Victor Rosenthal 4X6GP <[hidden email]>
wrote:

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Kurt Pawlikowski

Re: "On second thought, I'll take the stairs."

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wayne: Would you mind if I forwarded this to our ham newsletter editor
for reprint? Thanks! k WB9FMC

On 7/12/2020 10:07 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> I have a friend about my age who got into amateur radio only a few years ago. Like many of us, he was enthusiastic about the technology. Intrigued with DX.
>
> I showed him my station; we talked endlessly about gear. Later, I helped him put up a simple wire antenna.
>
> Then, when his license arrived, he dove straight into FT8 and didn't look back. Within days, he'd worked all states, then DXCC. He'd bag a few rare ones over a light lunch, then pat his laptop on the back and congratulate his software app for its near-mythical ability to extract weak signals out of noise.
>
> Within weeks, he'd mastered everything there was to know about this glorious new hobby.
>
> Point. Click.
>
> In this new world order, those of us who took the longer, slower path to ionospheric enlightenment -- and who still occasionally enjoy making waves by hand -- often fail to explain why.
>
> I had failed to explain it to my friend. Even as hints of his boredom crept in, creating an opening, the best argument I'd made for trying CW was that he could do it without a computer. Coming in a weak second was the notion that CW was the original digital mode. For obvious reasons, I didn't bother with the classic argument about CW's signal-to-noise advantage over SSB.
>
> I had all but given up.
>
> Then, in a moment of delayed clarity, I decided on a different approach. I invited him to a weekday brunch. A bit of an escape. He willingly took the bait.
>
> On the appointed day, arriving at his workplace, I bypassed the lobby's glistening elevators and climbed the four flights of stairs to his office. I insisted we take the stairs down, too.
>
> "Why?" he asked. "And how'd you get up here so fast?"
>
> I pointed out that I always chose stairs, when possible. That's why I wasn't out of breath. We hustled down, jockeying for position, and emerged on the ground floor invigorated by the effort.
>
> "So, where are we going?" he asked. We'd been to every overrated twenty-dollar burger venue at least twice.
>
> I replied that we'd be going someplace we'd never tried. My kitchen.
>
> When we arrived, I put him to work chopping onions and broccoli and squeezing oranges while I whipped eggs into a froth and grated Swiss cheese. We ate our omelettes outside, in full sun and a cool breeze.
>
> "What's for desert?" he asked. "Isn't there a frozen yogurt place a two-minute drive from here?"
>
> I had something else in mind. Back in the kitchen, I handed him a water bottle, then strapped on a small pack I'd prepared earlier.
>
> We walked a mile or so through my neighborhood, admiring the houses' varied architecture, ending up (as planned) at a local park festooned with blackberry bushes. The most accessible branches had been picked clean, but with teamwork and persistence we were able to gather several large handfuls of fat, ripe berries, which we devoured on the spot.
>
> We'd been poked and scratched but didn't care.
>
> "Doesn't brunch usually end with champagne?" he wondered aloud, admiring his wounds.
>
> Not this time. I pulled out two bottles of craft beer that I'd obtained from a neighbor in trade for repairing his ancient home stereo. Carlos had spent years crafting an American pilsner to die for, sweating every detail, including iconic, hand-painted labels.
>
> My friend accepted the bottle, then tried in vain to remove the cap. Not a twist-off.
>
> "Opener?" he said.
>
> I handed him a small pocket knife, an antique without specialty blades. He soon discovered it could not be used to remove the cap directly. He looked at me with a bemused expression, no doubt wondering what I had up my sleeve this time.
>
> I pointed out that we were surrounded by white oaks, a species known for its hard wood. He got the message, smiled, and began hunting. Within seconds he'd collected a small fallen branch. I watched as he used the knife to fashion a few inches of it into a passable bottle opener. We popped the caps, toasted his new-found skill, and traded stories of our misspent youths.
>
> "Oh, one more thing," I said.
>
> I pulled a KX2 out of my pack, along with two lengths of wire. Of course he knew everything there was to know about Elecraft, and me, so he wasn't surprised when I also pulled out the rig's attachable keyer paddle. We threw one wire in the closest tree and laid the other on the ground.
>
> He didn't have to ask whether I'd brought a laptop.
>
> We listened to CW signals up and down 20 meters, which was open to Europe at the time. As he tuned in each station, I copied for him using pencil and paper. He'd learned Morse code, but only at very slow speeds.
>
> After making a contact, I set the internal keyer speed to 10 words per minute and dialed power output to zero, for practice purposes, then showed him how to use the paddle. He smiled as he got the hang of it. Sending the full alphabet was a challenge, but he got there. The KX2 decoded and displayed his keying, providing confirmation.
>
> We'd blown through his allotted lunch break by a factor of three, so it was time to go. We coiled up the antenna wires, packed up, and walked back. As I drove him back to his employer, we made plans to get together again for a weekend hike.
>
> I could have just dropped him off, but we went back into the lobby together. Out of habit, he stopped in front of the elevator. Then he looked up.
>
> "OK," he said. "I get it. This CW thing. It's slow, it's hard to do well, and it takes years of practice."
>
> "Like hunting for your own food, or carving your own tools," I added.
>
> "Or cooking from scratch. Or brewing your own beer. Building your own radio. And you use more of your senses. Not just your eyes, but your ears. Your sense of touch."
>
> I nodded. Listening. Feeling. That was the radio I'd grown up with.
>
> "Of course it's harder to work DX with CW than with FT8," I reminded him, playing devil's advocate.
>
> "Is that what matters, though?" he asked.
>
> A longer discussion for another day.
>
> "Your call," I said.
>
> He gripped my shoulder and smiled, then reached toward the elevator's glowing, ivory colored button, framed by polished brass.
>
> The path most taken.
>
> Point. Click.
>
> "On second thought," he said, "I'll take the stairs."
>
> * * *
>
> Wayne,
> N6KR
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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