stranger than real life
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When studying the HAM workbooks from ARRL, I found a few inconsistency in statements, example one of many: Is there a reason why HAM's use 40 meters (or other band) at 7.125 kHz (or other frequency) then say the antenna should be 34.5 feet
would it not be easier to keep everything in metric _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: stranger than real life
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:56:55 -0400 "mc" <[hidden email]> writes:
"When studying the HAM workbooks from ARRL, I found a few inconsistency in statements, example one of many: Is there a reason why HAM's use 40 meters (or other band) at 7.125 kHz (or other frequency) then say the antenna should be 34.5 feet" ========== Since day one, the bands have been described by their wavelength in meters, hence "40 meters". "7.125 kHz" is clearly a typo error. It should say "7.125 MHz". For some years now, ARRL publications have gone metric. Antenna lengths given as "34.5 feet" would have "10.5m" in parentheses immediatelly after it. 73, de Earl, K6SE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by mc-20
Like it or not, the US is still using feet and yards, not centimeters
and meters. The shortwave bands have traditionally been specified using the metric system. However, we don't typically have meter sticks handy. So if the ARRL would say to use an antenna 10.52 meters long, the first thing most hams would have to do is convert to feet. So why not specify it in feet to start with? It's inconsistent, but sometimes handy to mix units. Just my opinion, John AA0VE mc wrote: >When studying the HAM workbooks from ARRL, I found a few inconsistency in statements, example one of many: Is there a reason why HAM's use 40 meters (or other band) at 7.125 kHz (or other frequency) then say the antenna should be 34.5 feet > >would it not be easier to keep everything in metric > >_______________________________________________ >Elecraft mailing list >Post to: [hidden email] >You must be a subscriber to post to the list. >Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > >Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm >Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > > > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Jun 11, 2005, at 5:12 PM, John R. Lonigro wrote: So if the ARRL would say to use an antenna 10.52 meters long, the first thing most hams would have to do is convert to feet. So why not specify it in feet to start with? It's inconsistent, but sometimes handy to mix units. ______________________ Mixing units is not always benign. "September 1999: NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation..... " 73 - Steve WB6RSE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
RE: stranger than real life
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In reply to this post by John Lonigro
"mc" wrote:
>would it not be easier to keep everything in metric --------------------------------------------------- I've been a technical and scientific writer since the early 1960's. In all that time I've worked in metric right here in the USA. It's what most of the engineering/scientific community lives by. The simple fact is the STANDARD AMERICAN system of weights and measures is METRIC! It has been so since the middle 1800's when our Congress adopted the metric system as our official system. What they did not do was to make it illegal to continue to use the clumsy, crazy "American/English" system. (40 lashes for each of 'em with a wet noodle!) So, stubborn Yanks that we are, we still measure by the King's thumb, etc. >From time to time some numbskull tries to mix the two. The most famous case is when someone got confused between the two while they were configuring the main mirror for the Hubble telescope and produced a billion dollar blunder that was only solved much later by some equally expensive correction optics. It didn't help that QA missed the error too. My XYL is Dutch, so we live and cook and work in Metric here in Oregon country, and it's great. Still, I am reminded of just how powerful early training can be. For example, I know exactly what I'm doing when I set my soldering iron at 400C and what to expect if I touch something that's 50C, but I still have to stop and think about whether I'll need a jacket if it's 15C out. I was raised perceiving the weather in Fahrenheit, and after all these years I still have to stop and think for a moment. That's a clue about just how powerful early training can be. Ron AC7AC _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 17:44:53 -0700, "Ron D'Eau Claire"
<[hidden email]> wrote: >The simple fact is the STANDARD AMERICAN system of weights and measures is >METRIC! It has been so since the middle 1800's when our Congress adopted the >metric system as our official system. What they did not do was to make it >illegal to continue to use the clumsy, crazy "American/English" system. (40 >lashes for each of 'em with a wet noodle!) So, stubborn Yanks that we are, >we still measure by the King's thumb, etc. The first segment of my right index finger is one inch. My right foot, approximates one foot, my spread arms extend one yard. To replace those with arbitrary measurements (simply to make the math easier?) seems absurd to me. I just bought a calculator. _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:36 PM, Matt Osborn wrote: To replace those with arbitrary measurements (simply to make the math easier?) seems absurd to me. I just bought a calculator. ________ And what happens when your battery goes dead? ;-) 73 - Steve WB6RSE _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by mc-20
They call it the 'English' system, but even the English folks now measure
things in the metric system - only we Americans are the holdouts to the more convenient and sane metric system. For myself, I have a good concept of how long a foot (or yard, or inch) is, and I don't have that same familiarity with a meter or centimeter even though I have worked with metric units in engineering circles for over 30 years of my life. The situation will only change if metric is legislated, and the entire machine tool industry completes the conversion that was talked about back in the late 60s and early 70s - it never fully happened, so we must live with a mixed system until something BIG happens - like govermental decree to eliminate the old system. I must still have 'English' and metric size wrenches in my toolbox, and my toolboxes would be much lighter with only the metric sizes --- Long Sigh ---- I don't expect resolution in my remaining lifetime. 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > > When studying the HAM workbooks from ARRL, I found a few > inconsistency in statements, example one of many: Is there a > reason why HAM's use 40 meters (or other band) at 7.125 kHz (or > other frequency) then say the antenna should be 34.5 feet > > would it not be easier to keep everything in metric > > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.8 - Release Date: 6/11/2005 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Steve Lawrence-2
> To replace those with arbitrary measurements (simply to make
> the math easier?) seems absurd to me. I just bought a > calculator. ________ A group of French scientists decided that 1/1,000,000th of the distance from the north pole to the equator would be the new standard for all of Europe. I presume this was NOT arbitrary... > And what happens when your battery goes dead? ;-) I find that a pencil an paper can still be used to find answers... Quote from the July 1971 issue of "Datamation" "The computer is down!!.... does anyone here remember how to think??" Dave KK7SS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
Don,
As a lover and rebuilder of old cars, I find I have ASF, BSF, Whitworth, BA, Metric and adjustable wrenches (spanners). Not to mention Bristol keys, Torx wrenches and other efforts at 'modernisation' But my garage would seem a lonely place without them :-)) Only Metric??? Heavens forbid.... I might find the right wrench on the first try... unforgiveable!!! Dave KK7SS _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Matt Osborn
Matt Osborn wrote:
> To replace those with arbitrary measurements (simply to make the math > easier?) seems absurd to me. I just bought a calculator. Not to mention that the math is not always easier. 12, the number of inches in a foot, is evenly divided by 2, 3, 4, and 6; while 10 only has 2 and 5. 36, the number of inches in a yard, is evenly divided by 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, and 18; but 100, the number of centimeters in a meter is only divided by 2, 5, 10, 25, and 50. -- 73 Vic, K2VCO Fresno, CA http://www.qsl.net/k2vco _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
> For myself, I have a good concept of how long a foot (or yard, or
> inch) is, and I don't have that same familiarity with a meter or > centimeter even though I have worked with metric units in engineering > circles for over 30 years of my life. Hmmm ... I think everyone's experience is different. In the mid 60's, in another part of the world from where I live now, everything was metric and I learned it. I really didn't care about what was divisible by what (although I graduated in Math, and you'd think I would be), but ever since and still now, I tend to think in metric terms and convert the other way. My speedometer reads in MPH, but it also has KPH. Ask me how far to the tracks of the Transcontintal Railroad from our house, and I'd probably give you the answer in approximate meters. I know what a meter is, I know a kilogram, and it does work. I wonder how much it matters how it was defined and re-defined, the metric system is the worldwide standard, and we hams have been using it for years. YMMV Fred K6DGW Auburn CA CM98lw _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Steve Lawrence-2
> Mixing units is not always benign.
> "September 1999: NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a > Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement > while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for > a key spacecraft operation..... " I would argue this is an error in communication or specification. It could happen if one team used inches and another used feet. > The first segment of my right index finger is one inch. My right > foot, approximates one foot, my spread arms extend one yard. The distance spanned by your outspread arms approximates your height. You have huge feet for a "little person". > They call it the 'English' system, but even the English folks now measure > things in the metric system - only we Americans are the holdouts to the > more convenient and sane metric system. Speed limits in England are in miles per hour, and distances on highway signs are in miles. And they drive on the left. They're more screwed up than we are. Craig NZ0R K1 #1966 K2 #4941 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Steve Lawrence-2
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 18:38:04 -0700, Steve Lawrence
<[hidden email]> wrote: > >On Jun 11, 2005, at 6:36 PM, Matt Osborn wrote: > >To replace those with arbitrary measurements (simply to make the math >easier?) seems absurd to me. I just bought a calculator. >________ > >And what happens when your battery goes dead? ;-) > >73 - Steve WB6RSE > Measure things with my finger, arm and feet? _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-3
Don, I don't think the metric system is sane!!! I have found out what 5 and
8 meters is when it comes to the length of antennas but I now have the conversion bookmarked in favorites!! Paul Gates Elecraft K1 #231 XG1 [hidden email] "An idle mind is the devil's workshop." And the devil's name is Alzheimer's! ----- Original Message ----- From: "W3FPR - Don Wilhelm" <[hidden email]> To: "mc" <[hidden email]>; "elecraft group" <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 10:10 PM Subject: RE: [Elecraft] stranger than real life > They call it the 'English' system, but even the English folks now measure > things in the metric system - only we Americans are the holdouts to the > more > convenient and sane metric system. > > For myself, I have a good concept of how long a foot (or yard, or inch) > is, > and I don't have that same familiarity with a meter or centimeter even > though I have worked with metric units in engineering circles for over 30 > years of my life. The situation will only change if metric is legislated, > and the entire machine tool industry completes the conversion that was > talked about back in the late 60s and early 70s - it never fully happened, > so we must live with a mixed system until something BIG happens - like > govermental decree to eliminate the old system. I must still have > 'English' > and metric size wrenches in my toolbox, and my toolboxes would be much > lighter with only the metric sizes --- Long Sigh ---- I don't expect > resolution in my remaining lifetime. > > 73, > Don W3FPR > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > When studying the HAM workbooks from ARRL, I found a few > > inconsistency in statements, example one of many: Is there a > > reason why HAM's use 40 meters (or other band) at 7.125 kHz (or > > other frequency) then say the antenna should be 34.5 feet > > > > would it not be easier to keep everything in metric > > > > > -- > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.8 - Release Date: 6/11/2005 > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
> Not to mention that the math is not always easier. 12, the number of
> inches in a foot, is evenly divided by 2, 3, 4, and 6; while 10 only > has 2 and 5. 36, the number of inches in a yard, is evenly divided by > 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 12, and 18; but 100, the number of centimeters in a > meter is only divided by 2, 5, 10, 25, and 50. I realize that 10 fingers and 10 toes goes back to the beginning of creation, but when it comes to measuring things you have to give some credit to the Summerians and Babylonians and their sexagesimal (base 60) system on which practically every system of measurement other than the relatively recent and mathematically contrived metric system is based. There are 60s, multiples of 60s, and factors of 60s everywhere: 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour, 24 hours in a day, about 30 days in a month, 12 months in a year, 360 degrees in a circle, 60 minutes in a degree, 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, 6000 feet in a nautical mile, 12 pennies in a shilling, etc. A lot of this stuff is 4000 years old. A system of thinking doesn't last that long without some inherent merit. Tens are nice because we've all been taught a number system based on 10. But there's something beautiful about numbers with so many natural divisors (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 all evenly divide 60). It seems almost "handed down by God" as opposed to the 10-based metric system which has the feeling of "invented by humans". This "inventedness" of the metric system is what makes it seem unnatural to me. OTOH I have to admire these simple equalities: One milliliter of water weighs one gram and occupies one square centimeter. I don't think about converting between systems as much as using the appropriate system for the context. For example, when I'm flying my airplane I measure distance in nautical miles and speed in nautical miles per hour (knots). It's awkward to translate to statute miles and MPH, but that's not the reason I don't do it. The reason I don't convert is that it's not necessary (unless I'm trying to tell a passenger how fast we're going, in which case I read the MPH scale on the airspeed indicator). In the airplane I measure outside air temperature in Celsius but cylinder head temperature in Fahrenheit. When I put up a 40M dipole, I measure its length in feet. No big deal. "Meters" describes wavelength and "feet" describes wire length. While the two are related they're for all practical purposes measurements of two different things, at least the way I look at it. 40M is the setting on the band switch on my radio. 66 feet is the approximate length of my antenna. I don't see the conflict. I don't see the necessity of adopting one world standard of measurement any more than I see the necessity of adopting Esperanto as the Global Language. One chooses one's measuring system by context, just as one chooses the language in which to speak by the context of the conversation. Craig NZ0R K1 #1966 K2 #4941 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: stranger than real life
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Craig, you wrote:
I realize that 10 fingers and 10 toes goes back to the beginning of creation, but when it comes to measuring things you have to give some credit to the Summerians and Babylonians and their sexagesimal (base 60) system on which practically every system of measurement other than the relatively recent and mathematically contrived metric system is based. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- And don't forget the old baboons who appear to be able to count to 6. As a schoolboy in South Africa, I saw much evidence of this after being put wise by an old farmer. But the old baboons could not get their minds around the zero. Crocodiles appear to be able to manage 3, but I never discussed the maths with them. Being stuck with metric and IMPERIAL (!!), I use both like many folk. For me metric is much "easier" when working with antennas or even PCB layouts. I draw the line at roods, chains and such! 73, Geoff. GM4ESD _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by mc-20
On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 19:56:55 -0400, mc wrote:
> When studying the HAM workbooks from ARRL, I found a few inconsistency in > statements, example one of many: Is there a reason why HAM's use 40 meters > (or other band) at 7.125 kHz (or other frequency) then say the antenna should > be 34.5 feet > > would it not be easier to keep everything in metric > > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com What I find strange is that, although it took England a long time to go metric (and the USA even longer), I have never seen a Broadcast Radio dial calibrated in feet and inches ! 73 Stewart G3RXQ _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO
Vic,
But what about those fractional parts of inches? <G> How many folks have a good mental picture of how big 9/64 inch is (clearance size for a #6 screw)? Most values can be expressed with decimals to any degree of precision desired, so the factors in either system do not matter much to me. With the metric system, decimal values are normal and fractions are rare. Decimal values enter nicely into a calculator. I do have a special fractional calculator in the woodworking shop, but entering the fractions is a chore compared to entering a decimal string. 73, Don W3FPR > -----Original Message----- > > Not to mention that the math is not always easier. 12, the number of > inches in a foot, is evenly divided by 2, 3, 4, and 6; while 10 only has > 2 and 5. 36, the number of inches in a yard, is evenly divided by 2, 3, > 4, 6, 9, 12, and 18; but 100, the number of centimeters in a meter is > only divided by 2, 5, 10, 25, and 50. > > -- > 73 > Vic, K2VCO > Fresno, CA > http://www.qsl.net/k2vco > _______________________________________________ > Elecraft mailing list > Post to: [hidden email] > You must be a subscriber to post to the list. > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft > > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.8 - Release Date: 6/11/2005 > No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.6.8 - Release Date: 6/11/2005 _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
Re: stranger than real life
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What are kids taught in US schools these days?
In the UK, it's unlikely that anybody under the age of 25 or so knows what an inch, foot, yard, pound or ounce is. -- <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> Nigel A. Gunn. 59 Beadlemead, Milton Keynes, MK6 4HF, England. Tel +44 (0)1908 604004 e-mail [hidden email] or [hidden email] www http://www.ngunn.net or http://www.ngunn.demon.co.uk Amateur radio stations G8IFF, KC8NHF Member of AMSAT-UK #182, ARRL, GQRP Club, QRPARCI, SOC #548 RAYNET Flying Pig #385, Dayton ARA #2128, AMSAT-NA LM-1691, <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> _______________________________________________ Elecraft mailing list Post to: [hidden email] You must be a subscriber to post to the list. Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.): http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com |
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