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Re: dB Changes, Loudness, and Signal to Noise Ratio

Posted by Guy, K2AV on Dec 15, 2009; 10:29pm
URL: http://elecraft.85.s1.nabble.com/150-watt-boots-for-160m-tp4151943p4172612.html

I'm sorry, but didn't you just prove that it took over 3 dB to make
the signal generally copyable from possibly copyable?  Potentially
copiable at 27 uW (because one did), generally copyable at 80 uW, a
difference of 4.7 dB.

Makes me wonder if a couple of threads on the merits of dB aren't
being written in two languages, e.g. just barely copiable (by at least
someone), and separately, generally copyable.

73, Guy.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 4:33 PM, Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> There was an interesting series of low power beacon receiving tests
> conducted in December 2004 through January 2005 by N2XE.  John sent a beacon
> ID message including a unique code word at various power levels on 80m over
> a several day period.  You had to correctly copy each code word correctly to
> verify reception.  There's a lot of documentation on the Topband and QRP-L
> lists over that period, but here's a brief summary of the results:
>
> 80 uW - 8 stations correctly copied.
> 40 uW - 1 station
> 27 uW - 1 station
> 20 uW - 0 stations.
>
> The power difference in dB at each succeeding lower level was (top to
> bottom):
>
> -3 dB (i.e. the 80 uW to 40 uW test)
> -1.7 dB
> -1.3 dB
>
> I copied the beacon at both the 40 uW and 27 uW levels but could not
> decipher the code word at 20 uW even though I could detect presence of the
> signal.  Unfortunately N2XE ran 20 uW only briefly (because at that point
> nobody else was hearing it).  I believe I could have copied it if he had run
> it as long as he ran the other tests.
>
> The point of this is that small changes in dB do indeed make a difference in
> the ear/brain's ability to **copy** weak signals in noise, which is really
> what the discussion is about.  Tom W8JI added the following interesting
> observation (which I also noticed and agree with):
>
> "Now for the curious effect I observed.
>
> While I didn't spend a large amount of time listening to 80
> and I never listened to 40 at all, I did notice one thing
> that I found interesting. Listening to the very low power
> transmissions on 80 meters I observed a very pronounced
> signal peak just before sunrise. The effect was very much
> like the effect called "search light" or "spot light"
> propagation. While the signal was largely in the noise and
> unreadable from 0900 Z  until 1120 Z, I observed a very
> clear "strong" peak between 1125 and 1135 Z where the signal
> was the equivalent of  about a "559" or better DX report. By
> 1138 copy was back to nil with an increase that provided a
> short 2 minute long readable signal starting at 1143 Z .
> After 1145 Z that was it for the signal. I never really
> noticed this effect over the same path when power levels
> were higher and signal levels stronger, although I'm sure
> the path loss went through similar variations. This is why
> even one dB sounds like a large change when signals are in
> the noise, and is meaningless with "579" signals."
>
> http://lists.contesting.com/archives//html/Topband/2005-01/msg00023.html
>
> 73,  Bill
>
>
>
> --
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