Login  Register

Re: Comparison: K3 and SDR 5000A

Posted by Richard Smith-23 on Oct 10, 2007; 11:08pm
URL: http://elecraft.85.s1.nabble.com/Comparison-K3-and-SDR-5000A-tp454268p454281.html

Lyle,

I don't believe you can get something for nothing.  The sample-in/sample-out
may work at steady state, but if you use an FIR filter, it still takes a
number of samples and time to fill the filter pipeline, as well as empty it.
My DSP may be a bit rusty, but I believe that the edges of a CW signal (the
no-signal to signal transition and the signal to no-signal transition) still
takes time to propogate through the FIR filter, and appears as a signal
delayed in time at the output.   What is it about the K3 architecture that
eliminates this latency?  How many taps does the FIR filter have that is
used in the K3 for a 30 WPM QSK mode, and what is the sample rate of the A/D
in that mode?

73,

Rich W1EZ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lyle Johnson" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Comparison: K3 and SDR 5000A


>> As I understand it, latency is no longer an issue.  Latency issues with
>> the early versions of PowerSDR and the SDR-1000 have been resolved.  That
>> being said, signal processing latency is a fact of life for all digital
>> radios. We are talking microseconds,
>
> I beg to differ.
>
> Latency (delay) in a DSP-based radio (or SDR, if you prefer) is caused by
> several things.
>
> The one we can't get rid of is the filter delay.  By making "shorter"
> filters (fewer taps), we can reduce the delay through the filter, but at
> the expense of filter performance.  We get wider skirts, less ultimate
> rejection, more passband ripple, or some combination of these three
> factors.
>
> However, DSP can be applied in many ways.  One sure way to increase
> latency is by processing the incoming signal in blocks.  This means you
> collect a certain number of samples, then process them all at once while
> collecting the next block, etc.  PC implementations of DSP typically use
> this method.
>
> Another method is to process the signal after each sample.  This
> eliminates the block delay.  This is how the K3 processes signals.
>
> As an example, let's consider an SDR using 2048-sample blocks (common in
> the SDR world) and 96 kHz sampling.  It will take (2048/96,000 =) 22
> milliseconds to acquire this block.  This is 22 ms more delay, or latency,
> than a K3 will have, assuming similar delays in each radio for the
> filter(s).
>
> For a real world example, I connected an SDR-14 receiver (with associated
> dual core 3 GHz PC) to the IF output of my K3.  I then tuned in an SSB
> signal and listened to it through the K3's speaker as well as demodulating
> it and listening through the PC's audio system.
>
> The audio coming from the PC was very noticeably delayed versus the audio
> from the K3.
>
> This delay or latency may not be an issue in all cases.  But in come
> common operational scenarios, like QSK CW or SSB using "syllabic" VOX, it
> can be critical.  By paying close attention to such latency issues in the
> architecture of the K3, we are able to provide QSK CW operation at speeds
> well over 30 WPM without "reducing the taps" in the filters or otherwise
> compromising the performance of the radio.  The 22 ms additional delay
> cited in the example above would kill QSK performance.
>
> Latency is just one of many considerations that arise when comparing
> radios, architectures, and one's own needs and preferences.
>
> 73,
>
> Lyle KK7P
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com 

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
 http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft   

Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com