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1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

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Mike Miller-14

1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for the K3?
Trying to decide which one to get..

I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
work CW rarely....

Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3 kc..from the frequency I am listening on....

any thoughts? on what filters to get..

Mike Miller KA5SMA
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Bill Maddock-2

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

As a contestor and DXer taht has used 1.8 and 2.1 filters - I prefer the 2.1 - I had a kenwood 1.8 and it was just 2 tinny sounding. I have used cascaded 2.1 Inrads in my TS-850s and it was good enough - I have
a 6 khz the factory 2.7 khz and the 2.1 khz in my K3 - most the time
I run my bandwidth at 2.8 which is just above thw 2.7 and it uses the
6 khz + dsp the audio sounds much nicer - but that it for uncrowded bands
The 2.1 is tight and with the dsp it is just fine - when I crank down on the dsp bandwidth control I have to use the shift knob to get the audio to
sound better. I don't really think that you would like a 1.8 the 2.1 is tight enough! Hope this helps

73,

Bill N4ZI www.n4zi.net/Home.htm

--- On Fri, 7/11/08, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Mike Miller <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Elecraft] 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:51 PM
> Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for the
> K3?
> Trying to decide which one to get..
>
> I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
> work CW rarely....
>
>
> Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
> I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3 kc..from
> the frequency I am listening on....
>
> any thoughts? on what filters to get..
>
> Mike Miller KA5SMA
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

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N5GE

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by Mike Miller-14

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:51:24 -0500, "Mike Miller" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for the K3?
>Trying to decide which one to get..
>
>I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
>work CW rarely....
>
>
>Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
>I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3 kc..from the frequency I am listening on....
>
>any thoughts? on what filters to get..
>
>Mike Miller KA5SMA

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Fern Rivard

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

Hi Tom:

I have the 2.1 filter with my K3 and it does sound a bit narrow compared to the 2.1 khz filter that the collins s-line used for years so I wouldn't bother with the 1.8 khz filter. I've tried a 1.8 filter in an Icom IC-706 and did not like it either.
Just my 2 cents worth from Fern VE7GZ with K3 #412

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <[hidden email]>
To: "Mike Miller" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:51:24 -0500, "Mike Miller" <[hidden email]> wrote:

[snip]

I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the years and found that I
rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too narrow for SSB, making it
sound tinny to me.

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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Bill W4ZV

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by N5GE

Tom Childers, N5GE wrote

I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the years and found that I
rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too narrow for SSB, making it
sound tinny to me.

I'm copying this from the Yahoo Group list because someone recently asked a similar question.

**************************************************
Before you give up on the 1.8k filter, be sure to try the following:

1. Tune in a station exactly using a wide filter.
2. Adjust WIDTH = 1800 (or less).
3. Adjust either SHIFT (my preference) or HI/LO CUT for best audio.

With proper adjustment you can get good intelligibility down to 1500
Hz. I believe my SHIFT setting is ~200 at ~1800 BW and goes up to
~400 at ~1500 BW, but let your own ears be your guide.

I learned this back in my FT-1000MP days and it's absolutely
necessary for using any rig at low bandwidths on SSB.

I would only recommend a 1.8k for someone interested in contesting or
perhaps DX-ing on the low bands. Unless you have extremely strong
stations nearby, the standard 2.7k will still work fine and you can
always narrow the DSP filter to <1800 when necessary.

73, Bill

Craig-89

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by N5GE

I find that the 1.8khz filter is very useful for weak signal work on SSB. My QTH is noise free and i can routinely copy weak stations in the noise floor that cannot be heard on a wider bandwidth filters.

I find the same with the K3 and the 2.1khz filter especially when narrowed down to 1.8khz DSP bandwidth. Weak signals just seem to pop out of the background.

The only issue that i am having right now, which i am still trying to resolve with my K3 is that the IF shift appears to be off center frequency. I routinely have to shift the FC for maximum readability. I do have the filter FC offsets stored in the filter memories for now on my K3.

I have the 1.8khz filter on order and will compare it to the 2.1khz filter shortly. I dont have any issues with copying SSB in the 1.8khz filter bandwidth, i find that even a 1.5khz filter like that on the K2 to be useful. I personally believe that you do compromise your SSB stations weak signal capabilities by not having narrow SSB filters.

Wide filter bandwidths can becoming addictive and there is no doubt that it is pleasing to your ears. However if you a Dx'er or contester thats not what the games about.

73
Craig
VK3HE

--- On Fri, 7/11/08, Tom Childers, N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Tom Childers, N5GE <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter
> To: "Mike Miller" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 8:17 PM
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:51:24 -0500, "Mike Miller"
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for
> the K3?
> >Trying to decide which one to get..
> >
> >I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
> >work CW rarely....
> >
> >
> >Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
> >I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3
> kc..from the frequency I am listening on....
> >
> >any thoughts? on what filters to get..
> >
> >Mike Miller KA5SMA
> [snip]
>
> I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the
> years and found that I
> rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too
> narrow for SSB, making it
> sound tinny to me.
>
> Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq
>
> "Those who would give up
> Essential Liberty to
> purchase a little Temporary
> Safety deserve neither
> Liberty nor Safety"
>
> An excerpt from a letter
> written in 1755 from the
> Assembly to the Governor
> of Pennsylvania.
>
> Support the entire Constitution, not
> just the parts you like.
>
> http://www.n5ge.com
> http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Bill VanAlstyne W5WVO

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

From: "Craig" <[hidden email]>

> Wide filter bandwidths can becoming addictive
> and there is no doubt that it is pleasing to your
> ears. However if you a Dx'er or contester thats
> not what the games about.

Well said, Craig. You don't use a 1.8 kHz filter because it sounds good! You
use it because you can't pull the station through using a wider bandwidth
due to close-in QRM and/or weak signal strength. You choose the bandwidth
necessary to copy the station you're trying to work.

If you're a casual operator or ragchewer, not really into contesting, DXing,
or weak-signal work on VHF, the 1.8 and 2.3 kHz filters are probably not for
you.

As I write this, I'm in QSO with a station in northern New York on
double-hop sporadic-E on 6 meters. He's getting weaker as the band changes,
and there is a lot of adjacent QRM. I'm now running 1.5 kHz bandwidth with
FC set to 1.00. Solid copy all the way, just signed with him and completed
the QSO before the band took us out.

Love this radio!

Bill W5WVO

>
> 73
> Craig
> VK3HE
>
>
> --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Tom Childers, N5GE <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Tom Childers, N5GE <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter
> > To: "Mike Miller" <[hidden email]>
> > Cc: [hidden email]
> > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 8:17 PM
> > On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:51:24 -0500, "Mike Miller"
> > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > >Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for
> > the K3?
> > >Trying to decide which one to get..
> > >
> > >I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
> > >work CW rarely....
> > >
> > >
> > >Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
> > >I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3
> > kc..from the frequency I am listening on....
> > >
> > >any thoughts? on what filters to get..
> > >
> > >Mike Miller KA5SMA
> > [snip]
> >
> > I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the
> > years and found that I
> > rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too
> > narrow for SSB, making it
> > sound tinny to me.
> >
> > Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq
> >
> > "Those who would give up
> > Essential Liberty to
> > purchase a little Temporary
> > Safety deserve neither
> > Liberty nor Safety"
> >
> > An excerpt from a letter
> > written in 1755 from the
> > Assembly to the Governor
> > of Pennsylvania.
> >
> > Support the entire Constitution, not
> > just the parts you like.
> >
> > http://www.n5ge.com
> > http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Post to: [hidden email]
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> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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Brett Howard

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by N5GE

I find that using the shift control and sending things south a tad can
help with this problem Even if you don't have a 1.8K filter try that
with just a DSP filter width of 1.8 and use the shift and turn it
downward until it sounds good. Then you can tune around the band like
that and when they sound right you're pretty decently well centered up
on the other station.

~Brett

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 19:17 -0500, Tom Childers, N5GE wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 14:51:24 -0500, "Mike Miller" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for the K3?
> >Trying to decide which one to get..
> >
> >I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
> >work CW rarely....
> >
> >
> >Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
> >I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3 kc..from the frequency I am listening on....
> >
> >any thoughts? on what filters to get..
> >
> >Mike Miller KA5SMA
> [snip]
>
> I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the years and found that I
> rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too narrow for SSB, making it
> sound tinny to me.
>
> Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq
>
> "Those who would give up
> Essential Liberty to
> purchase a little Temporary
> Safety deserve neither
> Liberty nor Safety"
>
> An excerpt from a letter
> written in 1755 from the
> Assembly to the Governor
> of Pennsylvania.
>
> Support the entire Constitution, not
> just the parts you like.
>
> http://www.n5ge.com
> http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Brett Howard

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by Bill Maddock-2

Personally I really liked the 1.8K filter in my rig during FD. The
bands were packed and they'd allow you to squeeze into the tightest of
places and take a run freq that you know the guy above and below you is
being bugged by people calling you back but you can pick them out of the
muck like magic. With judicious use of the shift knob you can center
around the frequencies needed for intelligibility and you get all the
frequencies that you need and ignore those that you don't. But you do
need to be a lil ready to use RIT though..

~Brett

On Fri, 2008-07-11 at 15:30 -0700, Bill Maddock wrote:

> As a contestor and DXer taht has used 1.8 and 2.1 filters - I prefer the 2.1 - I had a kenwood 1.8 and it was just 2 tinny sounding. I have used cascaded 2.1 Inrads in my TS-850s and it was good enough - I have
> a 6 khz the factory 2.7 khz and the 2.1 khz in my K3 - most the time
> I run my bandwidth at 2.8 which is just above thw 2.7 and it uses the
> 6 khz + dsp the audio sounds much nicer - but that it for uncrowded bands
> The 2.1 is tight and with the dsp it is just fine - when I crank down on the dsp bandwidth control I have to use the shift knob to get the audio to
> sound better. I don't really think that you would like a 1.8 the 2.1 is tight enough! Hope this helps
>
> 73,
>
> Bill N4ZI www.n4zi.net/Home.htm
>
>
> --- On Fri, 7/11/08, Mike Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Mike Miller <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: [Elecraft] 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Date: Friday, July 11, 2008, 2:51 PM
> > Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for the
> > K3?
> > Trying to decide which one to get..
> >
> > I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
> > work CW rarely....
> >
> >
> > Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
> > I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3 kc..from
> > the frequency I am listening on....
> >
> > any thoughts? on what filters to get..
> >
> > Mike Miller KA5SMA
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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Ed Muns, W0YK

RE: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by Mike Miller-14

> Anyone have experience with 1.8 and 2.1 kc filters for the K3?
> Trying to decide which one to get..
>
> I am a DXer exclusively......not a contester...
> work CW rarely....
>
>
> Does the audio from 1.8 sound too pinched....?
> I just dont want to hear a 59+10 signal that is 3 kc..from
> the frequency I am listening on....
>
> any thoughts? on what filters to get..

Don't commit to any optional filters until you actually use your K3 and
determine what bandwidths work best for your preferred operating scenarios.
The stock 2.7 kHz filter provides excellent roofing filter protection for
the DSP which is where you set your receive bandwidth. Try different SSB
receive bandwidths and see what you like. I almost always use 1.6 kHz for
SSB and do not find it at all "tinny" or "too narrow" in the K3 as some
other replies are indicating. In most other radios, 1.6 kHz far too narrow,
at least for me to copy easily. The K3, however, sounds beautiful at these
narrow bandwidths. Don't make a K3 crystal filter decision based on
experience with other radios, especially someone else's experience with
other radios!

The easiest way to narrow the bandwidth on SSB is to reduce HI CUT. Until
you reach a bandwidth of about 1.5 kHz, you don't need to adjust LO CUT or
anything else. This reduces bandwidth while moving Fc down with it.
Effectively, adjusting only HI CUT simultaneously adjusts WIDTH and SHIFT
ideally for SSB. This is far easier than adjusting WIDTH, then SHIFT to get
the sound right. You can slide between 2.0 and 2.7 kHz to see how narrow
you can go for the sound you want. So, assuming you have the stock 2.7 kHz
crystal filter, and have told the K3 it is 2.7 kHz wide, start there and
reduce HI CUT from 2.7 kHz to 2 kHz. LO CUT will remain at 200 Hz and you
will end up at a bandwidth of 1.8 kHz. I think you will find that it sounds
fine. I prefer these narrow bandwidths because they take out the highs
between 2 and 3 kHz. I think this is more intelligible (in the K3) for
communications. So-called "hi-fidelity" is something else.

Once you get a feel for the narrow SSB receive bandwidth you like, then
select a crystal filter that is outside that bandwidth, if you are worried
about strong nearby signals interfering with the DSP's ability to provide
the listening bandwidth you want. The Elecraft/INRAD 1.8 kHz crystal filter
is actually about 1.9 kHz at the -6 dB points, so it won't affect your DSP
bandwidths much at 1.7 kHz or below. If that's too narrow for you, then
consider the 2.1 which will allow you to get to 2.0 kHz or lower since it is
actually about 2.2 kHz.

73,
Ed - W0YK

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N5GE

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 17:50:18 -0700 (PDT), Bill W4ZV <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
>
>
>Tom Childers, N5GE wrote:
>>
>> I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the years and found that
>> I
>> rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too narrow for SSB,
>> making it
>> sound tinny to me.
>>
>
>I'm copying this from the Yahoo Group list because someone recently asked a
>similar question.
>
>**************************************************
>Before you give up on the 1.8k filter, be sure to try the following:
>
>1. Tune in a station exactly using a wide filter.
>2. Adjust WIDTH = 1800 (or less).
>3. Adjust either SHIFT (my preference) or HI/LO CUT for best audio.
>
>With proper adjustment you can get good intelligibility down to 1500
>Hz. I believe my SHIFT setting is ~200 at ~1800 BW and goes up to
>~400 at ~1500 BW, but let your own ears be your guide.
>
>I learned this back in my FT-1000MP days and it's absolutely
>necessary for using any rig at low bandwidths on SSB.
>
>I would only recommend a 1.8k for someone interested in contesting or
>perhaps DX-ing on the low bands. Unless you have extremely strong
>stations nearby, the standard 2.7k will still work fine and you can
>always narrow the DSP filter to <1800 when necessary.
>
>73, Bill

That's exactly what I do now with the k3 when the going gets rough on the 2.7
filter due to QRN or QRM. Personally, I think the 2.7 or 2.8 cranked down to
1.8 is good enough when you want to use a 1.8, but I wouldn't buy one.

I also learned this with an FT1000MP MK V ;O)

73,

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

_______________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Post to: [hidden email]
You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

alsopb

Re: 1.8 or 2.1 kc Filter

In reply to this post by Bill W4ZV

Bill is right.

The below prescription does indeed allow one to use the 1.8KHz filter
successfully on SSB. It is another tool in ones toolbox to help when
things get tough. It plus the other K3 QRM fighting choices can be
quite effective.

The objective here is not fidelity. Of course the result isn't hifi.
The objective is to be able to copy under tough conditions. It does
what it is supposed to do. It gives you a shot at hearing your his call
when a jammed rare one comes back or pulling through a contest exchange
when wider filters can't. It isn't magic.

Another misconception. One can't just say all rig/1.8KHz filters combos
produce the same results. Just because a 1.8KHz filter was unusable in
one rig, doesn't mean it can't work OK in another.

Another tool -- earphones.

73 de Brian/K3KO

Bill W4ZV wrote:

>
>Tom Childers, N5GE wrote:
>
>
>>I've had 1.8 filters in many different rigs over the years and found that
>>I
>>rarely used them because, in my opinion, they are too narrow for SSB,
>>making it
>>sound tinny to me.
>>
>>
>>
>
>I'm copying this from the Yahoo Group list because someone recently asked a
>similar question.
>
>**************************************************
>Before you give up on the 1.8k filter, be sure to try the following:
>
>1. Tune in a station exactly using a wide filter.
>2. Adjust WIDTH = 1800 (or less).
>3. Adjust either SHIFT (my preference) or HI/LO CUT for best audio.
>
>With proper adjustment you can get good intelligibility down to 1500
>Hz. I believe my SHIFT setting is ~200 at ~1800 BW and goes up to
>~400 at ~1500 BW, but let your own ears be your guide.
>
>I learned this back in my FT-1000MP days and it's absolutely
>necessary for using any rig at low bandwidths on SSB.
>
>I would only recommend a 1.8k for someone interested in contesting or
>perhaps DX-ing on the low bands. Unless you have extremely strong
>stations nearby, the standard 2.7k will still work fine and you can
>always narrow the DSP filter to <1800 when necessary.
>
>73, Bill
>
>
>