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200 Hz 5-pole filter

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200 Hz 5-pole filter

Am looking for a K3, 200 Hz 5-pole filter since Elecraft no longer sells
them. Anyone out there have a spare?

73,
Dan - N3ND
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Scott Manthe-2

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

I noticed this as well. Does anyone know why Elecraft has stopped
selling them? I was looking to put one in my sub-rx.
(Sorry I can't help you with your request, Dan)

73,
Scott N9AA

On 7/24/15 7:18 PM, Dan Atchison via Elecraft wrote:

> Am looking for a K3, 200 Hz 5-pole filter since Elecraft no longer
> sells them. Anyone out there have a spare?
>
> 73,
> Dan - N3ND
> ______________________________________________________________
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alsopb

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

This filter was my secret weapon when the going got tough-- especially
on 160/80/40 M during contests. Wonder if it will make a comeback.
The 250 Hz filter is really something like 350 Hz and really too wide at
times.

73 de Brian/K3KO
On 7/25/2015 0:08 AM, Scott Manthe wrote:

> I noticed this as well. Does anyone know why Elecraft has stopped
> selling them? I was looking to put one in my sub-rx.
> (Sorry I can't help you with your request, Dan)
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
> On 7/24/15 7:18 PM, Dan Atchison via Elecraft wrote:
>> Am looking for a K3, 200 Hz 5-pole filter since Elecraft no longer
>> sells them. Anyone out there have a spare?
>>
>> 73,
>> Dan - N3ND
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
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wayne burdick

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

Administrator

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

Hi Scott,

I'm hoping we can offer them again in the future. We were looking at possible design/manufacturing changes about the time we all got really busy with the K3S.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

On Jul 24, 2015, at 5:08 PM, Scott Manthe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I noticed this as well. Does anyone know why Elecraft has stopped selling them? I was looking to put one in my sub-rx.
> (Sorry I can't help you with your request, Dan)
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
> On 7/24/15 7:18 PM, Dan Atchison via Elecraft wrote:
>> Am looking for a K3, 200 Hz 5-pole filter since Elecraft no longer sells them. Anyone out there have a spare?
>>
>> 73,
>> Dan - N3ND
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>
>
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KV5J

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

That kinda voids Sherwood's no 2 ranking for the radio?

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

The same way the ADC limit voids the Flex ranking a #1.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-07-25 1:45 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> That kinda voids Sherwood's no 2 ranking for the radio?
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/200-Hz-5-pole-filter-tp7605299p7605320.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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KV5J

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

Apples and oranges.

The K3 is still no 2 with the 200 Hz 5-pole filter. You just can no longer
buy the radio with that filter.

I have always found it a little strange that Sherwood never stated that
the filters used in his test were optional on the K3?

If the K3 was tested with the stock filter it may make it into the top 10.

Don't get me wrong I have a K3S on order. I'm just looking at the data.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

On 2015-07-25 2:04 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> Apples and oranges.

Nonsense. The IMDDR3 of a conventional transceiver will improve
significantly if one turns on the attenuator. Reducing overall
input to the Flex series 6 to keep the level below the ADC limit
is no different than adding an attenuator to a conventional
transceiver.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-07-25 2:04 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> Apples and oranges.
>
> The K3 is still no 2 with the 200 Hz 5-pole filter. You just can no longer
> buy the radio with that filter.
>
> I have always found it a little strange that Sherwood never stated that
> the filters used in his test were optional on the K3?
>
> If the K3 was tested with the stock filter it may make it into the top 10.
>
> Don't get me wrong I have a K3S on order. I'm just looking at the data.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/200-Hz-5-pole-filter-tp7605299p7605322.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
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KV5J

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

Why are you talking about the Flex? I don't care where it is at on
Sherwood's list. I never plan to own one.

Scott Manthe-2

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

In reply to this post by KV5J

Take a look at Table 2 on the bottom of page 4 of this PDF:
http://www.elecraft.com/K3/k3_arrl_review_jan09.pdf

Scott N9AA

On 7/25/15 1:45 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

KV5J

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

That is not the Sherwood "receiver list" that everyone covets.

Taking this data the K3 would be about 11th or 12th on the list
with the stock 2.7hz filter.

wayne burdick

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

Administrator

In reply to this post by KV5J

We're hoping to add the 200-Hz filter back to our product line as soon as possible. Meanwhile, the 400-Hz and 250-Hz filters also do an excellent job.

As I've mentioned before, any radio with 2-kHz IMDDR3 numbers in the 100-dB-plus range is going to be a solid performer on the air. A dB here or there above this level is really splitting hairs; it speaks more to an engineering achievement that a required level for most operators.

That said, we're happy to have two of our radios in Sherwood's top four, especially when you consider the difference in price. And if you take blocking dynamic range into consideration, as well as the various footnotes, the K3S is second to none.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

Administrator

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Not in most cases, since turning on the attenuator significantly reduces the MDS (sensitivity) of the RX. IMDDR3 is the difference between the input RX sig levels that created the IMD and the MDS of the RX. It may increase IMDDR3 slightly, or even reduce it, depending on which RX stages go into distortion at high levels first. But who wants a deaf RX that can not hear down to the noise floor of the band?

What turning on the attenuator (or having a poor sensitivity RX) -does- do is artificially increase the iP3 number, rendering it meaningless as a number for comparing different receivers which have -different- RX sensitivities for that measurement. Some manufacturers have gamed this number for years.

For best comparisons, receivers should be compared at the same sensitivity level.

Eric
elecraft.com
_..._

> On Jul 25, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On 2015-07-25 2:04 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
> > Apples and oranges.
>
> Nonsense. The IMDDR3 of a conventional transceiver will improve
> significantly if one turns on the attenuator. Reducing overall
> input to the Flex series 6 to keep the level below the ADC limit
> is no different than adding an attenuator to a conventional
> transceiver.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
>> On 2015-07-25 2:04 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>> Apples and oranges.
>>
>> The K3 is still no 2 with the 200 Hz 5-pole filter. You just can no longer
>> buy the radio with that filter.
>>
>> I have always found it a little strange that Sherwood never stated that
>> the filters used in his test were optional on the K3?
>>
>> If the K3 was tested with the stock filter it may make it into the top 10.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong I have a K3S on order. I'm just looking at the data.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/200-Hz-5-pole-filter-tp7605299p7605322.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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Scott Manthe-2

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

In reply to this post by KV5J

No, and it's also from 2009, but that's not the point. The point is that
there isn't going to be much difference between the 250hz 8 pole filter
and the 200hz 5 pole filter. But think about your comment for a moment.
A stock K3 with no additional filters is that good enough to rank that
high. It might actually rank higher, because the ARRL and Sherwood
methodologies differ.

In any case, far too many people are far too concerned about the
Sherwood rankings. Most people don't understand what the data mean and
only worry about where a radio ranks on the list. The few dB between
radios at the top of the Sherwood rankings means the list could probably
be reordered based on component differences in production runs.
Certainly a radio near the top ten is good enough.

73,
Scott N9AA

On 7/25/15 3:29 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

> That is not the Sherwood "receiver list" that everyone covets.
>
> Taking this data the K3 would be about 11th or 12th on the list
> with the stock 2.7hz filter.
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/200-Hz-5-pole-filter-tp7605299p7605328.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> .
>

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

In reply to this post by KV5J

Oh but Rob does. See the notes at the bottom of the page for his
Receiver Test Data. These reference "p" and "q". These identify the
filters used. Elecraft states what are optional vs. standard filters.

*/p/* with 200 Hz 5-pole filter
/*q*/ with 400 Hz 8-pole filter

73 Bob, K4TAX

On 7/25/2015 1:04 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:

Bob McGraw - K4TAX

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

In reply to this post by Scott Manthe-2

One can download the Sherwood list and save it to an EXCEL file. Then
sort it by your own choosing. The Sherwood list is presented on one
parameter only being dynamic range, narrow spaced. There's multiple
other parameters that make for a fine receiver.

73 Bob, K4TAX

On 7/25/2015 3:20 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:

> No, and it's also from 2009, but that's not the point. The point is
> that there isn't going to be much difference between the 250hz 8 pole
> filter and the 200hz 5 pole filter. But think about your comment for a
> moment. A stock K3 with no additional filters is that good enough to
> rank that high. It might actually rank higher, because the ARRL and
> Sherwood methodologies differ.
>
> In any case, far too many people are far too concerned about the
> Sherwood rankings. Most people don't understand what the data mean and
> only worry about where a radio ranks on the list. The few dB between
> radios at the top of the Sherwood rankings means the list could
> probably be reordered based on component differences in production
> runs. Certainly a radio near the top ten is good enough.
>
> 73,
> Scott N9AA
>
>
> On 7/25/15 3:29 PM, XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft wrote:
>> That is not the Sherwood "receiver list" that everyone covets.
>>
>> Taking this data the K3 would be about 11th or 12th on the list
>> with the stock 2.7hz filter.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/200-Hz-5-pole-filter-tp7605299p7605328.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> .
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
>

Phil Wheeler-2

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

Somehow what I like on the air, how it sounds, is
of more interest to me that what's in an xls file,
Bob. So I'm in accord with "In any case, far too
many people are far too concerned about the
Sherwood rankings."

The data is interesting, but not of primary
interest -- to me.

73, Phil W7OX

On 7/25/15 3:46 PM, Bob McGraw - K4TAX wrote:

> One can download the Sherwood list and save it
> to an EXCEL file. Then sort it by your own
> choosing. The Sherwood list is presented on one
> parameter only being dynamic range, narrow
> spaced. There's multiple other parameters that
> make for a fine receiver.
>
> 73 Bob, K4TAX
>
> On 7/25/2015 3:20 PM, Scott Manthe wrote:
>> No, and it's also from 2009, but that's not the
>> point. The point is that there isn't going to
>> be much difference between the 250hz 8 pole
>> filter and the 200hz 5 pole filter. But think
>> about your comment for a moment. A stock K3
>> with no additional filters is that good enough
>> to rank that high. It might actually rank
>> higher, because the ARRL and Sherwood
>> methodologies differ.
>>
>> In any case, far too many people are far too
>> concerned about the Sherwood rankings. Most
>> people don't understand what the data mean and
>> only worry about where a radio ranks on the
>> list. The few dB between radios at the top of
>> the Sherwood rankings means the list could
>> probably be reordered based on component
>> differences in production runs. Certainly a
>> radio near the top ten is good enough.
>>
>> 73,
>> Scott N9AA

Bill Breeden

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Since Sherwood's Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced measurement is of great
interest to CW operators, it only makes sense to make the measurement
using a CW filter, optional or not. The measurement would be
meaningless to CW operators if made using the stock sideband filter.

73,

Bill - NA5DX

On 7/25/2015 1:47 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Message: 27
> Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2015 11:04:20 -0700 (MST)
> From: XE3/K5ENS via Elecraft<[hidden email]>
> To:[hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 200 Hz 5-pole filter
> Message-ID:<[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Apples and oranges.
>
> The K3 is still no 2 with the 200 Hz 5-pole filter. You just can no longer
> buy the radio with that filter.
>
> I have always found it a little strange that Sherwood never stated that
> the filters used in his test were optional on the K3?
>
> If the K3 was tested with the stock filter it may make it into the top 10.
>
> Don't get me wrong I have a K3S on order. I'm just looking at the data

Jim Brown-10

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

On Sun,7/26/2015 2:02 PM, Bill Breeden wrote:
> Since Sherwood's Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced measurement is of great
> interest to CW operators, it only makes sense to make the measurement
> using a CW filter, optional or not. The measurement would be
> meaningless to CW operators if made using the stock sideband filter.

Not really -- the K3, K3S, and KX3 IF filters are implemented in DSP.
The plug-in filters are additional roofing filters that protect the DSP
from overload by strong signals outside of their passband. The K3, K3S,
and KX3 have very good CW receivers without the optional roofing
filters. The roofing filters simply allow them to work very close to
very strong signals, AND cascade with the DSP filter to provide
additional rejection outside the passband.

73, Jim K9YC

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Bill Breeden

Re: 200 Hz 5-pole filter

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Jim,

I disagree. The selected roofing filter is the first IF filter in a K3.

You might want to read what Eric and Wayne have to say on the subject at
the following link:

http://www.elecraft.com/K3/Roofing_Filters.htm

73,

Bill - NA5DX

*Jim Brown*jim at
audiosystemsgroup.com<mailto:elecraft%40mailman.qth.net?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BElecraft%5D%20200%20Hz%205-pole%20filter&In-Reply-To=%3C55B55B5D.5070800%40audiosystemsgroup.com%3E>
/Sun Jul 26 18:12:45 EDT 2015/

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On Sun,7/26/2015 2:02 PM, Bill Breeden wrote:
>/Since Sherwood's Dynamic Range Narrow Spaced measurement is of great />/interest to CW operators, it only makes sense to make the measurement />/using a CW filter, optional or not. The measurement would be />/meaningless to CW operators if made using the stock sideband filter. /
Not really -- the K3, K3S, and KX3 IF filters are implemented in DSP.
The plug-in filters are additional roofing filters that protect the DSP
from overload by strong signals outside of their passband. The K3, K3S,
and KX3 have very good CW receivers without the optional roofing
filters. The roofing filters simply allow them to work very close to
very strong signals, AND cascade with the DSP filter to provide
additional rejection outside the passband.

73, Jim K9YC

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