Elecraft

32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

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Gordon LaPoint

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

Linux 32 bit applications *WILL* run on 64bit operating systems. I do
software development for Raspberry Pi and Linux desktop systems in both
32 bit and 64bit versions.
The Raspian version of Debian is only 32 bit, so it will not run 64
bit programs, but the 64bit desktop will run both 32bit and 64bit.
The actual executable code must be compiled for the proper architecture
for it to work (arm or x86).

Gordon - N1MGO

On 4/12/2018 11:53 PM, tomb18 wrote:
> So forgive me but is it the case that the 32 bit elecraft utilities will not run on 64 bit operating systems? If that's the case then elecraft will release a 64 bit version of the utilities. If the 32 bit utilities do run on a 64 bit OS then what's the point? There is no point. A 32 bit version of their utilities will work just as well as just fast over a rs232 connection no matter if the OS is 64 bit 128 bit or 256 bit. So the question is will these utilities not run on a 64 bit OS? They are 32 bit and run just fine on 64 bit windows.. 73 Tom
>

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Johan Ymerson

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

That is very easy to test, isn't it.
Just tried on Ubuntu 17.10 "Live-CD" (just boot the desktop ISO without
installing).
This is what I get:
ubuntu@ubuntu:~/Downloads/k3util_1_16_6_25$ ./k3util
bash: ./k3util: No such file or directory

/Johan, SM0XHJ

On 2018-04-13 10:55, Gordon LaPoint wrote:

> Linux 32 bit applications *WILL* run on 64bit operating systems. I do
> software development for Raspberry Pi and Linux desktop systems in
> both 32 bit and 64bit versions.
> The Raspian version of Debian is only 32 bit, so it will not run
> 64 bit programs, but the 64bit desktop will run both 32bit and 64bit.
> The actual executable code must be compiled for the proper
> architecture for it to work (arm or x86).
>
> Gordon - N1MGO
>
> On 4/12/2018 11:53 PM, tomb18 wrote:
>> So forgive me but is it the case that the 32 bit elecraft utilities
>> will not run on 64 bit operating systems? If that's the case then
>> elecraft will release a 64 bit version of the utilities. If the 32 bit
>> utilities do run on a 64 bit OS then what's the point? There is no
>> point. A 32 bit version of their utilities will work just as well as
>> just fast over a rs232 connection no matter if the OS is 64 bit 128
>> bit or 256 bit. So the question is will these utilities not run on a
>> 64 bit OS? They are 32 bit and run just fine on 64 bit windows.. 73
>> Tom
>>
>
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Thorpe, Jeffrey

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

In reply to this post by Johan Ymerson

That did it - thanks.

Jeff - kg7hdz

> On Apr 13, 2018, at 12:34 AM, Johan Ymerson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> By the way, if you get errors when the K3/KX3 utilities is checking for new firmware, try installing the 'curl' package.
>
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k6dgw

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

In reply to this post by Martin Sole-3

We already did, in the later 70's. It ran on a CDC6600. We used it for
guidance analysis and trajectory planning/simulation for the Apollo
missions. FORTRAN IV, double precision FP words.

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 4/12/2018 11:10 PM, Martin Sole wrote:
>
> When are we going to see 128 bit OS's :)
>
> Martin, HS0ZED

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rich hurd WC3T

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

These young whippersnappers. Back when I was a kid, we used to carve our
own ICs out of wood. :D

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 14:06 Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> We already did, in the later 70's. It ran on a CDC6600. We used it for
> guidance analysis and trajectory planning/simulation for the Apollo
> missions. FORTRAN IV, double precision FP words.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 4/12/2018 11:10 PM, Martin Sole wrote:
> >
> > When are we going to see 128 bit OS's :)
> >
> > Martin, HS0ZED
>
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briancom

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

In reply to this post by k6dgw

My failing memory seems to recall that the CDC6600 used 60 bit math for
floating point single precision operations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_6600 seems to confirm that.

They were great machines, till the 7600 then the Cray computers showed up...

It was interesting to bring these machines to their knees by physics
calculations that took days to run. They had to be run on weekends to
keep the rest of the lab happy.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 4/13/2018 18:06 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> We already did, in the later 70's. It ran on a CDC6600. We used it for
> guidance analysis and trajectory planning/simulation for the Apollo
> missions. FORTRAN IV, double precision FP words.
>
> 73,
>
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
> On 4/12/2018 11:10 PM, Martin Sole wrote:
>>
>> When are we going to see 128 bit OS's :)
>>
>> Martin, HS0ZED
>
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k6dgw

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

Details, details ... 128 or 120, their both greater than 64 [yes, it is
120]. It's a long way to the moon and truncation errors in the
numerical integration summed to unacceptable levels on the UNIVAC 1108
[64-bit DP FP] machines. I just couldn't pass up the chance to point
out that "newest isn't always *that* new." [:-))

<rhetoricalquestion>Speaking of "newest," I haven't turned on my Win10
laptop in several weeks [maybe a month or a little more]. I did at
breakfast today, it is now lunchtime and it's still applying updates ...
apparently 1 at a time. Why can't it do 4 at a time, one in each
core?</rhetoricalquestion>

73,

Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 4/13/2018 12:48 PM, brian wrote:

> My failing memory seems to recall that the CDC6600 used 60 bit math
> for floating point single precision operations.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_6600 seems to confirm that.
>
> They were great machines, till the 7600 then the Cray computers showed
> up...
>
> It was interesting to bring these machines to their knees by physics
> calculations that took days to run. They had to be run on weekends to
> keep the rest of the lab happy.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO

Phil Hystad-3

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

In reply to this post by briancom

Failing memories indeed. I worked for CDC Sunnyvale Ops back in the early 1970s and part of that time I was briefly working on the FTN (aka Fortran) compiler, Pass 1. The regular floating point on the 6600 was 60 bits as the word size on the computer was 60 bits.

The failing memory part — I believe that the FTN compiler itself implemented double-precision 120 bit floating point that was a slight sacrifice of screaming performance (at the time) for higher precision. I think this was FTN’s type G floating point. So, this floating point did not have 120 bit registers but rather treated two 60-bit words each holding half of the floating point double-precision number.

Also the CDC 6600 was released in 1964. SN1 of the CDC 6600 was originally sent to Los Alamos labs but retired to Sunnyvale when I worked there (’72-75) and it was our main 6600 used by the FTN compiler project. Of course we had at least once each of all the 6000-series computers as well as a 7600.

73, phil, K7PEH

> On Apr 13, 2018, at 12:48 PM, brian <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> My failing memory seems to recall that the CDC6600 used 60 bit math for floating point single precision operations.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_6600 seems to confirm that.
>
> They were great machines, till the 7600 then the Cray computers showed up...
>
> It was interesting to bring these machines to their knees by physics calculations that took days to run. They had to be run on weekends to keep the rest of the lab happy.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
> On 4/13/2018 18:06 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:
>> We already did, in the later 70's. It ran on a CDC6600. We used it for
>> guidance analysis and trajectory planning/simulation for the Apollo
>> missions. FORTRAN IV, double precision FP words.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>>
>> On 4/12/2018 11:10 PM, Martin Sole wrote:
>>>
>>> When are we going to see 128 bit OS's :)
>>>
>>> Martin, HS0ZED
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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>>
>> ---
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> ______________________________________________________________
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Bill Frantz

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

In reply to this post by John Marvin

When I launched the K3 utility, I got a message saying in
essence, that it was using obsolete technology. It referenced
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208436> which says that soon
32 bit applications will not run. To quote:

"Starting with macOS High Sierra 10.13.4, apps that have not
been updated to use 64-bit processes produce a one-time alert
when opened. This gives users advance notice that they are
running 32-bit software, which will not be compatible with macOS
in the future."

They don't say when the change will be effective, but the clock
is ticking.

73 Bill AE6JV

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(408)356-8506 | contact sport. | 16345
Englewood Ave
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CA 95032

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Raymond Sills

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

HI Bill:

/rant

It's nice that people are getting a warning.... but IMO, I'd just as soon stay at a lower level OS where all the applications that I need will still work just fine. I got viciously snagged by an OS upgrade, which rendered my entire Time Capsule backup useless. So, all the files that I wanted to keep simply are unavailable to me after my older iMac's HD tanked, and I bought a new iMac, ASSUMING (bad idea) that I could restore them to the new machine. Nope. So, that's left a bitter taste in my mouth. And, I'm a long time Mac user. This is the first time I've been seriously burnt by an OS "upgrade".

So have a number of professional colleagues who depended on their apps running properly on High Sierra... who sadly discovered that their income stream ground to a halt, since they no longer to use their computers for professional audio and video post-production. Eventually, their apps will be supported by HS... but for many, this is a big deal. Fortunately, some of them were able to "downgrade" back to the OS that works.... but not all were able to do that.

So, for now... I do not upgrade an OS unless and until I know that my apps will run properly.

/end rant

-----Original Message-----
From: Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
To: elecraft <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sat, Apr 14, 2018 9:44 pm
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

When I launched the K3 utility, I got a message saying in
essence, that it was using obsolete technology. It referenced
<https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208436> which says that soon
32 bit applications will not run. To quote:

"Starting with macOS High Sierra 10.13.4, apps that have not
been updated to use 64-bit processes produce a one-time alert
when opened. This gives users advance notice that they are
running 32-bit software, which will not be compatible with macOS
in the future."

They don't say when the change will be effective, but the clock
is ticking.

73 Bill AE6JV

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | Ham radio contesting is a | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | contact sport. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | - Ken Widelitz K6LA / VY2TT | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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stengrevics

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

I don’t mean to be combative, but just update your apps after an OS update.

I’ve had no problems moving to the latest High Sierra 10.13.4.

John
WA1EAZ

> On Apr 15, 2018, at 10:33 AM, Raymond Sills <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> HI Bill:
>
>
> /rant
>
>
> It's nice that people are getting a warning.... but IMO, I'd just as soon stay at a lower level OS where all the applications that I need will still work just fine. I got viciously snagged by an OS upgrade, which rendered my entire Time Capsule backup useless. So, all the files that I wanted to keep simply are unavailable to me after my older iMac's HD tanked, and I bought a new iMac, ASSUMING (bad idea) that I could restore them to the new machine. Nope. So, that's left a bitter taste in my mouth. And, I'm a long time Mac user. This is the first time I've been seriously burnt by an OS "upgrade".
>
>
> So have a number of professional colleagues who depended on their apps running properly on High Sierra... who sadly discovered that their income stream ground to a halt, since they no longer to use their computers for professional audio and video post-production. Eventually, their apps will be supported by HS... but for many, this is a big deal. Fortunately, some of them were able to "downgrade" back to the OS that works.... but not all were able to do that.
>
>
> So, for now... I do not upgrade an OS unless and until I know that my apps will run properly.
>
>
> /end rant
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bill Frantz <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> To: elecraft <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> Sent: Sat, Apr 14, 2018 9:44 pm
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps
>
> When I launched the K3 utility, I got a message saying in
> essence, that it was using obsolete technology. It referenced
> <https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208436> which says that soon
> 32 bit applications will not run. To quote:
>
> "Starting with macOS High Sierra 10.13.4, apps that have not
> been updated to use 64-bit processes produce a one-time alert
> when opened. This gives users advance notice that they are
> running 32-bit software, which will not be compatible with macOS
> in the future."
>
> They don't say when the change will be effective, but the clock
> is ticking.
>
> 73 Bill AE6JV
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz | Ham radio contesting is a | Periwinkle
> (408)356-8506 | contact sport. | 16345
> Englewood Ave
> www.pwpconsult.com | - Ken Widelitz K6LA / VY2TT | Los Gatos,
> CA 95032
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

In reply to this post by John_N1JM

On 13/04/18 21:14, [hidden email] wrote:
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
> So forgive me but is it the case that the 32 bit elecraft utilities will not run on 64 bit operating systems??If that's the case then elecraft will release a 64 bit version of the utilities. If the 32 bit utilities? do run on a 64 bit OS then what's the point??There is no point. A 32 bit version of their utilities will work just as well as just fast over a rs232 connection no matter if the OS is 64 bit 128 bit or 256 bit.?So the question is will these utilities not run on a 64 bit OS? They are 32 bit and run just fine on 64 bit windows..?73 Tom?

The 32bit code on 64bit system problem varies by OS. Windows(64)
generally has good support for 32 bit applications. (Most of the more
esoteric background system tools are 32 bit code anyway, some are still
virtually the same as those developed for Windows 2000, or even NT!)

But these days MS has no support for 16 bit software, such as Windows
3.xx code etc (not exactly surprising, but the old Win3x "Terminal"
program is still quick and easy to use, for example, on an old XP box.)
Windows 32 bit systems, XP and earlier, fully support the old Win3x
software, and many DOS programs too.   (Vista and later dropped 16 bit
support, even on the command line.)

In the Linux world, it's utterly different. From my personal
experience, a pure 64 bit system will not run any 32 bit code "as is",
unless you hunt down and load a sort of compatibility layer.   Much as
in the later days of Windows 3.xx, you'd use a 32 bit compatibility
tool, to run some 32 bit code on a 16 bit system!   Some systems come
with that already, but it needs enabling.

So, if you go to a 64 bit Linux, unless all the programs you want are
freely available in that OS's 64 bit flavours, you'll have to compile
them yourself. And that too, can be troublesome for some older (and not
so old) Ham software, where the original author has "handed off" support
to the "community."   Also, some of the compilation tools that a lot of
the older (but still very good) code needs so you can build it, have not
yet been updated to "64 bitness" themselves.

Plus, as before, though "64 bit" CPU's have been around for a long time
now, many of the class of machine that most of us would "recycle" (Ex
Vista era or later laptops etc) and put Linux on, other than the
internals of the CPU, are in truth 32 bit machines, and as such will
have memory addressing issues above 4Gig.

Even ex XP machines, running 32 bit versions of Lubuntu, LinuxLite, or
Puppy Linux, can have very useful roles in a ham shack, for (other than
time) next to zero cost.

If however, you want to edit/mix real-time HD video and audio on a PC.
Then, a fast 64 bit system will probably be needed.   The other "maybe"
need, is if you run a pure SDR based station, and need to run various
digimodes all on the same PC, with multiple screens and I/O systems.
But I know of other people already doing all that on 32 bit Linux
systems just fine anyway. (Once they find out how to make it all work
and play nice.)

Plus as before, the K3/KX3 utility, only communicates to the radio over
an 8 bit link, & that is not in the MBPS range.

I have no experience of Apple products, other than on odd occasions
having to reconfigure the XYL's iPad WiFi settings.

73.

Dave G0WBX/G8KBV (Who does use Windows 7 Pro 64 bit at work, but I'm 95%
Linux at home now.)

PS:
The fix for this, is to release the K3/KX3 utility sources into the
public domain.   Then if you want, you can compile it on a 32, 64 bit
(or other) system where a compatible compiler exists. Any Elecraft
"secret sauce" could probably be reverse engineered from the existing
tool today, by recording and examining the data passing between the rig
and utility, for known tasks. (I'm thinking of the firmware update
procedure etc, all the other stuff is documented in the manuals.)

>><<

--
Created on and sent from a Unix like PC running and using free and open source software:

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Bill Frantz

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

wsjt-x is quite CPU intensive. Running FT8, it has a lot of
computing to do to decode the signals in the 3 second or so
window it has. It is decoding multiple signals, and then
reconstituting the decoded signals so it can subtract them from
the input and decode the signals hiding underneath them.

Joe Taylor mentioned in a lecture that the decoded signals are
listed in ascending order of frequency, and these second decodes
appear at the end.

OTOH, wsjt-x appears to only need about 30MB of storage, so it
should fit nicely in the 2GB address space it has on most OSes.
It needs speed, not bit addresses.

BUT, with Linux distos moving away from 32 bit, and Apple
announcing the end of support for 32 bit, if Elecraft wants to
continue supporting these platforms -- and I hope it will --
they should move "with all deliberate speed" to supporting 64
bit utilities.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/16/18 at 1:39 AM, [hidden email] (Dave B via
Elecraft) wrote:

>If however, you want to edit/mix real-time HD video and audio on a PC.
>Then, a fast 64 bit system will probably be needed. The other "maybe"
>need, is if you run a pure SDR based station, and need to run various
>digimodes all on the same PC, with multiple screens and I/O systems.
>But I know of other people already doing all that on 32 bit Linux
>systems just fine anyway. (Once they find out how to make it all work
>and play nice.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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(408)356-8506 | over lies and hate. | 16345
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CA 95032

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Jim Brown-10

Re: 32 bit Elecraft Utility Apps

On 4/16/2018 10:15 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> wsjt-x is quite CPU intensive. Running FT8

That's not entirely consistent with my experience and what I've heard
from WSJT-X developers. MSK144 IS quite demanding of processor, speed,
and RAM. Other modes generally are not. As long as 5-6 years ago, before
the WSJT team had developed a multi-decoder, using W6CQZ's JT65-HF
multi-decoder, I often decoding 20 or more JT65 signals in a single pass
on HF with very under-powered 10-year old Thinkpads that didn't have
much RAM either.

For MSK144 (meteor scatter) my superfast new Thinkpad could not be set
for deep decoding and maximum frequency tolerance until I brought the
RAM up to 16GB.

73, Jim K9YC

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