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8 or5 Pole cw filters

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Mike Zbrozek

8 or5 Pole cw filters

Hello group-

As a cw opr that is planning on buying a K3 next month I would
like to know how many cw ops use/prefer 5 or 8 pole cw filters?
Does anybody use the 1000 Hz 8 pole filter for hunting cq's then
switch over to a 500 or 400 Hz filter? And how many cw ops use
a sharper 200 or 250 Hz filter?

Tnx in Advance

Mike Zbrozek, K8XF

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Vic Rosenthal

Re: 8 or5 Pole cw filters

I have the 400 and 1000 Hz filters. Turns out I almost never open it up past 400.

Vic K2VCO /4X6GP

> On Jan 14, 2015, at 5:52 AM, Mike Zbrozek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello group-
>
> As a cw opr that is planning on buying a K3 next month I would
> like to know how many cw ops use/prefer 5 or 8 pole cw filters?
> Does anybody use the 1000 Hz 8 pole filter for hunting cq's then
> switch over to a 500 or 400 Hz filter? And how many cw ops use a sharper 200 or 250 Hz filter?
>
> Tnx in Advance
>
> Mike Zbrozek, K8XF
>
>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
> http://www.avast.com
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Jim Brown-10

Re: 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Mike Zbrozek

On Tue,1/13/2015 7:52 PM, Mike Zbrozek wrote:
> And how many cw ops use a sharper 200 or 250 Hz filter?

I'm primarily a contester, but also a DXer. My K3s have all 8-pole
filters. 250 Hz and 400 Hz for CW, 1.8, 2.1, and 2.8 kHz for SSB. I
bought the 1.8 kHz before the 2.1, and I like the 2.1 better.

Remember that these are ROOFING filters -- IF selectivity is set by
turning a knob to control the DSP IF. The roofing filters do two things.
Most important, they protect the DSP IF from overload by very strong
signals very close to you frequency. Second, and also quite useful,
their selectivity CASCADES with selectivity of the DSP IF. That means
that when, for example, the IF is set to 250 Hz and the 250 Hz filter is
switched in (it happens automatically) the skirts get nearly twice as
steep. We have the rejection of the IF plus the rejection of the filter.

We can set the filter to switch in wherever we want, simply by defining
it's bandwidth in the setup menu. I have my 250 Hz filter set to switch
in at 350 Hz, and I do most CW operation with a 250 Hz IF setting. These
are settings you can play with.

I use a 400 Hz IF for RTTY, except under conditions of extreme QRM, when
I might narrow it down to 200 or 250 Hz.

Another important point. If you're not a contester, you may not need any
roofing filters other than the 2.7 or 2.8 kHz TX filter. If that's the
case, I'd hold off buying additional filters until you've decided that
you need them.

Note that I didn't answer the question about 5-pole or 8-pole. I buy
8-pole filters because it is my understanding that filters with more
poles can be made to have flatter response in the passband. I started
with 2.7 kHz 5-pole, and later bought a used K3 with an 8-pole 2.8 kHz
filter in it. It is noticeably flatter when transmitting RTTY, and i've
since replaced by 5-pole 2.7 kHz filter with the 2.8 kHz 8-pole filter.

73, Jim K9YC
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Brian Hunt

Re: 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Mike Zbrozek

Remember that these are roofing filters and what they do is keep strong adjacent signals out of the DSP and AGC. The final selectivity is set by the DSP WIDTH control. As you ratchet down the WIDTH the appropriate roofing filter is switched in automagically.

That said, when I bought my K3 I added a single 400 Hz 8 pole thinking that I could add others later. That was 4 years ago.

I've been trying to decide between a 700 Hz and 1 KHz filter for a while. Turns out that on CW the NR is more effective at those BWs and 2.7 KHz is too wide a door to leave open when chasing weak signals.

I'm a 95% CW op, contester and DX chaser.

HTH & 73,
Brian, K0DTJ
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Johnny Siu

8 or5 Pole cw filters

Hello Gentleman,
I am not a CW op. To my knowledge, 8 pole will give more passive IMD and lower NPR (see page 6 of the report below by AB4OJ):
http://www.ab4oj.com/test/docs/npr_test.pdf

73
Johnny VR2XMC
寄件人︰ Brian Hunt <[hidden email]>
收件人︰ "<[hidden email]>" <[hidden email]>
傳送日期︰ 2015年01月14日 (週三) 12:27 PM
主題︰ Re: [Elecraft] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

Remember that these are roofing filters and what they do is keep strong adjacent signals out of the DSP and AGC. The final selectivity is set by the DSP WIDTH control. As you ratchet down the WIDTH the appropriate roofing filter is switched in automagically.

That said, when I bought my K3 I added a single 400 Hz 8 pole thinking that I could add others later. That was 4 years ago.

I've been trying to decide between a 700 Hz and 1 KHz filter for a while. Turns out that on CW the NR is more effective at those BWs and 2.7 KHz is too wide a door to leave open when chasing weak signals.

I'm a 95% CW op, contester and DX chaser.

HTH & 73,
Brian, K0DTJ

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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On Tue, Jan 13, 2015 at 11:23 PM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 250 Hz filter set to switch in at 350 Hz, and I do most CW operation with a
> 250 Hz IF setting. These are settings you can play with.

With the 8 pole CW filters there is a not so obvious method to the
madness here. We do the same thing as Jim with the "250" filter, but
here's some more stuff to add to the discussion.

The K3 8 pole filters are electrically the same as the 8 MHz IF INRAD
filters used in the FT1000MP. They went together with 455 kHz IF
filters also called 400 and 250. In series, they produced a 400 and
250 Hz CW overall bandwidth of exceptional sharpness and a combined
floor below the noise floor of most measuring instruments. In the K3,
the 455 kHz filters are replaced by the K3's DSP, and the 8 MHz
filters are now the roofing filters in a different mounting. Wayne
chose to retain the FT1000MP nomenclature for the filters, 400 and
250.

Used by themselves as they are in the K3, the "400" Hz is really a
440, and the "250" Hz is really a 330 Hz. I switch in the "400" Hz at
450 and the "250" at 350. This is a filter choice and setting adopted
by all the K3 "bringers" who operate NY3A multi-op in the CW contests,
including N4AF who lives there, and has a pair of K3's.

With the 400 and 250 offset tweaked to center them on the DSP
passband, the combined passband at 450 and 350 will transform a key
click to a spike, which the K3 handles nicely. The K3, with DSB NB set
to dSP t2-7 or t3.7, IF NB off, and CONFIG: AGC PLS set to nor, with
those filters and width settings one can nearly eliminate key clicks,
even from a loud station up or down only 400 Hz.

This is contesting-developed information, but it works well in any
setting. The roofing filter plus DSP is almost, but not quite as sharp
a passband as the MP's cascaded 8MHz/455 kHz filter combo. But it
takes a lab instrument to tell the difference, and the K3's DSP and
firmware driven features open up a whole new world for contesting
beyond the MP series. Before the K3, the MP was THE contesting radio.

I would note that in crowded contesting conditions, you pretty much
have to use a filter which matches the DSP setting. What gets by the
roofing filter can engage the "defensive" hardware AGC which is there
to keep input to the analog to digital conversion in the sweet range
of the AD device. This can become a problem with very loud signals
right at the edge of the DSP passband, if the roofing filter is not
close in bandwidth.

73 and good luck, Guy K2AV
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Jim Brown-10

Re: 8 or5 Pole cw filters

On Wed,1/14/2015 12:21 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> With the 8 pole CW filters there is a not so obvious method to the
> madness here. We do the same thing as Jim with the "250" filter, but
> here's some more stuff to add to the discussion.

Thanks for that additional advice, Guy. Much appreciated.

73, Jim K9YC
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Bill Coleman-2

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Mike Zbrozek

> On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:52 PM, Mike Zbrozek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> As a cw opr that is planning on buying a K3 next month I would
> like to know how many cw ops use/prefer 5 or 8 pole cw filters?
> Does anybody use the 1000 Hz 8 pole filter for hunting cq's then
> switch over to a 500 or 400 Hz filter? And how many cw ops use a sharper 200 or 250 Hz filter?
>
> Tnx in Advance
>
> Mike Zbrozek, K8XF

I’m going to buck the trend a little bit. I only have one 8-pole filter — the 13 kHz FM filter.

I see posts from a lot of guys who have a radio full of 8-pole filters. That’s nice — if you can afford it. Those filters are expensive.

During the five years I spent dreaming of owning a K3, I had thought I only wanted to have the 8-pole filters. However, my wife (the best XYL ever!) ordered a very stock K3 for me for Christmas, and it came with the 2700 Hz (5-pole) filter. Swapping out this filter after the fact for the 2800 (8-pole) filter is even more expensive than ordering it in the first place.

Because of the expense, I used the stock filter for about six months before contemplating anything. I bought the 13 kHz filter because it gave me FM and AM receive and transmit capability. I got the 500 Hz (5-pole) filter because someone offered it on this list at a greatly discounted price.

The key thing to remember about the K3 is that the DSP IS your filter! You don’t have to buy any of those expensive crystal filters. PERIOD. The radio works great with just the stock filter.

Do the expensive crystal filters make a difference? Yes. The 500 Hz filter makes a difference. I’ve got it configured to kick in at 450 Hz. There’s a distinct difference in the audio background noise switching to 450 from 500. During the 160m CW contest, this filter knocks down a lot of adjacent channel interference. I’m glad I have a narrow roofing filter available for CW, PSK and RTTY work.

Bottom line — can you afford to put $700 (or $1400 if you buy the KRX3 option) worth of crystal filters in your radio? Yes? Good for you. No? Then the stock 5-pole filter works great. Splurge for the 500 Hz (5-pole) roofing filter instead of upgrading to the 2.8 kHz (8-pole) filter.

PS - I just bought the KRX3 option and purchased it with the stock 2.7 kHz (5-pole) filter. I did spend the extra $30 to get a filter whose offset matches the offset of the filter in the main radio (-0.79).

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Bill Coleman-2

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Guy Olinger K2AV

> On Jan 14, 2015, at 3:21 AM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I would note that in crowded contesting conditions, you pretty much
> have to use a filter which matches the DSP setting. What gets by the
> roofing filter can engage the "defensive" hardware AGC which is there
> to keep input to the analog to digital conversion in the sweet range
> of the AD device. This can become a problem with very loud signals
> right at the edge of the DSP passband, if the roofing filter is not
> close in bandwidth.

I disagree with this assessment. The DSP filtering is quite good. You only have a problem with a wider roofing filter causing the hardware AGC pumping for extremely strong signals that happen to be within the bounds of the roofing filter, but outside the DSP filter. Unless the roofing filter is really wide (like using the 2.7 kHz filter in a CW contest) this doesn’t happen that often.

I find the stock 2.7 kHz roofing filter more than adequate for SSB contesting, and the 500 Hz roofing filter perfect for CW and RTTY contesting.

The K3 is a fantastic radio even if you don’t have a bunch of really expensive crystal filters….

Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: [hidden email]
Web: http://boringhamradiopart.blogspot.com
Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!"
-- Wilbur Wright, 1901

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NK7Z

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Bill Coleman-2

I use the 8 pole Xtal filter, and love it for CW... You are in for such
a treat once you get your K3 going on CW... The rig is a wet dream for
CW ops.
--
Thanks and 73's,
For equipment, and software setups and reviews see:
www.nk7z.net
for MixW support see;
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mixw/info
for Dopplergram information see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/dopplergram/info
for MM-SSTV see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MM-SSTV/info

On Tue, 2015-01-20 at 23:17 -0500, Bill Coleman wrote:

> > On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:52 PM, Mike Zbrozek <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > As a cw opr that is planning on buying a K3 next month I would
> > like to know how many cw ops use/prefer 5 or 8 pole cw filters?
> > Does anybody use the 1000 Hz 8 pole filter for hunting cq's then
> > switch over to a 500 or 400 Hz filter? And how many cw ops use a sharper 200 or 250 Hz filter?
> >
> > Tnx in Advance
> >
> > Mike Zbrozek, K8XF
>
> I’m going to buck the trend a little bit. I only have one 8-pole filter — the 13 kHz FM filter.
>
> I see posts from a lot of guys who have a radio full of 8-pole filters. That’s nice — if you can afford it. Those filters are expensive.
>
> During the five years I spent dreaming of owning a K3, I had thought I only wanted to have the 8-pole filters. However, my wife (the best XYL ever!) ordered a very stock K3 for me for Christmas, and it came with the 2700 Hz (5-pole) filter. Swapping out this filter after the fact for the 2800 (8-pole) filter is even more expensive than ordering it in the first place.
>
> Because of the expense, I used the stock filter for about six months before contemplating anything. I bought the 13 kHz filter because it gave me FM and AM receive and transmit capability. I got the 500 Hz (5-pole) filter because someone offered it on this list at a greatly discounted price.
>
> The key thing to remember about the K3 is that the DSP IS your filter! You don’t have to buy any of those expensive crystal filters. PERIOD. The radio works great with just the stock filter.
>
> Do the expensive crystal filters make a difference? Yes. The 500 Hz filter makes a difference. I’ve got it configured to kick in at 450 Hz. There’s a distinct difference in the audio background noise switching to 450 from 500. During the 160m CW contest, this filter knocks down a lot of adjacent channel interference. I’m glad I have a narrow roofing filter available for CW, PSK and RTTY work.
>
> Bottom line — can you afford to put $700 (or $1400 if you buy the KRX3 option) worth of crystal filters in your radio? Yes? Good for you. No? Then the stock 5-pole filter works great. Splurge for the 500 Hz (5-pole) roofing filter instead of upgrading to the 2.8 kHz (8-pole) filter.
>
> PS - I just bought the KRX3 option and purchased it with the stock 2.7 kHz (5-pole) filter. I did spend the extra $30 to get a filter whose offset matches the offset of the filter in the main radio (-0.79).
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Bill Coleman-2

Bill,

If you are not into 'hot and heavy' contesting or DXing in a pileup
and/or diversity receive, you will find the 5 pole filters quite adequate.

The "problem" is that the 8 pole filters have a better slope factor and
do not have an offset.
The offset is only important for diversity reception, and the slope
factor is only important in situations where the band conditions are
such that there are strong signals on adjacent frequencies -- as might
be encountered in heavy contests or DX pileups.

So if you are not interested in having the optimum receive capability in
DX pileups and heavy contesting situations, save your $$$ and use the 5
pole filters. Some of us are more casual operators, and the $$$ savings
can be significant.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/20/2015 11:17 PM, Bill Coleman wrote:

Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

Well let's be clear here...

These are roofing filters, so you will only notice a difference in adjacent frequency rejection of loud signals... so if you live out in the country and don't have any loud stations near you, it’s not likely you will ever perceive a difference between 5 pole and 8 pole filters. So the decision is driven more by the degree of loud stations operating adjacent to you... than by the type of operating you do.

Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ

Owner - Operator
Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
Staunton, Illinois

Owner – Operator
Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
Rent it at: http://www.vrbo.com/487375

email: [hidden email]

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 11:23 PM
To: Bill Coleman; Mike Zbrozek
Cc: Elecraft
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

Bill,

If you are not into 'hot and heavy' contesting or DXing in a pileup
and/or diversity receive, you will find the 5 pole filters quite adequate.

The "problem" is that the 8 pole filters have a better slope factor and
do not have an offset.
The offset is only important for diversity reception, and the slope
factor is only important in situations where the band conditions are
such that there are strong signals on adjacent frequencies -- as might
be encountered in heavy contests or DX pileups.

So if you are not interested in having the optimum receive capability in
DX pileups and heavy contesting situations, save your $$$ and use the 5
pole filters. Some of us are more casual operators, and the $$$ savings
can be significant.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 1/20/2015 11:17 PM, Bill Coleman wrote:

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Jim Brown-10

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

On Tue,1/20/2015 9:23 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> If you are not into 'hot and heavy' contesting or DXing in a pileup
> and/or diversity receive, you will find the 5 pole filters quite
> adequate.

I agree completely. I'm a contester, so I have tight 8-pole filters.
I've often advised those who are not contesters to go with no additional
roofing filters and add only on the air experience has taught them that
they need. K2AV and I are both contesters (and engineers), and we have
independently arrived at the same point.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

> I'm a contester, < >> so I have tight 8-pole filters.<< >>> I've often advised those who are not contesters to go with no additional
roofing filters and add only on the air experience has taught them that
they need. <<<
Jim, I really hate to burst your bubble, you being a CONTESTER and all.However! On any given contest weekend, the Non Contester are the ones who really need the"Tight Filters" because some inconsiderate holier than god contester will start calling CQ 1500 hz next to
an existing QSO. (14.300) catches HELL during contest weekend.
I'm really glad that you are a Contester, but I get the impression from your audacious statementthat if one is not among the coveted contesters then they would not know the need of such sophisticatedgadgetry.

>>>>> K2AV and I are both contesters (and engineers), and we have
independently arrived at the same point. <<<<<

The level of Snobbery here has crested the previous water mark.
I guess Ham Radio is only for CONTESTERS.
Just my $0.02 worth.

((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS

From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 12:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

On Tue,1/20/2015 9:23 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> If you are not into 'hot and heavy' contesting or DXing in a pileup
> and/or diversity receive, you will find the 5 pole filters quite
> adequate.

I agree completely. I'm a contester, so I have tight 8-pole filters.
I've often advised those who are not contesters to go with no additional
roofing filters and add only on the air experience has taught them that
they need. K2AV and I are both contesters (and engineers), and we have
independently arrived at the same point.

73, Jim K9YC
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Jim Brown-10

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

On Tue,1/20/2015 11:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> The level of Snobbery here has crested the previous water mark.

Not snobbery at all. I'm simply trying to save people money by advising
them not to buy stuff they don't need. Someone who wants to operate on a
crowded band needs narrow filters. it sounds like you and your friends do.

The contesters I know are up to here with "nets" comprised of operators
with ancient and el cheapo radios defending the frequencies they "own,"
justifying their "ownership" by calling them traffic nets, or "maritime
nets" but almost never passing traffic and never checking in anyone on a
boat, and rarely doing much more than checking in. Now, there's nothing
wrong with any of that, but it gives those operators no more right to
the frequency they have selected than the contester who hears an empty
frequency, asks QRL?, hears nothing, and calls CQ.

I take pride in a very clean and narrow signal. My K3 with power amp has
a -40 dB SSB bandwidth less than 3.5 kHz. If you want to operate next to
me, you need to bring a good radio to the party. And I'm not going to
QSY because you don't. And If I've established a run frequency and
you've decided it's time for your "net," you can look for an empty
frequency, just like I had to.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!!!
> The contesters I know are up to here with "nets" comprised of operators
> with ancient and el cheapo radios defending the frequencies they "own,"
> justifying their "ownership" by calling them traffic nets, or "maritime
> nets" but almost never passing traffic and never checking in anyone on a
> boat, and rarely doing much more than checking in. Now, there's nothing
> wrong with any of that, but it gives those operators no more right to
> the frequency they have selected than the contester who hears an empty
> frequency, asks QRL?, hears nothing, and calls CQ.ANCIENT AND EL CHEAPO - Reeks with Condescension.
There are documented instances where the Maritime Net has come to the assistance of distressedboaters on the high sea.
Copied from the previous post.
> Sadly, when a major contest comes around i am forced to hide on the WARC bands.
> If not "open" then i find something else to do. > I have all 8 pole filters but they dont help when a rude station blasts away less tha 1kc up/down from me running crap audio, an amp > getting its ring flogged and a rig with all the knobs slammed to the right.> Oh, and we cop it from EU and the US.....Geography is irrevelant it seems..> No point in asking either.....> It is what it is i guess. > 73 > Gary
> Vk1ZZ
Ham Radio is not only about Contesting!

((((73)))) Milverton.

From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

On Tue,1/20/2015 11:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> The level of Snobbery here has crested the previous water mark.

Not snobbery at all. I'm simply trying to save people money by advising
them not to buy stuff they don't need. Someone who wants to operate on a
crowded band needs narrow filters. it sounds like you and your friends do.

The contesters I know are up to here with "nets" comprised of operators
with ancient and el cheapo radios defending the frequencies they "own,"
justifying their "ownership" by calling them traffic nets, or "maritime
nets" but almost never passing traffic and never checking in anyone on a
boat, and rarely doing much more than checking in. Now, there's nothing
wrong with any of that, but it gives those operators no more right to
the frequency they have selected than the contester who hears an empty
frequency, asks QRL?, hears nothing, and calls CQ.

I take pride in a very clean and narrow signal. My K3 with power amp has
a -40 dB SSB bandwidth less than 3.5 kHz. If you want to operate next to
me, you need to bring a good radio to the party. And I'm not going to
QSY because you don't. And If I've established a run frequency and
you've decided it's time for your "net," you can look for an empty
frequency, just like I had to.

73, Jim K9YC

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Mike Harris-9

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Dr. William J. Schmidt, II

K3 with sub RX here. Both with stock 2.7kHz and five pole 500Hz
filters. Not a contester but haunt DX and DXped piles. I have a
neighbour 300 metres away with a 9+60 signal from another brand
transceiver that fills any band he is on with S5 noise, somewhat less on
adjacent bands but still there. Inclusion of a band filter between his
transceiver and linear cures the adjacent band problem. A visiting K3
at the same location being used on SSB whilst I was on CW was not known
to be on the band until I saw a spot. A quick check revealed that I
could get within +/- 35kHz before noise became a problem. At that point
I was till copying a VE SSB mobile at S2-3 without difficulty.

The nice thing about the K3 is you can tell it lies about the filter
setup, both width and offset. Both my unmatched filter pairs have
exactly the same offset, I told the K3 they had. As far as I am aware
this information is only used in the maths used to set the syth
frequencies to make sure the filters are suitably positioned with
respect to the desired audio passband. A 500Hz filter passband window
error of a few tens of Hz is not an issue. I believe the "matched"
filters are only good for 10Hz, could be wrong there.

Five pole works for me.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 21/01/2015 02:55, Dr. William J. Schmidt, II wrote:

> Well let's be clear here...
>
> These are roofing filters, so you will only notice a difference in adjacent frequency rejection of loud signals... so if you live out in the country and don't have any loud stations near you, it’s not likely you will ever perceive a difference between 5 pole and 8 pole filters. So the decision is driven more by the degree of loud stations operating adjacent to you... than by the type of operating you do.
>
>
> Dr. William J. Schmidt - K9HZ J68HZ 8P6HK ZF2HZ PJ4/K9HZ VP5/K9HZ PJ2/K9HZ
>
> Owner - Operator
> Big Signal Ranch – K9ZC
> Staunton, Illinois
>
> Owner – Operator
> Villa Grand Piton – J68HZ
> Soufriere, St. Lucia W.I.
> Rent it at: http://www.vrbo.com/487375
>
> email: [hidden email]
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Don Wilhelm
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 11:23 PM
> To: Bill Coleman; Mike Zbrozek
> Cc: Elecraft
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters
>
> Bill,
>
> If you are not into 'hot and heavy' contesting or DXing in a pileup
> and/or diversity receive, you will find the 5 pole filters quite adequate.
>
> The "problem" is that the 8 pole filters have a better slope factor and
> do not have an offset.
> The offset is only important for diversity reception, and the slope
> factor is only important in situations where the band conditions are
> such that there are strong signals on adjacent frequencies -- as might
> be encountered in heavy contests or DX pileups.
>
> So if you are not interested in having the optimum receive capability in
> DX pileups and heavy contesting situations, save your $$$ and use the 5
> pole filters. Some of us are more casual operators, and the $$$ savings
> can be significant.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 1/20/2015 11:17 PM, Bill Coleman wrote:
>>> On Jan 13, 2015, at 10:52 PM, Mike Zbrozek <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> As a cw opr that is planning on buying a K3 next month I would
>>> like to know how many cw ops use/prefer 5 or 8 pole cw filters?
>>> Does anybody use the 1000 Hz 8 pole filter for hunting cq's then
>>> switch over to a 500 or 400 Hz filter? And how many cw ops use a sharper 200 or 250 Hz filter?
>>>
>>> Tnx in Advance
>>>
>>> Mike Zbrozek, K8XF
>> I’m going to buck the trend a little bit. I only have one 8-pole filter — the 13 kHz FM filter.
>>
>> I see posts from a lot of guys who have a radio full of 8-pole filters. That’s nice — if you can afford it. Those filters are expensive.
>>
>> During the five years I spent dreaming of owning a K3, I had thought I only wanted to have the 8-pole filters. However, my wife (the best XYL ever!) ordered a very stock K3 for me for Christmas, and it came with the 2700 Hz (5-pole) filter. Swapping out this filter after the fact for the 2800 (8-pole) filter is even more expensive than ordering it in the first place.
>>
>> Because of the expense, I used the stock filter for about six months before contemplating anything. I bought the 13 kHz filter because it gave me FM and AM receive and transmit capability. I got the 500 Hz (5-pole) filter because someone offered it on this list at a greatly discounted price.
>>
>> The key thing to remember about the K3 is that the DSP IS your filter! You don’t have to buy any of those expensive crystal filters. PERIOD. The radio works great with just the stock filter.
>>
>> Do the expensive crystal filters make a difference? Yes. The 500 Hz filter makes a difference. I’ve got it configured to kick in at 450 Hz. There’s a distinct difference in the audio background noise switching to 450 from 500. During the 160m CW contest, this filter knocks down a lot of adjacent channel interference. I’m glad I have a narrow roofing filter available for CW, PSK and RTTY work.

Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

> Ham Radio is not only about Contesting!

Neither is ham radio about bunch of "Nets" that only serve as claims
to frequencies in direct contravention to the license terms of those
who make them.

THERE ARE MARITIME DISTRESS FREQUENCIES FOR THOSE ACTIVITIES! ANYONE
WHO GOES ON THE WATER WITHOUT PROPER EQUIPMENT AND EXPECTS TO USE HAM
RADIO TO BAIL HIS/HER BUT OUT IS A FOOL.

That the Maritime Service Net has bailed out fools who were too cheap
to purchase/install proper safety equipment only proves that the nets
are populated by equal numbers of fools intent on enabling dangerous
and foolish behavior.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-01-21 6:56 AM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:

> I DO NOT BELIEVE THIS!!!!!
> > The contesters I know are up to here with "nets" comprised of operators
> > with ancient and el cheapo radios defending the frequencies they "own,"
> > justifying their "ownership" by calling them traffic nets, or "maritime
> > nets" but almost never passing traffic and never checking in anyone on a
> > boat, and rarely doing much more than checking in. Now, there's nothing
> > wrong with any of that, but it gives those operators no more right to
> > the frequency they have selected than the contester who hears an empty
> > frequency, asks QRL?, hears nothing, and calls CQ.ANCIENT AND EL CHEAPO - Reeks with Condescension.
> There are documented instances where the Maritime Net has come to the assistance of distressedboaters on the high sea.
> Copied from the previous post.
> > Sadly, when a major contest comes around i am forced to hide on the WARC bands.
> > If not "open" then i find something else to do. > I have all 8 pole filters but they dont help when a rude station blasts away less tha 1kc up/down from me running crap audio, an amp > getting its ring flogged and a rig with all the knobs slammed to the right.> Oh, and we cop it from EU and the US.....Geography is irrevelant it seems..> No point in asking either.....> It is what it is i guess. > 73 > Gary
> > Vk1ZZ
> Ham Radio is not only about Contesting!
>
>
> ((((73)))) Milverton.
>
>
>
> From: Jim Brown <[hidden email]>
> To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 2:57 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters
>
> On Tue,1/20/2015 11:34 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> The level of Snobbery here has crested the previous water mark.
>
> Not snobbery at all. I'm simply trying to save people money by advising
> them not to buy stuff they don't need. Someone who wants to operate on a
> crowded band needs narrow filters. it sounds like you and your friends do.
>
> The contesters I know are up to here with "nets" comprised of operators
> with ancient and el cheapo radios defending the frequencies they "own,"
> justifying their "ownership" by calling them traffic nets, or "maritime
> nets" but almost never passing traffic and never checking in anyone on a
> boat, and rarely doing much more than checking in. Now, there's nothing
> wrong with any of that, but it gives those operators no more right to
> the frequency they have selected than the contester who hears an empty
> frequency, asks QRL?, hears nothing, and calls CQ.
>
> I take pride in a very clean and narrow signal. My K3 with power amp has
> a -40 dB SSB bandwidth less than 3.5 kHz. If you want to operate next to
> me, you need to bring a good radio to the party. And I'm not going to
> QSY because you don't. And If I've established a run frequency and
> you've decided it's time for your "net," you can look for an empty
> frequency, just like I had to.
>
>
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

daleputnam

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

And If I've established a run frequency and
> you've decided it's time for your "net," you can look for an empty
> frequency, just like I had to.

You're right Jim... however.. a qrp op doesn't have that "right" he has
to move... when the "Other mindset op" comes on... so.. I'll speak up here.

"We own it... We've been here at this time for the last 150 years!! "
ok.. fine..
But the one that gets me.. is the
"We can't change freq.. because no one will find us."
Don't they have vfos? I'm pretty sure that most of the radios used in nets today have
vfos. And.. I'm pretty sure that if the operators don't know how to use the vfo, and their
own skills to find the NCS.. they need to learn how.. and now would be a good time.

I'm proud of my K2(s) and I expect anyone with almost any radio to be able to operate
within a few cycles of me... They do all the time now... but not for long..
I move. It's kinda funny tho.. I can move and still make Qs.. many times I tune back
and find they have given up moved on, calling empty returns... on a very productive freq
for me.

Part of the game, I suppose.
Have a great day,

--... ...--
Dale - WC7S in Wy

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

>>> " EXPECTS TO USE HAM RADIO TO BAIL HIS/HER BUT OUT IS A FOOL." <<<
Amazing!

((((73)))) Milverton / W9MMS

From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Bulk] 8 or5 Pole cw filters

> Ham Radio is not only about Contesting!

Neither is ham radio about bunch of "Nets" that only serve as claims
to frequencies in direct contravention to the license terms of those
who make them.

THERE ARE MARITIME DISTRESS FREQUENCIES FOR THOSE ACTIVITIES! ANYONE
WHO GOES ON THE WATER WITHOUT PROPER EQUIPMENT AND EXPECTS TO USE HAM
RADIO TO BAIL HIS/HER BUT OUT IS A FOOL.

That the Maritime Service Net has bailed out fools who were too cheap
to purchase/install proper safety equipment only proves that the nets
are populated by equal numbers of fools intent on enabling dangerous
and foolish behavior.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 2015-01-21 6:56 AM, Milverton M. Swire via Elecraft wrote:

>
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