A Different View--K3 Reduced-bandwidth RTTY Analysis

[Hank Garretson]

Andy, K0SM has a very nice look at the K3 reduced-bandwidth FSK keying.
(Now available to all as Beta DSP rev. 2.8.)

http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/

It is also interesting to look at before and after FSK signals in the time
domain.

https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK

K3 FSK has always had a small amplitude difference between mark and space.
The transition has always been abrupt, Photo 1. With the new beta software,
the transition is much more gentle, Photo 2. Bravo!

Diddle Exuberantly,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
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[Milt -- N5IA]

Since I am NOT a RTTY operator I am asking if this DSP software revision is
applicable to other modes.

I would presume it is, but obviously not with the same type of cleanup
required with the RTTY artefacts.

Please expand the conversation to include CW and SSB.

Thank you in advance.

de Milt, N5IA


-----Original Message-----
From: Hank Garretson
Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 12:59 PM
To: Elecraft Reflector ; [hidden email] ; RTTY Reflector
Cc: Ben Grokett
Subject: [Elecraft] A Different View--K3 Reduced-bandwidth RTTY Analysis

Andy, K0SM has a very nice look at the K3 reduced-bandwidth FSK keying.
(Now available to all as Beta DSP rev. 2.8.)

http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/

It is also interesting to look at before and after FSK signals in the time
domain.

https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK

K3 FSK has always had a small amplitude difference between mark and space.
The transition has always been abrupt, Photo 1. With the new beta software,
the transition is much more gentle, Photo 2. Bravo!

Diddle Exuberantly,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
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Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6196 - Release Date: 03/22/13



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[Ed Muns, W0YK]

As far as I know, this enhanced DSP filtering is only on the K3 FSK
transmitted signal.  There is no impact on other modes, digital or
otherwise, only FSK-D.

Ed W0YK

 

Milt N5IA wrote:
> Since I am NOT a RTTY operator I am asking if this DSP
> software revision is applicable to other modes.
>
> I would presume it is, but obviously not with the same type
> of cleanup required with the RTTY artefacts.
>
> Please expand the conversation to include CW and SSB.

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[mcduffie]

On Mon, 25 Mar 2013 12:59:39 -0700, Hank Garretson wrote:

> Andy, K0SM has a very nice look at the K3 reduced-bandwidth FSK keying.
> (Now available to all as Beta DSP rev. 2.8.)
>
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/

I'm not a K3 owner, but that is quite impressive.  Very well done.   I'm
wondering if there is any work being done along those lines for CW?

Gary
--
http://ag0n.net
3055: http://ag0n.net/irlp/3055
NodeOp Help Page: http://ag0n.net/irlp
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[alsopb]

I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks have
the same amplitude.

Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY tones.

Hopefully that is fixed too.

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 3/25/2013 19:59, Hank Garretson wrote:

>
>
>
>
> Andy, K0SM has a very nice look at the K3 reduced-bandwidth FSK keying.
> (Now available to all as Beta DSP rev. 2.8.)
>
> http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/
>
> It is also interesting to look at before and after FSK signals in the
> time domain.
>
> https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK
>
> K3 FSK has always had a small amplitude difference between mark and
> space. The transition has always been abrupt, Photo 1. With the new beta
> software, the transition is much more gentle, Photo 2. Bravo!
>
> Diddle Exuberantly,
>
> Hank, W6SX
>
> Mammoth Lakes, California
>
> Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
>
>
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[Hank Garretson]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Brian Alsop <[hidden email]> wrote:

I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks have the
> same amplitude.
>
> Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY tones.
>
> Hopefully that is fixed too.
>

Not fixed. See the before and after photos.
https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK

Which brings up one of my crotchets.

One of the most useful and important station accessories is an
oscilloscope. Much more useful than one of those multi-hundred dollar watt
meters--who cares if it is 150 or 153 watts?

An oscilloscope centered before your eyes can instantly tell you a whole
bunch about your signal.

Is your keying too hard? Are you overmodulating? Are you overcompressing?
Are your RTTY mark and space different in amplitude? Is your amplifier
adjusted correctly? Do you have the right antenna for the right band
selected? Has something gone wrong with your antenna? Do you have hum on
your signal? Etcetera.

If more hams had a monitor scope, we wouldn't have so many rotten signals
on the air.

73,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
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[Gary Gregory-2]

Now for an upgrade release of the P3 Tx monitoring. Long awaited.

Gary

On 26 March 2013 07:11, Garretson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Brian Alsop <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks have the
> > same amplitude.
> >
> > Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY tones.
> >
> > Hopefully that is fixed too.
> >
>
> Not fixed. See the before and after photos.
> https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK
>
> Which brings up one of my crotchets.
>
> One of the most useful and important station accessories is an
> oscilloscope. Much more useful than one of those multi-hundred dollar watt
> meters--who cares if it is 150 or 153 watts?
>
> An oscilloscope centered before your eyes can instantly tell you a whole
> bunch about your signal.
>
> Is your keying too hard? Are you overmodulating? Are you overcompressing?
> Are your RTTY mark and space different in amplitude? Is your amplifier
> adjusted correctly? Do you have the right antenna for the right band
> selected? Has something gone wrong with your antenna? Do you have hum on
> your signal? Etcetera.
>
> If more hams had a monitor scope, we wouldn't have so many rotten signals
> on the air.
>
> 73,
>
> Hank, W6SX
>
> Mammoth Lakes, California
>
> Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
*Gary - VK1ZZ
Skype: Gary.VK1ZZ
Motorhome Portable
The Shack*
*Elecraft K3
P3 Panadapter
KPA500FT
KAT500FT**
KX3-K
*
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How do you (the people who use FSK) key the radio through the RTTY program?  I
am using AFSK and have good experiences, but I wonder how keying is done through
the software.

Lee - K0WA


 In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply.  If you don't
have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it.  If you can't find any
Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense.  Is Common
Sense divine?

Common Sense is the image of the Creator expressing revealed truth in my mind.
-  John W. (Kansas)

Never interfere with anything that isn't bothering you.






________________________________
From: Hank Garretson <[hidden email]>
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
RTTY Reflector <[hidden email]>
Cc: Ben Grokett <[hidden email]>
Sent: Mon, March 25, 2013 3:00:26 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] A Different View--K3 Reduced-bandwidth RTTY Analysis

Andy, K0SM has a very nice look at the K3 reduced-bandwidth FSK keying.
(Now available to all as Beta DSP rev. 2.8.)

http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/

It is also interesting to look at before and after FSK signals in the time
domain.

https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK

K3 FSK has always had a small amplitude difference between mark and space.
The transition has always been abrupt, Photo 1. With the new beta software,
the transition is much more gentle, Photo 2. Bravo!

Diddle Exuberantly,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
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[Dave Hachadorian]

>I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks
>have the same amplitude.

>Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the
>RTTY tones.

>Hopefully that is fixed too.

That is not fixed.  I have two K3's, and have been running
reduced bandwidth firmware for a couple of months now.  An LED
wattmeter still shows significant flickering as RTTY is being
sent, and screen current on a tetrode amp shows a lot of
variation on its analog meter.

What I see, on both K3's here, is a brief 7% power spike upward
when the FSK input is shorted,  and a brief 7% power spike
downward when the FSK input is opened.  Steady-state mark and
space rf amplitudes are equal. The transients occur only at the
transitions.  This experiment was repeated with DSP v 2.81 and is
unchanged from earlier versions.  I guess, if the signal is
clean, it's nothing to worry about, but it sure looks weird to
see all that flickering going on.  I remember on my old TS-850, I
could check amplifier tuning while rtty was being sent, but with
the K3, I don't feel comfortable doing that.


Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona












.

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[alsopb]

Interesting. At at least the transition between the mark and space
amplitudes are smoothed some.  I wonder how many db in spectrum purity
that buys. If it buys something, imagine what no transition would buy.

73 de Brian/K3KO



On 3/25/2013 21:11, Hank Garretson wrote:

>
>
> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Brian Alsop <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks
>     have the same amplitude.
>
>     Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY
>     tones.
>
>     Hopefully that is fixed too.
>
>
> Not fixed. See the before and after photos.
> https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK
>
> Which brings up one of my crotchets.
>
> One of the most useful and important station accessories is an
> oscilloscope. Much more useful than one of those multi-hundred dollar
> watt meters--who cares if it is 150 or 153 watts?
>
> An oscilloscope centered before your eyes can instantly tell you a whole
> bunch about your signal.
>
> Is your keying too hard? Are you overmodulating? Are you
> overcompressing? Are your RTTY mark and space different in amplitude? Is
> your amplifier adjusted correctly? Do you have the right antenna for the
> right band selected? Has something gone wrong with your antenna? Do you
> have hum on your signal? Etcetera.
>
> If more hams had a monitor scope, we wouldn't have so many rotten
> signals on the air.
>
> 73,
>
> Hank, W6SX
>
> Mammoth Lakes, California
>
> Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
>
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
> Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5703 - Release Date: 03/25/13
>

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5703 - Release Date: 03/25/13

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[wayne burdick]

On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:23 PM, AG0N-3055 wrote:

>> Andy, K0SM has a very nice look at the K3 reduced-bandwidth FSK  
>> keying.
>> (Now available to all as Beta DSP rev. 2.8.)
>>
>> http://www.frontiernet.net/~aflowers/k3beta/
>
> I'm not a K3 owner, but that is quite impressive.  Very well done.    
> I'm
> wondering if there is any work being done along those lines for CW?


The K3 and KX3 use an optimal, raised-cosine (sigmoidal or S-shaped)  
keying envelope. As a result, both rigs have CW keying that's crisp  
but occupies very little bandwidth. The consensus is that it's just  
about perfect already.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


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[Hank Garretson]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 2:28 PM, Lee Buller <[hidden email]> wrote:

How do you (the people who use FSK) key the radio through the RTTY program?
>  I
> am using AFSK and have good experiences, but I wonder how keying is done
> through
> the software.
>

Using a simple transistor keying circuit attached to K3 Accessory jack pin
1. Check your K3 manual and pages 5 and 7 at http://www.aa5au.com/rtty.html.

73,

Hank, W6SX

Mammoth Lakes, California

Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

> What I see, on both K3's here, is a brief 7% power spike upward when
> the FSK input is shorted, and a brief 7% power spike downward when
> the FSK input is opened.

Expect to see more change on keying edges with shaped/filtered/band
limited FSK.  Even shaped AFSK from 2Tone/cocoamodem/fldigi show
significant AM effects when switching from tone to tone.  Running the
band limited AFSK through hard limiting (driving an amplifier into
compression) will widen the signal out (although not as much as driving
a mic preamp into clipping).

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


On 3/25/2013 5:34 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:

>> I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks have
>> the same amplitude.
>
>> Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY tones.
>
>> Hopefully that is fixed too.
>
> That is not fixed.  I have two K3's, and have been running reduced
> bandwidth firmware for a couple of months now.  An LED wattmeter still
> shows significant flickering as RTTY is being sent, and screen current
> on a tetrode amp shows a lot of variation on its analog meter.
>
> What I see, on both K3's here, is a brief 7% power spike upward when the
> FSK input is shorted,  and a brief 7% power spike downward when the FSK
> input is opened.  Steady-state mark and space rf amplitudes are equal.
> The transients occur only at the transitions.  This experiment was
> repeated with DSP v 2.81 and is unchanged from earlier versions.  I
> guess, if the signal is clean, it's nothing to worry about, but it sure
> looks weird to see all that flickering going on.  I remember on my old
> TS-850, I could check amplifier tuning while rtty was being sent, but
> with the K3, I don't feel comfortable doing that.
>
>
> Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
> Yuma, Arizona
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

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[Jim Brown-10]

On 3/25/2013 2:34 PM, Dave Hachadorian wrote:
>> Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY
>> tones.
>
>> Hopefully that is fixed too.
>
> That is not fixed.

it is my understanding that with AFSK, at least, the cause is a bit of
ripple in the 2.7 kHz filter. I have 2.8 kHz filters in the TX position
of my K3s, and I see less of that than I did with 2.7 kHz filters. Wayne
can address how that might relate to his implementation of FSK.

There's no good reason for using FSK as opposed to AFSK with a K3 or KX3
-- several months ago, I did extensive testing with W6GJB of FSK and
AFSK (using MMTTY) and AFSK was significantly narrower than FSK.  That
was with standard firmware, not the new Beta. The 2Tone author says his
AFSK is even cleaner. We haven't looked at that yet.

73, Jim K9YC
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[alsopb]

Monty,

Perhaps I didn't explain my thinking it too well.

Apparently the normal K3 FSK implementation has both frequency shift and
amplitude shifts.  The time domain plots show an amplitude change from
mark to space.  The frequency domain plots show the frequency shift
which is FSK keying.  Both modulate the "carrier" and generate sidebands
which widen the signal.

The time domain pix show a power level change between mark and space.
In the case of the standard K3 those transitions are sharp.  In the case
of the reduced bandwidth FSK, there transition is almost a straight
line. The slower transition has to generate lower level sidebands.

For an analogy:
Take the case of a pure CW wave, it is a very narrow bandwidth signal.
Key off and on at 40 wpm and the sidebands arise.  Use Elecraft's raised
cosine to smooth the zero to full power transition and the bandwidth is
narrower and sidebands close by are much reduced.

Given the above, I stand by my conclusion that if the mark and space
powers are equalized, the sidebands close in could be reduced.  How much
is the question.  One qualification is not knowing what the improvement
provided is.  (One could in theory imagine the a brick wall filter
around the primary signal.  Then it wouldn't matter what caused the
sidebands. )

73 de Brian/K3KO

On 3/25/2013 22:39, MontyS wrote:

> No transition sounds like a square corner to me, generating all kinds of
> square wave interference.
> Monty K2DLJ
>
>
> -----Original Message----- From: Brian Alsop
> Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 5:56 PM
> Cc: ElecraftReflector
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [Elecraft_K3] A Different View--K3
> Reduced-bandwidth RTTY Analysis
>
> Interesting. At at least the transition between the mark and space
> amplitudes are smoothed some.  I wonder how many db in spectrum purity
> that buys. If it buys something, imagine what no transition would buy.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
>
>
> On 3/25/2013 21:11, Hank Garretson wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:27 PM, Brian Alsop <[hidden email]
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>     I notice that in the narrower signal spectrun the two tone peaks
>>     have the same amplitude.
>>
>>     Many of us have wondered why our watt meters diddled like the RTTY
>>     tones.
>>
>>     Hopefully that is fixed too.
>>
>>
>> Not fixed. See the before and after photos.
>> https://picasaweb.google.com/StarrGarretson/2013_03_25_K3_FSK
>>
>> Which brings up one of my crotchets.
>>
>> One of the most useful and important station accessories is an
>> oscilloscope. Much more useful than one of those multi-hundred dollar
>> watt meters--who cares if it is 150 or 153 watts?
>>
>> An oscilloscope centered before your eyes can instantly tell you a whole
>> bunch about your signal.
>>
>> Is your keying too hard? Are you overmodulating? Are you
>> overcompressing? Are your RTTY mark and space different in amplitude? Is
>> your amplifier adjusted correctly? Do you have the right antenna for the
>> right band selected? Has something gone wrong with your antenna? Do you
>> have hum on your signal? Etcetera.
>>
>> If more hams had a monitor scope, we wouldn't have so many rotten
>> signals on the air.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Hank, W6SX
>>
>> Mammoth Lakes, California
>>
>> Elevation 8083 feet in John Muir's Range of Light
>>
>> No virus found in this message.
>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
>> Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5703 - Release Date: 03/25/13
>>
>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5703 - Release Date: 03/25/13
>
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> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5703 - Release Date: 03/25/13
>
>

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5703 - Release Date: 03/25/13

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