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A modest proposal...

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N5GE

Re: A modest proposal...

Wayne et al,

I find that I never refer to the manuals that came with my Elecraft equipment. I
keep a PDF copy of the latest version and refer to it when I need to.

Perhaps you could include a "Getting Started" page or two with the factory built
units that included a simple power and antenna connection diagram that also has
the FTP address of the full blown manual.

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:11:41 -0700, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

>For now, we'll continue to send printed manuals with the kits and make
>the .pdf versions available for download.
>
>However, if you find that you don't use the paper manual, and you have
>a green streak (like me!), feel free to return it so we can reuse it.
>
>Meanwhile, I'll ask Lisa and Eric if there's a practical way for us to
>make printed manuals optional.
>
>73,
>Wayne
>N6KR
>
>
>> On 8/21/2011 1:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
>
>>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider
>>> making
>>> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a
>>> little
>>> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download
>>> the
>>> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like
>>> the K3,
>>> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
>>> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely
>>> would be
>>> a fine thing, IMHO.
>>>
>>> NH7O
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Oliver Dröse

Re: A modest proposal...

Being in the shack I usually use the PDF manual. But the printed one is
always with me when portable with the radio (and no laptop with me) ... you
don't want to be in the field and have no idea how to setup not that often
needed functions, will you? ;-)) On the other hand with KE7X's superb book
now who needs a manual anyway? ;-))

73, Olli - DH8BQA

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A modest proposal...

>
> Wayne et al,
>
> I find that I never refer to the manuals that came with my Elecraft
> equipment. I
> keep a PDF copy of the latest version and refer to it when I need to.
>
> Perhaps you could include a "Getting Started" page or two with the factory
> built
> units that included a simple power and antenna connection diagram that
> also has
> the FTP address of the full blown manual.

N5GE

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like you are talking about catalog web
sites. If you are, you have made the right choice.

Having worked in the printing and software development business, I can see both
sides of the issue. Catalogs must be updated constantly to reflect changes in
technology and price changes. Using web technology to keep them up to date is
the right choice.

I once worked for Gulf Printing in Houston, TX. At that time they were the
largest phone book and petroleum drilling equipment catalog printers in the USA.
When catalog and phone book time came around we had 24 hour a day activity with
two shifts. We all got rich from overtime pay, but the cost to SW Bell and the
petroleum equipment venders must have been horrendous. The Internet has taken
all of that away, except for small vendors.

As for Elecraft and similar businesses, trying to do what you suggest would be
very cost prohibitive due to the enormous development and maintenance cost of
that type of web application. It would probably end up making the retail cost
of their products in line with the manufacturers of seven and ten killobuck
equipment, at the same time lowering their profit margin greatly.

I suspect that Elecraft does all of it's web development, and I think they do a
good job of it.

In closing, I do agree with the OP that looking into less use of paper is a good
idea.

Sorry for the long winded reply...

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:07:40 -0700, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Actually, although the manuals are all available in the most recently updated versions as PDFs on the web site, I think another format would even be superior (in addition though, not replacing PDFs or printed).
>
>The other format is a nice interactive web site -- not merely a PDF called up with your browser but an interactive structured web "application" that includes the technical material and descriptions as well as cross linked to related items. Color of course is valuable in this kind of thing along with lots of diagrams and schematic parts. Maybe even background electronics or radio theory to deepen our understanding.
>
>Of course, this is hard to do and takes quite of design and effort to carry out -- but, we have done this in our own business for the big complicated wholesale energy markets we build. I would point you to these sites but they require logins and unless you are a registered market participant you can't get access.
>
>Or, a much easier to accomplish system is one where the technical information of the manuals is decomposed into shorter one page (target this size at least) bits of information and then you use the power of HTML linking to create the access paths needed to discover information and read material. This is a popular method for software documentation of large systems such as Microsoft or Apple. Actually, I like Apple better but maybe that is my Mac fanaticism showing through. Here is a pointer to the Mac developer pages as an example of what I mean: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/navigation/
>
>73, phil, K7PEH
>
>

[snip]

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

N5GE

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Oliver Dröse

That's a good point, Olli.

When mobile with the K3 I only use CW, so I only need to know how to connect the
antenna, power and keyer ;-)

73,
Tom
Amateur Radio Operator N5GE
ARRL Lifetime Member
QCWA Lifetime Member

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 20:03:39 +0200, Oliver Dröse <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Being in the shack I usually use the PDF manual. But the printed one is
>always with me when portable with the radio (and no laptop with me) ... you
>don't want to be in the field and have no idea how to setup not that often
>needed functions, will you? ;-)) On the other hand with KE7X's superb book
>now who needs a manual anyway? ;-))
>
>73, Olli - DH8BQA
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <[hidden email]>
>To: "Wayne Burdick" <[hidden email]>
>Cc: "Elecraft Reflector" <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:50 PM
>Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A modest proposal...
>
>
>>
>> Wayne et al,
>>
>> I find that I never refer to the manuals that came with my Elecraft
>> equipment. I
>> keep a PDF copy of the latest version and refer to it when I need to.
>>
>> Perhaps you could include a "Getting Started" page or two with the factory
>> built
>> units that included a simple power and antenna connection diagram that
>> also has
>> the FTP address of the full blown manual.
>
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

JonKG6VDW

A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

Actually the PDF format has the ability to allow comments to be added to
the PDF but this would have to be turned on by Elecraft as it is currently
turned off, at least on the documents that I have looked at.

Personally I think it is always best to give the consumer the option. That
way we can all have it our way. :)

The "Paperless Office" is a reality for many but not all. And some would go
screaming into the night if they were forced :)

I personally have stopped purchasing books, magazines, manuals or any
"printed" material much preferring to have electronic copies which I find
much more convenient and efficient. But thats just me and YMMV.

As to passing on printed manuals, it is a great tradition. But I have found
that many of my printed manuals have not survived the test of time for
various reasons up to and including getting lost or used by one of my pets
in various ways ;) So again I think I would prefer the electronic version.

JMHO

--
Thanks
Jon
KG6VDW
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Tony Estep

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Phil Hystad-3

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Phil Hystad <[hidden email]> wrote:

> ...The other format is a nice interactive web site -- not merely a PDF
> called up with your browser but an interactive structured web "application"
> that includes the technical material and descriptions...

============
Well, this is what Adobe provides for Photoshop in lieu of a manual. (This
approach is no doubt partly responsible for the huge plethora of
instructional books and websites that try to fill in what Adobe has left
out.) It has its good and bad points, but two things are for sure: it
requires a big allocation of resources, and even so it is incomplete and out
of date. Adobe of course has plenty of software resources to throw at this,
and has various ways of trying to get incremental revenues out of their
web-based help. However, Elecraft gets revenues only when they sell
hardware.

Tony KT0NY

--
http://www.isb.edu/faculty/facultydir.aspx?ddlFaculty=352
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k6dgw

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Cady, Fred

While I doubt Elecraft will give up printed manuals ... I'm in the
printed manual camp.

1. PDF's are great, at times, for example you can search them. For
"real" use, I need a book with pages to turn and a place to stick
post-its. I know you can do that in a PDF, but it's not the same.

2. I end up printing pages out of PDF manuals anyway.

3. My KE7X book is spiral bound, it lays flat, it is perfect.

4. I write and draw in my manuals on the theory that, "If I figure it
out once, I don't want to have to do it again."

5. I can't imagine assembling my K2 or KX1 from a screen.

73,

Fred K6DGW
Auburn CA

On 8/21/2011 7:29 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:
> At Visalia this past spring, while I was struggling trying to decide
> what format to publish "The K3" book, I did a survey of those
> interested and it was pretty nearly split 50/50 between printed hard
> copy and soft copy (pdf, etc).
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by hf4me

Jim,

You printed the manual locally, and if you count the ink and paper, that
cost you more than ordering an extra manual from Elecraft - and unless
you went to the trouble of printing it double-sided (and no sheets stuck
together in the process), you had twice as many sheets of paper. I
think that is false economy (if the intent is economy).

That said, I really like the .pdf files of the manual - mainly because
they can be called up without searching through a stack of paper manuals
(yes, I have a file for each Elecraft product manual). They are great
when you are doing a search - that is easy to accomplish and works quite
nicely. I have those files on a networked file server so I can access
them from any computer in the house - the workbench is not in the same
place as the hamshack, and I answer email from yet another computer, so
that give me access to those reference files at any location I choose.

However, when doing assembly or troubleshooting, I find no substitute
for a printed manual and printed schematics. I cannot do that
effectively on a computer screen. The printed manual is essential for
me at the workbench. I think many others are the same - we need both,
each has its own purpose - Elecraft is doing it right - don't monkey
with what works and works quite well.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/20/2011 9:41 PM, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:
> I went online and downloaded and printed my own assembly manual. I had read
> it completely twice before my K3 arrived.
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Ralph Parker

Re: A modest proposal

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

>Elecraft is doing it right -
>don't monkey with what works and works quite well.

Amen to that, Don!
That applies to ALL the products, not just the manuals, IMHO.
I'd hate to see my Elecraft stuff 'fiddled to death'.

Ralph, VE7XF

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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: A modest proposal...[END of Thread]

Administrator

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

This thread and its variants have been ended.

Folks, This thread has way exceeded the posting volume limit. Please self limit and do not reply to high volume threads like this in the future. It is not necessary to argue out every deatil on OT threads.

73,
Eric WA6HHQ
List Moderator

www.elecraft.com
_..._

On Aug 21, 2011, at 4:47 PM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jim,
>
> You printed the manual locally, and if you count the ink and paper, that
> cost you more than ordering an extra manual from Elecraft - and unless
> you went to the trouble of printing it double-sided (and no sheets stuck
> together in the process), you had twice as many sheets of paper. I
> think that is false economy (if the intent is economy).
>
> That said, I really like the .pdf files of the manual - mainly because
> they can be called up without searching through a stack of paper manuals
> (yes, I have a file for each Elecraft product manual). They are great
> when you are doing a search - that is easy to accomplish and works quite
> nicely. I have those files on a networked file server so I can access
> them from any computer in the house - the workbench is not in the same
> place as the hamshack, and I answer email from yet another computer, so
> that give me access to those reference files at any location I choose.
>
> However, when doing assembly or troubleshooting, I find no substitute
> for a printed manual and printed schematics. I cannot do that
> effectively on a computer screen. The printed manual is essential for
> me at the workbench. I think many others are the same - we need both,
> each has its own purpose - Elecraft is doing it right - don't monkey
> with what works and works quite well.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/20/2011 9:41 PM, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:
>> I went online and downloaded and printed my own assembly manual. I had read
>> it completely twice before my K3 arrived.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Mike Reublin

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by hf4me

A double hernia precludes me putting a monitor on my stomach when I'm lying in bed or
on the couch (my preferred reading spots). :-P
I took my KE7X pdf on a cd to Office Depot and they printed a very nice spiral bound
book with clear plastic cover and plastic back for less than I could have bought the
printed copy from Lulu. Best of both worlds.

To support those with no internet connection, a cd can be shipped. The production
cost would have to be a fraction of the cost of printing.

73, Mike NF4L - and no, the "L" doesn't stand for Luddite.....

On 8/20/2011 9:41 PM, Jim Miller KG0KP wrote:

> I went online and downloaded and printed my own assembly manual. I had read
> it completely twice before my K3 arrived. I could not have done this if I
> had to wait for a printed manual to come with my radio and most likely would
> not have read it as carefully as I did waiting for my K3. I was not in a
> rush to get-er-done. I learned a lot studying the assembly instructions
> without having the radio parts to look at and many times I had to read a
> passage carefully more than once to understand what they were talking about
> since I could not look at the part or area of the radio pictured. I would
> not want to bypass the experience and knowledge gained by printing my own
> instructions. I did not use the book that came with the radio as I had a
> newer one downloaded that had just been released when my radio arrived.
>
> 73, de Jim KG0KP - K3 #1442
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Gary Gregory"<[hidden email]>
> To: "Doug Turnbull"<[hidden email]>
> Cc:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A modest proposal...
>
>
>> The original suggestion was to make the paper manual 'optional' at time of
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: A modest proposal...

Administrator

In reply to this post by John Ragle

Guys - We ended this thread yesterday. Several times. Please no more
posts on this topic. Its been covered in exquisite detail :-)

73, Eric WA6HHQ
Elecraft Lisa Moderator - Really!

---
www.elecraft.com

On 8/21/2011 3:56 AM, John Ragle wrote:

> An excellent suggestion! Many manufacturers already do this, e.g. my
> Samsung Galaxy Tab comes with a bare piece of "getting started" paper,
> but on-line there is an excellent 144 page (3.2 MB) "users' manual."
>
> I have owned or now own several pieces of Elecraft hardware, and in no
> case have I ever refered to the printed manual (either "Assembly" or
> "Users''"). To me the production of pretty-printed paper manuals is
> twice a nuisance: (1) it is a waste of paper and manufacturers' process
> time, and (2) it is an aggravation for me because of the storage problem
> -- I have manuals of practically every description, size and color, and
> they just take up shelf space.
>
> Storing a manual as a PDF file is a very efficient use of space. My
> "manuals" folder contains 280 files in 51 sub-folders, and takes up only
> 226 MB of disk space. Storage is dirt-cheap these days; I chuckle over
> my first, 5MB, hard drive that was three times the size of my K3, and
> the "disk packs" I carried around to stick in the "washing machines"
> that used them.
>
> Moreover, once one frees oneself from the rather squinty corporate
> attitude of Adobe embodied in "Adobe Acrobat" and uses "after-market"
> PDF editors (some of which are free), one has a quite natural way of
> incorporating the small "erratum/errata" changes that usually accompany
> hardware evolution.
>
> Take note, Elecraft, and join the wave of the twentieth century!
>
> John Ragle -- W1ZI
>
> =====
>
> On 8/21/2011 4:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider making
>> paper manuals an optional item at check out time.
> ______________________________________________________________
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Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: A modest proposal...

Administrator

Hmmm - Typing too fast. I meant 'List' Moderator.

Don't tell Lisa!

73, Eric

---
www.elecraft.com

On 8/22/2011 4:14 PM, Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ, Elecraft wrote:

> Guys - We ended this thread yesterday. Several times. Please no more
> posts on this topic. Its been covered in exquisite detail :-)
>
> 73, Eric WA6HHQ
> Elecraft Lisa Moderator - Really!
>
> ---
> www.elecraft.com
>
>