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A modest proposal...

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Alastair Couper

A modest proposal...

I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider making
paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a little
money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download the
info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like the K3,
one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely would be
a fine thing, IMHO.

NH7O
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John Ragle

Re: A modest proposal...

An excellent suggestion! Many manufacturers already do this, e.g. my
Samsung Galaxy Tab comes with a bare piece of "getting started" paper,
but on-line there is an excellent 144 page (3.2 MB) "users' manual."

I have owned or now own several pieces of Elecraft hardware, and in no
case have I ever refered to the printed manual (either "Assembly" or
"Users''"). To me the production of pretty-printed paper manuals is
twice a nuisance: (1) it is a waste of paper and manufacturers' process
time, and (2) it is an aggravation for me because of the storage problem
-- I have manuals of practically every description, size and color, and
they just take up shelf space.

Storing a manual as a PDF file is a very efficient use of space. My
"manuals" folder contains 280 files in 51 sub-folders, and takes up only
226 MB of disk space. Storage is dirt-cheap these days; I chuckle over
my first, 5MB, hard drive that was three times the size of my K3, and
the "disk packs" I carried around to stick in the "washing machines"
that used them.

Moreover, once one frees oneself from the rather squinty corporate
attitude of Adobe embodied in "Adobe Acrobat" and uses "after-market"
PDF editors (some of which are free), one has a quite natural way of
incorporating the small "erratum/errata" changes that usually accompany
hardware evolution.

Take note, Elecraft, and join the wave of the twentieth century!

John Ragle -- W1ZI

=====

On 8/21/2011 4:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider making
> paper manuals an optional item at check out time.

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g3ymc

Re: A modest proposal...

On 21 Aug 2011 at 6:56, John Ragle wrote:

> > I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider
> > making paper manuals an optional item at check out time.
>

It may suit some, but I cannot see how you could sensibly build a K2
from an electronic manual. You would have to print out the relevant
pages, and it is probably cheaper for Elecraft to do this with
professional printing. I repair consumer electronics and getting proper
printouts of circuit diagrams is a constant problem. Bring back the old
paper manuals...

73 Dave G3YMC

http://www.davesergeant.com

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Raymond Sills

Re: A modest proposal...

Not to mention that fraction of builders who -do not- have internet
access. Or will be in a location without internet for an interval of
time, but want to have reference material available... for example,
when on a DXpedition.

Maybe it could be an ordering option, with a modest discount for
choosing "paperless" manuals. Since is paperless idea is "green"..
perhaps Elecraft would donate the cost of printing a manual to an
environmental fund, thereby doubling the value of not printing a manual.

Personally, I would like both options.

73 de Ray
K2ULR

On Aug 21, 2011, at 7:28 AM, Dave Sergeant wrote:

> On 21 Aug 2011 at 6:56, John Ragle wrote:
>
>>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider
>>> making paper manuals an optional item at check out time.
>>
>
> It may suit some, but I cannot see how you could sensibly build a K2
> from an electronic manual. You would have to print out the relevant
> pages, and it is probably cheaper for Elecraft to do this with
> professional printing. I repair consumer electronics and getting
> proper
> printouts of circuit diagrams is a constant problem. Bring back the
> old
> paper manuals...
>
> 73 Dave G3YMC
>
> http://www.davesergeant.com
>
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ac0h

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by John Ragle

I respectfully disagree.

If I had been presented a URL or pdf manual for my stuffed K2/100 kit
rather than the paper manuals I would have sold the kit. Looking through
my K2 manual right now there is a check mark next to every construction
step. When building the rig, I didn't mark the manual till the component
was installed correctly or the procedure completed successfully.

By using this process I eliminated a lot of problems before they ever
cropped up. I also understood the rig much better since assembly and
operator manual was one in the same. Trying to build something like a
K2/100, loaded with options, from a .pdf on a computer would have
tripled the time of assembly and no doubt produced many mistakes.

I'd be willing to say we have so many questions about the K3 and
accesories because the manusl(s) don't get read. Having a separate
assembly and operators manual was a mistake IMHO, especially having to
refer to the operators manual to finish the assembly (configuration and
alignment). Not good process. Yes, I know, a lot of K3's get sold as
assembled units not in kit form. A combined manual might still be of use
to those who don't buy the kit but want to know the basics of how one is
built. Or, they could simply skip the assembly parts.

/Beginning of OT part

The "paperless office" was/is a fallacy foisted on us by the PC/IT
industry. I work in IT, it ain't ever gonna happen. I'm planning on
retiring in 20 some years. I'd be willing to bet there are the same
number or more printers in service then as there are now.

The only thing the PC contributed to the paperless office was kill the
typewriter market and shift printing from many manual printers to not
quite so many network or locally attached printers.

/End of OT part.

Just my .03

On 8/21/2011 5:56 AM, John Ragle wrote:

> An excellent suggestion! Many manufacturers already do this, e.g. my
> Samsung Galaxy Tab comes with a bare piece of "getting started" paper,
> but on-line there is an excellent 144 page (3.2 MB) "users' manual."
>
> I have owned or now own several pieces of Elecraft hardware, and in no
> case have I ever refered to the printed manual (either "Assembly" or
> "Users''"). To me the production of pretty-printed paper manuals is
> twice a nuisance: (1) it is a waste of paper and manufacturers' process
> time, and (2) it is an aggravation for me because of the storage problem
> -- I have manuals of practically every description, size and color, and
> they just take up shelf space.

--
R. Kevin Stover

ACØH

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Doug Turnbull

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by g3ymc

The paper manuals are spiral bound and quality printed on both sides of the
page. I like the idea of saving but not this one. When it comes time to
sell in ten years at least I will have the manual to pass on.

73 Doug EI2CN

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daleputnam

Re: A modest proposal...

If I may add one comment please, someone may have a fix for it, to save untold hours of effort.
With a PDF for a manual, not a printed copy, just the pdf, on a building bench, what can be used to
make notes in the construction or on the schematic, or in the manual, to note the test results.??
In the K2 manual there are numerous points to note results that need to be referred back to, not only during
this particular moment on the bench but also in a week or two.. or a year later...
Is there any way to do this...?
It is cumbersome to write on the screen, take a photo, print the photo, clean the screen, and move to the next page... ;o)
I always lose the photo, get it out of order, have to go back and redo the tests again....

Thank you,
Have a great day,

--... ...-- Dale - WC7S in Wy

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Gary Gregory

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull

The original suggestion was to make the paper manual 'optional' at time of
order and although I do not know what price reduction this would make, it
would be good for some folks...as long as they do read the PDF manual BEFORE
asking questions that could easily be answered by reading the manual in
either form.

I have my printed manual and happy to keep it. Sure i will pass it on when I
sell the K3, after my dead fingers let go...:-)

My 2.5 cents

Gary

On 21 August 2011 22:52, Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> The paper manuals are spiral bound and quality printed on both sides of the
> page. I like the idea of saving but not this one. When it comes time to
> sell in ten years at least I will have the manual to pass on.
>
> 73 Doug EI2CN
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>

hf4me

Re: A modest proposal...

I went online and downloaded and printed my own assembly manual. I had read
it completely twice before my K3 arrived. I could not have done this if I
had to wait for a printed manual to come with my radio and most likely would
not have read it as carefully as I did waiting for my K3. I was not in a
rush to get-er-done. I learned a lot studying the assembly instructions
without having the radio parts to look at and many times I had to read a
passage carefully more than once to understand what they were talking about
since I could not look at the part or area of the radio pictured. I would
not want to bypass the experience and knowledge gained by printing my own
instructions. I did not use the book that came with the radio as I had a
newer one downloaded that had just been released when my radio arrived.

73, de Jim KG0KP - K3 #1442

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary Gregory" <[hidden email]>
To: "Doug Turnbull" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 7:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A modest proposal...

> The original suggestion was to make the paper manual 'optional' at time of

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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

While "green is good", I do not think an assembly or operator's manual
in electronic form is practical.
It would only result in most owners printing the manual locally, and
that nullifies the overall "greenness".

It is more costly for individuals to print locally than for the manual
to be printed in bulk, so the overall global cost would be increased
even if a few dollars could be saved on the kit price.

Have you ever tried to put checkmarks into an electronic manual on a
computer screen? I shudder at the thought of following a long list of
resistors or capacitors to be inserted on a computer display. It is
just too easy to lose your place - take a look at the K2 assembly if you
do not know about the lists I refer to.

How about working your way through a multipage schematic on a computer
display during troubleshooting? Printed pages are a great help in those
instances.

I agree that in many instances .pdf manual have advantages, especially
for archiving, but Elecraft already makes those available for download.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/21/2011 4:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:

> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider making
> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a little
> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download the
> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like the K3,
> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely would be
> a fine thing, IMHO.
>
> NH7O
>

Cady, Fred

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Doug Turnbull

At Visalia this past spring, while I was struggling trying to decide
what format to publish "The K3" book, I did a survey of those
interested and it was pretty nearly split 50/50 between printed hard
copy and soft copy (pdf, etc). So, that answered that question and I
decided to go both ways :-) (the customer is always right!)

KE7X
"The Elecraft K3: Design, Configuration, and Operation"
www.ke7x.com

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Doug Turnbull
Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 6:52 AM
To: 'Dave Sergeant'; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A modest proposal...

The paper manuals are spiral bound and quality printed on both sides of
the
page. I like the idea of saving but not this one. When it comes time
to
sell in ten years at least I will have the manual to pass on.

73 Doug EI2CN

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Bill K9YEQ

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

I rely completely on PDF manuals. I can usually find answers to questions through a quick and simple search. The idea to offer it as an option is green. I had my K3 factory built.

I would always want a manual if I were building, e.g., KX1, and my K2 and all it's options!

Bill
K9YEQ

Gary Gregory <[hidden email]> wrote:

The original suggestion was to make the paper manual 'optional' at time of
order and although I do not know what price reduction this would make, it
would be good for some folks...as long as they do read the PDF manual BEFORE
asking questions that could easily be answered by reading the manual in
either form.

I have my printed manual and happy to keep it. Sure i will pass it on when I
sell the K3, after my dead fingers let go...:-)

My 2.5 cents

Gary

On 21 August 2011 22:52, Doug Turnbull <[hidden email]> wrote:

--

VK4FD - Motorhome Mobile
Elecraft Equipment
K3 #679, KPA-500 #018
Living the dream!!!
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David Gilbert

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

Personally, I don't see how that suggestion saves anyone anything. The
great majority of those who order anything in kit or modular form are
going to want a printed manual, and I'd bet that at least half of any
buyer of an assembled item is going to want one as well, especially if
it is free. So all you get is a small reduction in printed manuals at
the cost of more hassle and opportunity for error on the part of
Elecraft. From a purely manufacturing point of view, variability and
the need for a decision (do I send a manual with this order or don't I?)
represent complexity and opportunity for error. How happy are folks who
wanted a manual going to be when their item arrives without it by
mistake? What is it going to cost Elecraft to expedite the shipment of one?

Eliminating paper completely may or may not be a bad thing depending
upon the situation, but if you can't do it completely it is rarely even
a good thing.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 8/21/2011 1:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider making
> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a little
> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download the
> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like the K3,
> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely would be
> a fine thing, IMHO.
>
> NH7O
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Phil Hystad-3

Re: A modest proposal...

Actually, although the manuals are all available in the most recently updated versions as PDFs on the web site, I think another format would even be superior (in addition though, not replacing PDFs or printed).

The other format is a nice interactive web site -- not merely a PDF called up with your browser but an interactive structured web "application" that includes the technical material and descriptions as well as cross linked to related items. Color of course is valuable in this kind of thing along with lots of diagrams and schematic parts. Maybe even background electronics or radio theory to deepen our understanding.

Of course, this is hard to do and takes quite of design and effort to carry out -- but, we have done this in our own business for the big complicated wholesale energy markets we build. I would point you to these sites but they require logins and unless you are a registered market participant you can't get access.

Or, a much easier to accomplish system is one where the technical information of the manuals is decomposed into shorter one page (target this size at least) bits of information and then you use the power of HTML linking to create the access paths needed to discover information and read material. This is a popular method for software documentation of large systems such as Microsoft or Apple. Actually, I like Apple better but maybe that is my Mac fanaticism showing through. Here is a pointer to the Mac developer pages as an example of what I mean: http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/navigation/

73, phil, K7PEH

On Aug 21, 2011, at 9:46 AM, David Gilbert wrote:

>
>
> Personally, I don't see how that suggestion saves anyone anything. The
> great majority of those who order anything in kit or modular form are
> going to want a printed manual, and I'd bet that at least half of any
> buyer of an assembled item is going to want one as well, especially if
> it is free. So all you get is a small reduction in printed manuals at
> the cost of more hassle and opportunity for error on the part of
> Elecraft. From a purely manufacturing point of view, variability and
> the need for a decision (do I send a manual with this order or don't I?)
> represent complexity and opportunity for error. How happy are folks who
> wanted a manual going to be when their item arrives without it by
> mistake? What is it going to cost Elecraft to expedite the shipment of one?
>
> Eliminating paper completely may or may not be a bad thing depending
> upon the situation, but if you can't do it completely it is rarely even
> a good thing.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 8/21/2011 1:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider making
>> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a little
>> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download the
>> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like the K3,
>> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
>> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely would be
>> a fine thing, IMHO.
>>
>> NH7O
> ______________________________________________________________
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wayne burdick

Re: A modest proposal...

Administrator

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

For now, we'll continue to send printed manuals with the kits and make
the .pdf versions available for download.

However, if you find that you don't use the paper manual, and you have
a green streak (like me!), feel free to return it so we can reuse it.

Meanwhile, I'll ask Lisa and Eric if there's a practical way for us to
make printed manuals optional.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On 8/21/2011 1:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:

>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider
>> making
>> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a
>> little
>> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download
>> the
>> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like
>> the K3,
>> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
>> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely
>> would be
>> a fine thing, IMHO.
>>
>> NH7O
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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KD8NNU

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

I would suggest that there is a deduct on the price if there is no
manual. But I bet if you start to remove stuff that is standard in your
BOM that your costs will go up.

In my original order I thought that I had to purchase a manual
separately and this was an expensive option. I was relieved when I
found out it was included.

I was on a tight budget when I built my K3 and built it as low cost as
possible for a starting point.

~73
Don
KD8NNU

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 1:11 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> For now, we'll continue to send printed manuals with the kits and make
> the .pdf versions available for download.
>
> However, if you find that you don't use the paper manual, and you have
> a green streak (like me!), feel free to return it so we can reuse it.
>
> Meanwhile, I'll ask Lisa and Eric if there's a practical way for us to
> make printed manuals optional.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On 8/21/2011 1:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
>
>>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider
>>> making
>>> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a
>>> little
>>> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download
>>> the
>>> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like
>>> the K3,
>>> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
>>> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely
>>> would be
>>> a fine thing, IMHO.
>>>
>>> NH7O
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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>
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KD8NNU

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by Alastair Couper

An answer by someone who understands manufacturing and a standard BOM.

~73
Don
KD8NNU

On Sun, Aug 21, 2011 at 12:46 PM, David Gilbert wrote:

> Personally, I don't see how that suggestion saves anyone anything.
> The great majority of those who order anything in kit or modular form
> are going to want a printed manual, and I'd bet that at least half of
> any buyer of an assembled item is going to want one as well,
> especially if it is free. So all you get is a small reduction in
> printed manuals at the cost of more hassle and opportunity for error
> on the part of Elecraft. From a purely manufacturing point of view,
> variability and the need for a decision (do I send a manual with this
> order or don't I?) represent complexity and opportunity for error.
> How happy are folks who wanted a manual going to be when their item
> arrives without it by mistake? What is it going to cost Elecraft to
> expedite the shipment of one?
>
> Eliminating paper completely may or may not be a bad thing depending
> upon the situation, but if you can't do it completely it is rarely
> even a good thing.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 8/21/2011 1:14 AM, Alastair Couper wrote:
>> I would like to suggest that the good folks at Elecraft consider
>> making
>> paper manuals an optional item at check out time. It could save a
>> little
>> money and paper, and some like myself are more inclined to download
>> the
>> info in any case. Especially with radios that are evolving, like the
>> K3,
>> one ends up doing this when new firmware makes the old paper manual
>> incomplete. So just being able to eliminate the paper completely
>> would be
>> a fine thing, IMHO.
>>
>> NH7O
> ______________________________________________________________
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Mike WA8BXN

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Another aspect of printed manuals is that the one that comes with the radio
is the one that matches that radio. With products that are so well updated
as Elecraft does it may be a bit of a problem several years after a radio is
bought/built determining just what version of online documents is
appropriate for that particular radio. Being able to write on paper notes
and such is very handy too. Of course updates done to the radio over time
further complicates things. I myself think that a complete manual should
come with the radio. Its also very nice to have the information online.

73 - Mike WA8BXN

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Matthew Pitts

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by ac0h

While good in theory, the lack of printed manuals has annoyed and displeased a lot of people in many different groups; I know a lot of people that have been playing video games since the mid1990's that wish the game developers would still include proper manuals with the games instead of the minimal excuses for manuals that come with them now.

Matthew Pitts
N8OHU

--- On Sun, 8/21/11, R. Kevin Stover <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: R. Kevin Stover <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A modest proposal...
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 8:42 AM

I respectfully disagree.

If I had been presented a URL or pdf manual for my stuffed K2/100 kit
rather than the paper manuals I would have sold the kit. Looking through
my K2 manual right now there is a check mark next to every construction
step. When building the rig, I didn't mark the manual till the component
was installed correctly or the procedure completed successfully.

By using this process I eliminated a lot of problems before they ever
cropped up. I also understood the rig much better since assembly and
operator manual was one in the same. Trying to build something like a
K2/100, loaded with options, from a .pdf on a computer would have
tripled the time of assembly and no doubt produced many mistakes.

I'd be willing to say we have so many questions about the K3 and
accesories because the manusl(s) don't get read. Having a separate
assembly and operators manual was a mistake IMHO, especially having to
refer to the operators manual to finish the assembly (configuration and
alignment). Not good process. Yes, I know, a lot of K3's get sold as
assembled units not in kit form. A combined manual might still be of use
to those who don't buy the kit but want to know the basics of how one is
built. Or, they could simply skip the assembly parts.

/Beginning of OT part

The "paperless office" was/is a fallacy foisted on us by the PC/IT
industry. I work in IT, it ain't ever gonna happen. I'm planning on
retiring in 20 some years. I'd be willing to bet there are the same
number or more printers in service then as there are now.

The only thing the PC contributed to the paperless office was kill the
typewriter market and shift printing from many manual printers to not
quite so many network or locally attached printers.

/End of OT part.

Just my .03

On 8/21/2011 5:56 AM, John Ragle wrote:

--
R. Kevin Stover

ACØH

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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Rick Dettinger-3

Re: A modest proposal...

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

It should be possible to just treat them like any other option, such
as filters or tuners. They would need a part number.
If a customer wants one, they would order and pay for it. If not,
they would not have to buy for something that they didn't need. In my
case, I would need them, as I don't have a computer in my shack.

73,
Rick Dettinger K7MW

>
> Meanwhile, I'll ask Lisa and Eric if there's a practical way for us to
> make printed manuals optional.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>

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