A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

[Larry Boekeloo]

Just make the choices an option in the config setting.  Then, like everything else on my beloved K3, it'll work the way i want it to work.


Larry, KN8N
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[Lynn W. Taylor, WB6UUT]

Be aware that this can be a huge problem when dealing with support or
asking for help, or even when someone walks up to your radio and theirs
works differently.

I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I can see flaws in all of
the suggestions.

For example, blinking a LED when transmitting means the operator has to
notice that the LED isn't blinking and should be.

Warning that you aren't operating "split" is an annoyance if you aren't
working a DX station running splits.

-- Lynn

On 2/18/2015 10:19 AM, Larry Boekeloo wrote:
> Just make the choices an option in the config setting.  Then, like everything else on my beloved K3, it'll work the way i want it to work.
>
>
> Larry, KN8N
>

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[Richard Ferch]

It's nice to see some recognition that the issue is not the same for
people using two receivers as for people using a single receiver, but I
am not sure how well the proposed solution will actually work in the
two-receiver "sub-RX implied split" (or "reverse split") situation.

When I am using "sub-RX implied split", the K3's SPLIT indicator is off,
because I am transmitting on VFO A. The proposed solution would show
"NON.SPLT" on the VFO B display, which is not correct in this situation
(I am actually operating split, listening on VFO B and transmitting on
VFO A). If I manage somehow to leave my K3 in SPLIT mode with the DX in
the subRX, I will be transmitting on the DX frequency but the VFO A
display will show "SPLIT" even though in this case I am erroneously
operating non-split.

I also operate SO2V in many contests, meaning that I have two logging
windows open in my contest software, one for each VFO. If I choose to
work someone non-split from the VFO B logging window, the software
automatically puts the K3 into SPLIT mode in order to transmit on VFO B.
The VFO A display would show "SPLIT" while I am transmitting, but
actually I am not operating split.

The real problem is that the rig cannot read my mind. It has no way of
knowing whether I am listening to the other station on the main RX or
the subRX, hence whether I am actually operating split or non-split. My
solution to this is to ignore the K3's display and never use the SPLIT
button on the radio, i.e. to do all split- or VFO B-related operations
from software. The software knows my intention because it gives me a way
to tell it what I want to do, whereas until someone comes up with a
mind-reading module, the radio cannot know my real intention.

73,
Rich VE3KI


Wayne Burdick wrote:

> This method also works whether you're doing "real" split (RX on VFO A, TX on VFO B) \
> or "sub-RX implied split" (TX on VFO A, RX with sub on VFO B).

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[wayne burdick]

Useful analysis, Rich. I agree this might cause some confusion.

Here's a simpler variation. Suppose we give operators the option of briefly flashing the entire transmit VFO frequency off/on once each time you start keying? This would duplicate the intent of the "TX" arrow, which points to either "A" or "B" but is small enough to get lost unless you're looking right at it. No new semantics -- just a more visible TX VFO indication.

This wouldn't tell you whether you're in split mode. But flashing the A vs. B displays would look quite different to the eye, so you'd quickly get used to looking for the right one as confirmation of your intent.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:14 PM, Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It's nice to see some recognition that the issue is not the same for people using two receivers as for people using a single receiver, but I am not sure how well the proposed solution will actually work in the two-receiver "sub-RX implied split" (or "reverse split") situation.
>
> When I am using "sub-RX implied split", the K3's SPLIT indicator is off, because I am transmitting on VFO A. The proposed solution would show "NON.SPLT" on the VFO B display, which is not correct in this situation (I am actually operating split, listening on VFO B and transmitting on VFO A). If I manage somehow to leave my K3 in SPLIT mode with the DX in the subRX, I will be transmitting on the DX frequency but the VFO A display will show "SPLIT" even though in this case I am erroneously operating non-split.
>
> I also operate SO2V in many contests, meaning that I have two logging windows open in my contest software, one for each VFO. If I choose to work someone non-split from the VFO B logging window, the software automatically puts the K3 into SPLIT mode in order to transmit on VFO B. The VFO A display would show "SPLIT" while I am transmitting, but actually I am not operating split.
>
> The real problem is that the rig cannot read my mind. It has no way of knowing whether I am listening to the other station on the main RX or the subRX, hence whether I am actually operating split or non-split. My solution to this is to ignore the K3's display and never use the SPLIT button on the radio, i.e. to do all split- or VFO B-related operations from software. The software knows my intention because it gives me a way to tell it what I want to do, whereas until someone comes up with a mind-reading module, the radio cannot know my real intention.
>
> 73,
> Rich VE3KI

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[Vic Rosenthal]

I like this. Also changing the color on the P3 cursor when going into transmit, not just when selecting or deselecting SPLIT.

Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO

> On Feb 19, 2015, at 9:33 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Useful analysis, Rich. I agree this might cause some confusion.
>
> Here's a simpler variation. Suppose we give operators the option of briefly flashing the entire transmit VFO frequency off/on once each time you start keying? This would duplicate the intent of the "TX" arrow, which points to either "A" or "B" but is small enough to get lost unless you're looking right at it. No new semantics -- just a more visible TX VFO indication.
>
> This wouldn't tell you whether you're in split mode. But flashing the A vs. B displays would look quite different to the eye, so you'd quickly get used to looking for the right one as confirmation of your intent.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>> On Feb 18, 2015, at 12:14 PM, Richard Ferch <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> It's nice to see some recognition that the issue is not the same for people using two receivers as for people using a single receiver, but I am not sure how well the proposed solution will actually work in the two-receiver "sub-RX implied split" (or "reverse split") situation.
>>
>> When I am using "sub-RX implied split", the K3's SPLIT indicator is off, because I am transmitting on VFO A. The proposed solution would show "NON.SPLT" on the VFO B display, which is not correct in this situation (I am actually operating split, listening on VFO B and transmitting on VFO A). If I manage somehow to leave my K3 in SPLIT mode with the DX in the subRX, I will be transmitting on the DX frequency but the VFO A display will show "SPLIT" even though in this case I am erroneously operating non-split.
>>
>> I also operate SO2V in many contests, meaning that I have two logging windows open in my contest software, one for each VFO. If I choose to work someone non-split from the VFO B logging window, the software automatically puts the K3 into SPLIT mode in order to transmit on VFO B. The VFO A display would show "SPLIT" while I am transmitting, but actually I am not operating split.
>>
>> The real problem is that the rig cannot read my mind. It has no way of knowing whether I am listening to the other station on the main RX or the subRX, hence whether I am actually operating split or non-split. My solution to this is to ignore the K3's display and never use the SPLIT button on the radio, i.e. to do all split- or VFO B-related operations from software. The software knows my intention because it gives me a way to tell it what I want to do, whereas until someone comes up with a mind-reading module, the radio cannot know my real intention.
>>
>> 73,
>> Rich VE3KI

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[John K3TN]

I may have missed the beginning of this thread, but agree with VE3KI that there is no "mind reading" solution. The current approach could be improved to reduce some errors but there is a lot of skimmer spotting that does NOT indicate "UP" or "QSK ..." and lots of people click and xmit. But reducing the number of times I (all of us)  mistakenly xmit on the DX station's TX frequency would be a good thing.

I'm a big fan of the "traditional" method where the larger/main VFO display always shows the TX frequency. In split operation, when not transmitting there is some visual indication your are in split mode (the K3 already does that in 2 ways) and when you transmit, the larger/main VFO display switches to show your xmit frequency and the smaller/secondary display shows the RX freq.

The benefit of this tried and true approach is that you can be in split but have both VFOs on the same freq. If you xmit and the main VFO doesn't change, good indication that you may be in split mode but not really actually, truly SPLIT!

That VFO swapping SPLIT display is one of only two things I find I like better when using my old TS-850 as I am now since my K3 is out at a remote site. But, boy do I miss that sub-RX!

73 John K3TN

[Don Wilhelm-4]

Wayne,

I think that would be unnecessarily irritating for normal use with the
frequency display blinking.

I actually like what happens on the K2 (which displays only one VFO).
In SPLIT or XIT, the display changes to the transmit VFO frequency - and
the resultant 'blinking' is quite obvious.
What would be wrong with displaying the transmit VFO in the larger upper
frequency display area (even if it is also displayed in the smaller
frequency display area).  The result is a blinking display when SPLIT or
XIT is engaged.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/19/2015 2:33 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Useful analysis, Rich. I agree this might cause some confusion.
>
> Here's a simpler variation. Suppose we give operators the option of briefly flashing the entire transmit VFO frequency off/on once each time you start keying? This would duplicate the intent of the "TX" arrow, which points to either "A" or "B" but is small enough to get lost unless you're looking right at it. No new semantics -- just a more visible TX VFO indication.
>
> This wouldn't tell you whether you're in split mode. But flashing the A vs. B displays would look quite different to the eye, so you'd quickly get used to looking for the right one as confirmation of your intent.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>

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[Barry]

How about when NOT in split, the display flashes UPLID, alternating with the frequency?  :-)
Barry W2UP

[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 2015-02-19 6:44 AM, John K3TN via Elecraft wrote:
> That VFO swapping SPLIT display is one of only two things I find I
> like better when using my old TS-850 as I am now since my K3 is out
> at a remote site. But, boy do I miss that sub-RX!

VFO Swapping displays are a feature of *single receiver* transceivers.
I do not believe *any* dual receiver transceiver ever swapped the VFO
displays (Icom's "dual watch" functions is not a dual receiver).

VFO Swapping displays are confusing when done with a dual receiver
function.  If you want a more "in your face" indication, flash the
transmit VFO when transmitting but *please* make it an option.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 2015-02-19 8:14 AM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
> What would be wrong with displaying the transmit VFO in the larger
> upper frequency display area (even if it is also displayed in the
> smaller frequency display area). The result is a blinking display
> when SPLIT or XIT is engaged.

The upper display as labeled VFO A [A].  Displaying VFO B in that space
is incorrect and also means that the operator can not see where VFO A
is set.

The K2 is a single receiver transceiver and the display shows the
operating frequency (currently selected frequency).  The K3 is a dual
receiver transceiver and shows the frequencies of each receiver [VFO].
That is consistent with the differences between single and dual RX
transceivers across the board.

BTW, the K3 *already* changes the VFO A display when switching between
RX and TX when RIT or XIT is in use.  In other words, the VFO A display
correctly shows the current frequency of VFO A.

Wayne, for those who need an "in your face" display, I *like* flashing
the VFO being used for transmit.  I think it could even blink slowly
in receive - so there would be *no doubt* where the K3 will transmit.

73,

    ... Joe, W4TV


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[Cady, Fred]

This is looking like a promising change to me.  I guess "start keying" would have to have a delay so it didn't flash at QSK rates.
Please consider adding a transmit color to the P3 too because when chasing the split dx I'm not looking at the K3 display at all.  
Thanks and cheers,
Fred KE7X


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne Burdick
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2015 12:33 AM
To: Richard Ferch
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Useful analysis, Rich. I agree this might cause some confusion.

Here's a simpler variation. Suppose we give operators the option of briefly flashing the entire transmit VFO frequency off/on once each time you start keying? This would duplicate the intent of the "TX" arrow, which points to either "A" or "B" but is small enough to get lost unless you're looking right at it. No new semantics -- just a more visible TX VFO indication.

This wouldn't tell you whether you're in split mode. But flashing the A vs. B displays would look quite different to the eye, so you'd quickly get used to looking for the right one as confirmation of your intent.

Wayne
N6KR


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[Don Wilhelm-4]

I also believe the real problem is the "click and transmit" action of
the operator.
We seem to have lost the "listen before transmitting" polite operating
considerations.

Listening before transmitting requires the operator an opportunity to
think about where he is going to transmit, and that should provide a
time to check whether the K3 is in SPLIT or not.  There is not much the
K3 can do to enforce good operating practices.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 2/19/2015 6:44 AM, John K3TN via Elecraft wrote:
> I may have missed the beginning of this thread, but agree with VE3KI that
> there is no "mind reading" solution. The current approach could be improved
> to reduce some errors but there is a lot of skimmer spotting that does NOT
> indicate "UP" or "QSK ..." and lots of people click and xmit. But reducing
> the number of times I (all of us)  mistakenly xmit on the DX station's TX
> frequency would be a good thing.
>
>

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-4]

On 2015-02-19 9:37 AM, Cady, Fred wrote:
 > Please consider adding a transmit color to the P3 too because when
 > chasing the split dx I'm not looking at the K3 display at all.

When XIT/RIT or split is activated a *third* transmit cursor already
appears in red.  Since the P3 display is frozen in transmit there is
no other opportunity to change cursor for transmit although perhaps
it would be possible to superimpose a big block *SPLIT* in the center
of the display <G>.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV


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