Elecraft

A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

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wayne burdick

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Administrator

"Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

It is partly a matter of training, and you're right, we can't solve that part of the problem.

But we *can* improve the visibility of split/non-split state information, and there's a lot of evidence that even well-trained operators could benefit from that. No one remembers to be in or out of split as required 100% of the time.

If we can solve part of the problem in firmware (by improving visibility), why not? At least this thread might then only come up semiannually.

Meanwhile, the experts on split, including you, could help correct the other part of the problem by writing educational articles about split operation for ham magazines and web forums.

Wayne
N6KR

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Gary Smith-2

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

It is the operator of the radio who must be in control of his
transmitter. When I go to a split operation I always set the K3 to do
that and I'm good to go.

However what happens is I rarely make the Q right away and I I'll
click on another spot I need to see how that is coming in and with my
software, if there is a split frequency entered, the K3 will be put
in split as well (All is good). But, when going back to the first
frequency, unless I manually work the band switch to QSY to where I
first set up the split, clicking on a spot in the spot log will get
me there but if SPLIT wasn't in that info, I'll be back but not in
SPLIT. When I transmit I'll be dead on the DX.

If I had clicked on a spot on the same band, I may or may not have
had a SPLIT entered based on the info the spotter had left. So if
there was no SPLIT, then QSYing back to the first frequency, I'd
again have no SPLIT.

The problem being that I had set up a split the first time but later
left the frequency and going back to it, I have to check to see if
I'm still in split. Yes, the responsibility is mine to do so but it's
easy to be curious about other possible Qs and then having your
original settings be undone without you thinking about it.

I suspect some version of that scenario happens to most people. For
me, seeing the words in color on the P3 would be an in your face
reminder you are in split or not. I'd love to be able to select that
option, others may not want to but it would save my can, you betcha.

73,

Gary KA1J

>
> > Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
> > indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
> > indicate is not the case.
>
> Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
> or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
> accident. That's not possible - there are those who can break an
> anvil.
>
> The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
> Any *one* of those should be sufficient. *NONE* of the proposals do
> anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
> operator that he *should be in split*.
>
> The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*. The
> correct approach would be: every time the operator activates transmit,
> the rig display should show a message that says "you are in transceive
> (simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split? Press XMIT to
> begin transmitting"
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:
> > Dave (AB9CA),
> >
> > Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
> > lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
> > just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.
> >
> > Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
> > indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
> > indicate is not the case.
> >
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Dave-7

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Joe Subich, W4TV-4

> The only real solution is signal decoding
> that listens for "UP" and automatically engages split.

Even this won't work for those ops who rarely send UP. I listened to
one DX last evening, TI9/xxxxxx, who went 20 min without ID'ing and
*never* sent UP.

And . . . if you were to put decoding of UP in there . . . all the net
ops, who send guys UP to pass traffic, will commence their complaining.

No matter how many dancing bears may be on the various displays, if
the guy is not paying attention, he will see none of them. Simple truth.

The K3 already has 3 annunciators for SPLIT, plus the P3 has two more.
I doubt that adding one or two more will make any difference. The
problem is that the op is not watching what he already has.

And since non-split is the usual mode, no annunciator is needed for that.

Good UI's can aid an attentive user, but they cannot overcome the lack
of the user paying attention to the UI, which is the issue here.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4

On 2/18/15 10:24 AM, Joe Subich, W4TV wrote:

>
> > Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
> > in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
> > errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
> > having this conversation.
>
> The problem is that you're still trying to reinforce a negative. The
> normal operation is simplex - none of the additional indicators will
> do anything to reinforce to an operator set for simplex that he
> *should be* split.
>
> These indicators only work if the operator *knows he should be split*
> and if he knows that the current indicators - three on the K3, two in
> the P3 - are enough to let him know that split is engaged.
>
> Even experienced operators can get distracted. It is not the lack
> of sufficient indicators that is the distraction - it is not thinking
> before pressing the PTT switch and even the best can forget to look
> before transmitting.
>
>> And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van
>> de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have to work within
>> the limits of the existing hardware.
>
> Unfortunately those are all static indications *when split is engaged*
> - they still do not (and can not) tell the operator that split *should*
> *be* engaged when it is not. The only real solution is signal decoding
> that listens for "UP" and automatically engages split.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-02-18 11:00 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> User interface design is often called upon to make up for human
>> failings. We get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad
>> habits, we easily acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much
>> training we have. The designer tries to take such issues into account
>> up front, but sometimes we find out later and make adjustments.
>>
>> My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on
>> embedding knowledge "in the world." Signs and indicators need to be
>> as unambiguous as possible to help those of us who can't or won't pay
>> attention. Ideally the indications are intuitive, so users adapt to
>> them easily and don't feel oppressed by them. That distinction is in
>> play here. And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon
>> horn, and a Van de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have
>> to work within the limits of the existing hardware.
>>
>> Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is
>> in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real
>> errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're
>> having this conversation.
>>
>> Wayne N6KR
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Mike Harris-9

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Will that include the telepathy module so that the K3 knows when it
should be in split? Unless I've missed something it still needs the
operator to know when split is desired and initiate it.

It's all getting out of perspective. The only programming needed is
that of the operator, aka learning how to use the K3, not a big deal
surely, were are big brained animals.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

On 18/02/2015 12:30, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be enabled using a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.
>
> 73,
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:22 AM, Carey Magee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi All:
>>
>> Would this be able to be set as an option in the Menu/Config Menu? I currently am fine with split indication. If I include my logging program I currently have 4 indicators to remind me.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> 73,
>> Carey Magee, K2RNY
>> Rochester New York
>> Grid: FN13ef
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:02 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this behavior:
>>
>> - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows "NON.SPLT" on VFO B. (A is TX in this case.)
>>
>> - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows "SPLIT" on VFO A. (B is TX in this case.)
>>
>> So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.
>>
>> The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the "NON.SPLT" or "SPLIT" would come on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like, just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.
>>
>> It's not a "flashing" message, per se, but if you were calling a DX station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to get your attention.
>>
>> It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A knob, where the action is.
>>
>> Wayne
>> N6KR

N2TK

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I can't tell you why, but I do know that I have had an issue with SPLIT more
so with the K3 then my former rigs. Deservedly so I have had the frequency
police alert me when I forgot to go split when I thought I was SPLIT. For
some reason I don't equate the yellow LED on the left side of the panel with
SPLIT. Maybe it is a mindset or an ergonomic thing?

I realize we only have one choice of color with the display, which
eliminates any possibility of using color to alert us there.
I like some of the ideas such as large visual indicators "SPLIT" where the
RCVR B frequency is displayed. Maybe that is worth a try with a beta version
to see if it helps the issue?

Maybe some kind of LED indicator by the SPLIT button? Wasn't there some
homebrew mods like this on the K2 years ago for other functions?
Maybe yellow is the wrong color where SPLIT presently is indicated? Too
close in color to the display screen? Make it green?
Maybe the symbol "delta f" next the yellow LED should really say SPLIT?

Some rigs do not display the VFO B frequency when not in SPLIT.
Some show VFO B frequency subdued when not in SPLIT.
I like to know where the second receiver is tuned to even if not in SPLIT.

Just some thoughts.
N2TK, Tony

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 11:04 AM
To: Joe Subich, W4TV
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Joe,

Just because there are three indicators for SPLIT already doesn't mean that
the problem has been solved. Even crack operators have admitted during the
past few days that they occasionally forget their split state, with
embarrassing consequences. This is proof that the indications can and should
be improved, if possible. See my previous posting.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 7:58 AM, "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>> please consider the addition of something on the P3 to indicate
>> split.
>
> It's *ALREADY THERE* - the Transmit (VFO B) cursor is *RED* when
> split. In addition, there is a separate (*THIRD*) red cursor showing
> the transmit frequency when XIT is engaged.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
>
> On 2015-02-18 10:31 AM, David Cole wrote:
>> Wayne,
>> If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
>> something on the P3 to indicate split. Most of my eye action is on
>> the
>> P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.
>>
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Gary Smith-2

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Mike Harris-9

> Will that include the telepathy module so that the K3 knows when it
> should be in split? Unless I've missed something it still needs the
> operator to know when split is desired and initiate it.

My YL expects me to have the telepathy module running 24/7...

Gary KA1J

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Anthony ~ W8AF

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Now, how can we help the guy that is in split but on the wrong VFO?

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 11:58 AM, Gary Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Will that include the telepathy module so that the K3 knows when it
> > should be in split? Unless I've missed something it still needs the
> > operator to know when split is desired and initiate it.
>
>
> My YL expects me to have the telepathy module running 24/7...
>
> Gary KA1J
>
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Edward R Cole

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Thank you!

I need to be able to know both frequencies at a glance and not have
to wait a minute for the transmit cycle to end in JT65. Keeping the
present display as default works for me (and hopefully whatever
option you provide in the menu makes others happy).

73, Ed - KL7UW

From: Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]>
To: Carey Magee <[hidden email]>
Cc: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT"
warnings
Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1

Any change we make in the way split is indicated would have to be
enabled using a menu entry. The present behavior will remain the default.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

73, Ed - KL7UW
http://www.kl7uw.com
"Kits made by KL7UW"
Dubus Mag business:
[hidden email]

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Dwayne Rohmer

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin NF4L

Situation awareness is the perception of environmental elements with
respect to time or space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the
projection of their status after some variable has changed, such as
time, or some other variable, such as a predetermined event. I guess we
need more situational awareness. How we get there is up for debate. And
we digress.

When in SPLIT, the K3 already displays the Delta f LED, The SPLIT icon,
and the TX arrow points to the B VFO. Configuring the DELTA-F LED to
"FLASH" may, or may not, create more awareness, it just depends on the
operator.

I suggested CONFIG: DELTA-F LED (nor or FLASH) as a solution to those
that need another "flag" to indicate SPLIT. If you don't want it, you
wouldn't have to configure it.

It should not be necessary to display a message that constitutes a
warning in a normal operating mode. Having three indicators when split
should be enough, but we know that the size of the K3 also dictates a
small display. That display has a lot of information on it, sometimes
you have to look closely to see what is really going on. Maybe the P3 or
a computer screen has become a more popular thing to look at, especially
with DX and contesting.

Since the objective is to easily determine or verify the transmit
frequency with SPLIT, RIT, and XIT ops, maybe a CONFIG option could
enable the Transmit frequency (in this case, VFO B) to flash three times
on key down, but only when operating SPLIT, RIT, and XIT.

I propose CONFIG: Tx FREQ (nor or FLASH).

The K3 will never fix an operator that doesn't know what split is, or
when to use it. We also can't fix an operator that doesn't know how to
use his radio. It may be helpful to have a larger indicator to help an
experienced operator that is familiar with his radio to easily determine
the frequency of the transmitter, and also to quickly recover from an
unintended push of a button or other mistake.

73,

Dwayne WV5I

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wayne burdick

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Administrator

In reply to this post by Gary Smith-2

Well stated, Gary. But those who don't have a P3 could still benefit from a more overt split/non-split indication on the K3 itself. I'm going to try the method I proposed.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:39 AM, Gary Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is the operator of the radio who must be in control of his
> transmitter. When I go to a split operation I always set the K3 to do
> that and I'm good to go.
>
> However what happens is I rarely make the Q right away and I I'll
> click on another spot I need to see how that is coming in and with my
> software, if there is a split frequency entered, the K3 will be put
> in split as well (All is good). But, when going back to the first
> frequency, unless I manually work the band switch to QSY to where I
> first set up the split, clicking on a spot in the spot log will get
> me there but if SPLIT wasn't in that info, I'll be back but not in
> SPLIT. When I transmit I'll be dead on the DX.
>
> If I had clicked on a spot on the same band, I may or may not have
> had a SPLIT entered based on the info the spotter had left. So if
> there was no SPLIT, then QSYing back to the first frequency, I'd
> again have no SPLIT.
>
> The problem being that I had set up a split the first time but later
> left the frequency and going back to it, I have to check to see if
> I'm still in split. Yes, the responsibility is mine to do so but it's
> easy to be curious about other possible Qs and then having your
> original settings be undone without you thinking about it.
>
> I suspect some version of that scenario happens to most people. For
> me, seeing the words in color on the P3 would be an in your face
> reminder you are in split or not. I'd love to be able to select that
> option, others may not want to but it would save my can, you betcha.
>
> 73,
>
> Gary KA1J
>>
>>> Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
>>> indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
>>> indicate is not the case.
>>
>> Implicit in your statement is that the transceiver, automobile, roadway
>> or whatever should make it impossible for the operator to have an
>> accident. That's not possible - there are those who can break an
>> anvil.
>>
>> The current design that *THREE* separate indications of split operation.
>> Any *one* of those should be sufficient. *NONE* of the proposals do
>> anything to address the real question which should be how to notify the
>> operator that he *should be in split*.
>>
>> The problem is that the operator *is not paying attention*. The
>> correct approach would be: every time the operator activates transmit,
>> the rig display should show a message that says "you are in transceive
>> (simplex) - are you sure you should not engage split? Press XMIT to
>> begin transmitting"
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>>
>> On 2015-02-18 10:40 AM, David Cole wrote:
>>> Dave (AB9CA),
>>>
>>> Given your logic, we should get rid of all street signs, and stop
>>> lights, and guard rails on bridges, and roads, because the drivers are
>>> just initiative, and the crutch o guard rails is not needed for them.
>>>
>>> Implicit in your statement, is the assumption that the provided
>>> indicators are sufficient, which all of this traffic would seem to
>>> indicate is not the case.
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>>
>
>
>
>
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Mike Reublin NF4L

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at the door that would staple my pants to my waist. I'm just not a fan of trying to make up for someones lack of attention to the job at hand. A car ad I saw on TV recently concluded with the statement that by virtue of all the safety devices on board, it wasn't necessary to devote as much attention to driving. I find that kind of thinking truly frightening.

Have I transmitted on the wrong VFO? Of course, and I take full blame for that. It's not the radio's fault.

It is of course your company, and your decision. I'm not going to stop vigorously supporting Elecraft.

> On Feb 18, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 18, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Mike Reublin NF4L <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> If it's an option, OK, but I am convinced that if an op misses the existing two indicators on the LCD display, and the Δf yellow LED, then more indicators aren't gonna help. And I am unanimous in my opinion.
>
> :)
>
> Well, I'm not sure I agree. Yes, there are three indicators, but they're all quite small, and the delta-F LED is off to the side. These methods of indicating split all seemed like a great idea at the time, but even I miss them sometimes, so I'm interested in trying something else.
>
> My proposed "split" and "non-split" text indications might solve the "didn't see the indicators" problem, because they occupy so much more area of the front panel (about 20 times more). That seems to be the crux of the issue: a lot of operators want something *BIG* to change stage when they transmit, and that something has to indicate whether they're in split or not.
>
> This method also works whether you're doing "real" split (RX on VFO A, TX on VFO B) or "sub-RX implied split" (TX on VFO A, RX with sub on VFO B).
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>

Stephen Selberg

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Dwayne Rohmer

My .02
I think it's a good idea if Elecraft is willing to invest the time. I know
plenty of good operators who take the time to set split only to
accidentally bump a button that throws everything out of wack during the
rush of "a new one". Then they continue to call thinking they're in split
because they took the time to set it and ignore all the ..- .--. 'S because
in their mind, they are in split. I think having it displayed on the P3 is
an excellent idea because that is were the attention is for a lot of folks.

Also there are hams with young children who like to run into the shack and
press buttons without the operators knowledge during a bathroom break etc.
this has never happened to me Hihi.

Ultimately, yes ppl should pay attention, but if the ability is there to
help them, why not have it.

Wayne, if you build it, they will come.

73,

Steve KS6PD

On Wednesday, February 18, 2015, Dwayne Rohmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Situation awareness is the perception of environmental elements with
> respect to time or space, the comprehension of their meaning, and the
> projection of their status after some variable has changed, such as time,
> or some other variable, such as a predetermined event. I guess we need more
> situational awareness. How we get there is up for debate. And we digress.
>
> When in SPLIT, the K3 already displays the Delta f LED, The SPLIT icon,
> and the TX arrow points to the B VFO. Configuring the DELTA-F LED to
> "FLASH" may, or may not, create more awareness, it just depends on the
> operator.
>
> I suggested CONFIG: DELTA-F LED (nor or FLASH) as a solution to those that
> need another "flag" to indicate SPLIT. If you don't want it, you wouldn't
> have to configure it.
>
> It should not be necessary to display a message that constitutes a warning
> in a normal operating mode. Having three indicators when split should be
> enough, but we know that the size of the K3 also dictates a small display.
> That display has a lot of information on it, sometimes you have to look
> closely to see what is really going on. Maybe the P3 or a computer screen
> has become a more popular thing to look at, especially with DX and
> contesting.
>
> Since the objective is to easily determine or verify the transmit
> frequency with SPLIT, RIT, and XIT ops, maybe a CONFIG option could enable
> the Transmit frequency (in this case, VFO B) to flash three times on key
> down, but only when operating SPLIT, RIT, and XIT.
>
> I propose CONFIG: Tx FREQ (nor or FLASH).
>
> The K3 will never fix an operator that doesn't know what split is, or when
> to use it. We also can't fix an operator that doesn't know how to use his
> radio. It may be helpful to have a larger indicator to help an experienced
> operator that is familiar with his radio to easily determine the frequency
> of the transmitter, and also to quickly recover from an unintended push of
> a button or other mistake.
>
> 73,
>
> Dwayne WV5I
>
>
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I make it easy. I use two radios.
George, W6GF

On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 8:55 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

User interface design is often called upon to make up for human failings. We get distracted, we forget, we have trouble breaking bad habits, we easily acquire new ones. This is true no matter how much training we have. The designer tries to take such issues into account up front, but sometimes we find out later and make adjustments.

My cognitive science professor, Don Norman, put a heavy emphasis on embedding knowledge "in the world." Signs and indicators need to be as unambiguous as possible to help those of us who can't or won't pay attention. Ideally the indications are intuitive, so users adapt to them easily and don't feel oppressed by them. That distinction is in play here. And while I'd love to add a dozen more LEDs, a klaxon horn, and a Van de Graf generator to the K3's user interface, we have to work within the limits of the existing hardware.

Providing an optional means of reinforcing split/non-split state is in the tradition of design iteration -- using feedback about real errors that people make, then minimizing them. That's why we're having this conversation.

Wayne
N6KR

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Jim Bolit

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Dave-7

I find myself in far more car accidents when driving and I take my hands off
the steering wheel to start doing Excel spreadsheets.

One needs to be "situationally aware".

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of dave
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 7:17 AM
To: Wayne Burdick; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

I dunno . . .

What we are doing is attempting to address an op who is not paying
attention. But, if the op is not paying attention, how is any of this going
to have any effect? I think it is all a waste of time and effort.

If someone is not paying attention, they are not paying attention, and the
*only* cure is for them to being paying attention to what they are doing.

I don't think the various band aids being discussed will help. The guy is
still not going to be paying attention. He is distracted by something else.

I would suggest that the time spent, which might well be wasted on this
project, be used for something more productive. The K3 is fine as it is. It
is the op that is the problem, not the K3.

73 de dave
ab9ca/4

On 2/18/15 9:02 AM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
> Suppose we provide a menu option that, when engaged, results in this
behavior:
>
> - If you're NOT in SPLIT: keying the rig shows "NON.SPLT" on VFO B. (A
> is TX in this case.)
>
> - If you ARE in SPLIT: keying the rig shows "SPLIT" on VFO A. (B is TX
> in this case.)
>
> So, during keying in either case, the TX frequency is still displayed (you
need to know that), but the RX display is used to provide a warning.
>
> The time constant for these displayed messages would coincide with the
change in metering from RX to TX. Thus the "NON.SPLT" or "SPLIT" would come
on when you key, and stay on for at least 300 ms, the timer being
retriggered each time you key. To get an idea of what that would look like,
just watch the RX and TX metering scales as you key the radio.
>
> It's not a "flashing" message, per se, but if you were calling a DX
station on the order of every few seconds, the message would come and go to
get your attention.
>
> It has the advantage of being quite obvious since it changes the entire
contents of one of the VFO displays, and both are very close to the VFO A
knob, where the action is.

>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
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wayne burdick

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Administrator

In reply to this post by Mike Reublin NF4L

Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:

> If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at the door that would staple my pants to my waist.

Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's pants emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if you've forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants do not have this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting "UP! UP!"

Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would you buy?

Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect the presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a real product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger. Which would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too? The saw with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But OTOH, until this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as their immediate family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.

My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a simple change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth the trouble.

I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And at no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this feature--because they are well above average in awareness of state--can choose not to turn it on.

(Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)

Wayne
N6KR

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Jim Bolit

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Wayne,

You are boiling the ocean for a small issue.

I think a better CW decoder would help on CW, some op's can't copy up or Eu,
or JA, or................

Jim
W6AIM

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Wayne
Burdick
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2015 9:36 AM
To: Elecraft List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:

> If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor
at the door that would staple my pants to my waist.

Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's
pants emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if
you've forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants
do not have this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants
slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van
filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting "UP! UP!"

Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would
you buy?

Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect
the presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a
real product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger.
Which would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too?
The saw with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But
OTOH, until this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as
their immediate family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.

My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a
simple change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth
the trouble.

I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And
at no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text
display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this
feature--because they are well above average in awareness of state--can
choose not to turn it on.

(Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)

Wayne
N6KR

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Guy Olinger K2AV

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by Ted Roycraft-2

With all due respect, however......

There are two times during a contest when I can get tripped up with
SPLT or LINK or anything else that is not a firm habit or totally
rote:

STUPID -- my usual state after 24 hours with only scattered sleep,
worsened by pileups not there to keep me energized and rates gone down
and having to slog it out. Nothing fixes STUPID except 8 uninterrupted
hours of sleep and cranial transplants. No flashy, whizzy change on
the panel display will fix STUPID.

LAZY -- That's when I get on because there's nothing else to do, I'm
sleepy but can't go to sleep. More to the point, my basic attitude is
irritated, irritated at whatever. Anything that bothers me is someone
else's fault. My wife leaves me alone when I'm like that. I try not to
write emails when I'm like that. I screw up SPLT because I'm not
paying attention, because I don't want to pay attention. No flashy,
whizzy change on the panel display will fix LAZY.

DISTRACTED -- That's when there's more than one thing going on. That
would be radio plus whatever. The whatever's are around all the time,
need to scratch my b*tt, a bird flies past the window, a dog barks,
multi/multi contest and the rates are down and the other ops are
sending limericks around on the MM network. DISTRACTED is something we
all need to manage, and don't want to, see LAZY. No flashy, whizzy
change on the panel display will fix DISTRACTED.

PAYING ATTENTION is the owner's responsibility. No one else's.

SOME things would fix what seem, by the greater experience in Elecraft
owner land, to be natural born trip hazards. Like guard rails to
minimize the damage when a driver runs off the road, but the driver is
still responsible.

Could be an option to flash the delta f LED, but that is as far as I'd
go. But even then after a time people will even tune out the flashing
delta f LED. I normally do NOT perceive the flashing TX LED while I'm
operating. Flashing TX LED is normal, and my mind has tuned out
normal, looking listening for what's different, like the sound and
smell of the Sabre-Tooth Tiger, back in my cave man days.

The effect of flashy, whizzy change on the panel display will last
until the subconscious human brain figures out that flashy, whizzy
change on the panel display is NORMAL, and then the subconscious will
tune it out, so it can listen for the Sabre-Tooth Tiger.

73, Guy

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ted Roycraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Bingo! No amount of flashing on the K3 screen is going to correct poor
> operating habits. Nothing can substitute for good operating practices which
> become habits. It takes 2 seconds to check the K3 status before sending.
> Make a habit. If you don't do that, you won't see anything flashing on the
> screen either.
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by NK7Z

I like this idea, at least for those with a P3. It is usually where my
eyes are. If the P3 (and of course SVGA display) were to make the
transmitting cursor background yellow when the K3 is in TX mode, that
would immediately get my attention. Nothing could be clearer when
looking at a pileup.

I am not so positive about SPLIT/NON.SPLT in the VFO displays.

On 18 Feb 2015 17:31, David Cole wrote:
> Wayne,
> If the user has a P3 connected, please consider the addition of
> something on the P3 to indicate split. Most of my eye action is on the
> P3 in a pileup, not on the frequency.
>

--
73,
Vic, 4X6GP/K2VCO
Rehovot, Israel
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco/
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Ted Roycraft-2

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

This sounds like a harmless change and might even do some good. I wish
there were a good way to measure its effect, however, because I'm
betting it won't make a bit of difference in errors in using split. You
have to look at the K3 display for it to be effective and I believe that
is the root cause of the problem. People don't pay attention. At least
with this change, Elecraft will have done just about all it can
reasonably do and we'll see if we ever have this discussion again in the
future.

73, Ted, W2ZK

On 2/18/2015 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:
>
>> If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at the door that would staple my pants to my waist.
> Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's pants emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if you've forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants do not have this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting "UP! UP!"
>
> Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would you buy?
>
> Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect the presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a real product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger. Which would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too? The saw with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But OTOH, until this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as their immediate family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.
>
> My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a simple change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth the trouble.
>
> I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And at no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this feature--because they are well above average in awareness of state--can choose not to turn it on.
>
> (Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>
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wayne burdick

Re: A way to show both "SPLIT" and "NON-SPLIT" warnings

Administrator

Ted,

I think the chance of success with this change is pretty high, precisely because you *won't* have to be looking at the radio. A complete rewrite of the VFO A or B display on key-down is going to be very noticeable even with peripheral vision.

Wayne
N6KR

On Feb 18, 2015, at 9:54 AM, Ted Roycraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> This sounds like a harmless change and might even do some good. I wish there were a good way to measure its effect, however, because I'm betting it won't make a bit of difference in errors in using split. You have to look at the K3 display for it to be effective and I believe that is the root cause of the problem. People don't pay attention. At least with this change, Elecraft will have done just about all it can reasonably do and we'll see if we ever have this discussion again in the future.
>
> 73, Ted, W2ZK
>
> On 2/18/2015 12:36 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:
>> Mike Reublin NF4L wrote:
>>
>>> If I forget to put on a belt or suspenders, maybe there could be a sensor at the door that would staple my pants to my waist.
>> Of course not. But consider two companies that make pants. One company's pants emit a discrete audible warning as you approach the front door if you've forgotten to put on a belt or suspenders. The other company's pants do not have this feature, resulting in giggles from passersby as your pants slip to the ground as you exit the building. Oh, and there's a TV van filming you from across the street. A crowd gathers, chanting "UP! UP!"
>>
>> Assuming the difference in cost is negligible, which company's pants would you buy?
>>
>> Another example. There's a company that makes table saws that will detect the presence of skin contacting the blade and immediately stop. (This is a real product.) Everyone else's table saw will happily amputate your finger. Which would you want? Suppose your son or daughter were using the saw, too? The saw with skin conductivity detection does cost considerably more. But OTOH, until this saw was invented, about half of all carpenters, as well as their immediate family members and pets, were missing at least one digit.
>>
>> My point is that everyone, even experts, make mistakes. In some cases a simple change can prevent most of them, most of the time. It may be worth the trouble.
>>
>> I want our radio to save our customers from embarrassment when possible. And at no additional charge. So, I'm going to implement the split/non-split text display for the next beta release. Those who don't need this feature--because they are well above average in awareness of state--can choose not to turn it on.
>>
>> (Until then, everyone, keep your pants on.)
>>
>> Wayne
>> N6KR
>>
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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123