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APF For K3

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Ken Kopp-3

Re: APF For K3

The one thing I miss is the APF in my FT-990 and FT-1000D. (:-)

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
[hidden email]

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Ken Chandler

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

This is a really good thread and I'm enjoying reading the theory!
I'm always being called off frequency during contests so SHIFT would be the obvious choice!
Being an ex FT2000 owner I used the contour settings and it was bril.

Ken..G0ORH

CW4EVER

Sent from my iPhone

On 26 Oct 2010, at 03:12, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> For the same reason that they want to use SHIFT: because sometimes
> stations call you off-frequency.
>
> Wayne
>
> On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:50 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>
>> Wayne,
>>
>> Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at
>> other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking
>> for it, but it makes zero sense to me.
>>
>> Wes
>>
>> --- On Mon, 10/25/10, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Wes,
>>>
>>> The TX and VFO frequencies won't behave any differently
>>> with APF turned on, if that's what you're asking. They'll
>>> still be corrected for your sidetone pitch, as always.
>>>
>>> APF will behave like a tunable narrow filter superimposed
>>> on the normal passband. Its initial frequency would match
>>> the sidetone pitch, but you'll be able to move it around
>>> using the shift control.
>>>
>>> We're still playing with it.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
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E72X

APF For K3 and SCAF-1 audio L.P. filter

Dear all,
I am a
long time using the SCAF-1 filter by Idiom Press with which I am very pleased and after Elecrafts
finished the job with the firmware it seems that I will sell the filter, , am I right?

regards,

E72X - Gordan

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drewko

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by P.B. Christensen

Paul,

I would be very happy to just have a "live" PITCH control, as has been
requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.

As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When
you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me
it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away
every time I moved the AF Gain control.

The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
pitch control that I really want.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:12:51 -0400, Paul, W9AC wrote:

>
>Here's an example of using APF in conjunction with RIT. I normally leave my
>CW offset at 650 Hz. Some of my CW operating is very weak signal DX on the
>low bands. When copying extremely weak DX in the midst of static crashes, I
>need to temporarily shift pitch to less than 400 Hz. Some ops, including
>W4ZV, have noted that weak CW copy can improve when low pitch is used. I
>also don't want to tamper with my normal CW offset if I don't need to.
>
>By engaging in RIT, I would like to temporally dip the incoming pitch, leave
>my CW offset alone where I want it 95% of the time, and then adjust the
>frequency of the APF to match/peak the incoming pitch selected by RIT. If I
>want to experiment with different pitch settings based on band conditions, I
>also want the ability for the APF peak to track the pitch I've selected on
>RIT. That requires a tunable APF. This is precisely what the FT-1000/D
>gave its users.
>
>Of course, the greater the departure of the RIT pitch from the offset may
>require a wider DSP filter setting and/or roofing filter. But under these
>weak band conditions, wide DSP and roofing filters are just fine when band
>activity and adjacent interference is low or moderate. When I'm working
>early morning grayline DX on 80m or 40m, I rarely encounter strong adjacent
>stations since conditions are long and stateside is not heard much of the
>time. Because of this, my overall Rx bandwidth is generally set to 2.8 kHz
>or greater. Even when weak DX is running split and listening up 2 kHz,
>there's ample separation to allow a filter settings wide enough to depart a
>few hundred Hz from the CW offset.
>
>Paul, W9AC
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: APF For K3: progress report

Drew,

?HUH?
The "pitch" function that you say you want - change the pitch of a
received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change
the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would
want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone,
not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in
fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range).

Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the
sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used
for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of
the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals
being received.

Can you be more specific about what you want.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote:

> Paul,
>
> I would be very happy to just have a "live" PITCH control, as has been
> requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
> received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
> location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
> first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
> having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.
>
> As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When
> you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me
> it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away
> every time I moved the AF Gain control.
>
> The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
> pitch control that I really want.
>

AC7AC

Re: APF For K3: progress report

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Barry

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by n7ws

Wes Stewart wrote

Wayne,

Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter peaked at other than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are asking for it, but it makes zero sense to me.

Wes

Wes,
When I used the FT1000D APF on extremely weak lowband signals, I didn't want to touch the tuning knob, for fear of losing the station. Once I heard a trace of a signal, I'd engage the APF and vary to pitch to bring the signal out of the noise as best I could.
Barry W2UP

Eugene Balinski

Re: APF For K3: progress report

I use the APF on my 1000D in the same fashion.

73
Gene K1NR
K2 6kxx

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 13:48:42 -0700 (PDT)
Barry <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Wes Stewart wrote:
> >
> > Wayne,
> >
> > Understood, but why would anyone want to have a filter
> peaked at other
> > than the nominal sidetone pitch? I realize people are
> asking for it, but
> > it makes zero sense to me.
> >
> > Wes
> Wes,
> When I used the FT1000D APF on extremely weak lowband
> signals, I didn't want
> to touch the tuning knob, for fear of losing the station.
> Once I heard a
> trace of a signal, I'd engage the APF and vary to pitch
> to bring the signal
> out of the noise as best I could.
> Barry W2UP
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>

http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/APF-For-K3-tp5671688p5676492.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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The Smiths

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that.

> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
>
> Drew,
>
> ?HUH?
> The "pitch" function that you say you want - change the pitch of a
> received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change
> the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would
> want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone,
> not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in
> fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range).
>
> Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the
> sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used
> for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of
> the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals
> being received.
>
> Can you be more specific about what you want.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > I would be very happy to just have a "live" PITCH control, as has been
> > requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
> > received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
> > location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
> > first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
> > having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.
> >
> > As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When
> > you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me
> > it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away
> > every time I moved the AF Gain control.
> >
> > The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
> > pitch control that I really want.
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: APF For K3: progress report

Sorry, but I did not "miss his point". It simply boggles my mind that
someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen
mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW
with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'.
I can understand why some might want to make a "change of pace" during a
long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal
operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected
-- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650
Hz, but yours may be different.
To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me.
If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one
set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have
chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about
changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of
signals on the band.

I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not
zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate
transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think
we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal
within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be
answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work
that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote:

> Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that.
>
>> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
>>
>> Drew,
>>
>> ?HUH?
>> The "pitch" function that you say you want - change the pitch of a
>> received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change
>> the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would
>> want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone,
>> not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in
>> fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range).
>>
>> Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the
>> sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used
>> for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of
>> the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals
>> being received.
>>
>> Can you be more specific about what you want.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote:
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> I would be very happy to just have a "live" PITCH control, as has been
>>> requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
>>> received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
>>> location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
>>> first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
>>> having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.
>>>
>>> As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When
>>> you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me
>>> it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away
>>> every time I moved the AF Gain control.
>>>
>>> The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
>>> pitch control that I really want.
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Kok Chen

Re: APF For K3: progress report

On Oct 26, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:

> It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch.

Don, the difference on "usability" could perhaps boil down to this:

In one case you are trying to peak a signal with a fixed pitched inside noise. There is only a single variable -- the pitch does not change, only the SNR changes as you twiddle a knob.

In the second case (moving the VFO knob), you are changing both the pitch and at the same time trying to optimize SNR. Your ear-brain system has to deal with two variables.

It might be easier to peak a signal using the former technique (at least I prefer it). This is true even when you are trying to peak a signal in a spectrum display (i.e., when you try to peak a signal visually instead of aurally).

With that being said... after successfully peaking the signal, a single button press to move both the tone and the filter to the preferred pitch could be be ideal for me. (My Yaesu does not allow that after peaking a signal.) Programmatically moving the result to the preferred pitch is easy to do too, since the center of the filter peak is obviously known to the software.

73
Chen, W7AY

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The Smiths

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

Exactly Don, my point exactly, You DID miss the point. You DON'T understand why someone would want to do it. That's why you can't understand why he's asking for what he's asking. We're not all built out of stone. We don't all want to listen or send our CW at the same pitch all the time. If find that in Noisy conditions I like to lower my side tone down to 380Hz, yet when I'm in a casual QSO I find that I receive better at about 450Hz. When I have 2 stations that are close to each other, and I need the notch to do something for me that it doesn't do as well when I have the pitch set to a low freq. I like to have my pitch set up around 650Hz. It just depends on the conditions, the noise level, the stations that are in the pass band, and how I use the tools that the K3 has to deal with them. IE DSP, NR, NB, RF GAIN, Notch, Soon to be APF, REV CW mode, etc..... It's more than just my "comfort zone" when it comes to the IF pass band, or centering someone in it.

We don't all use our radios the same, as I'm sure you already know. For this reason, I DO understand exactly why this person would want to be able to shift his IF WHILE in a QSO, WITHOUT having to interrupt it with the side tone pitch freq. as he's doing so. I've had this happen to me on more than one occasion.

As for the Zero Beating, oh boy are you right. People out there have no idea that their side tone has anything to do with their IF Center. They all expect that you have your filter open up to 1KHz when they answer you... I can't tell you how many times people will answer me as much as 100Hz off of my IF center. But they can't all afford a K3 I guess. The new rigs these days don't all tell you when you're in the IF center. The ones that do pretty much have a little orange light that comes on, and most of the people that use these radios don't even understand why that's there.

> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 19:07:46 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
>
> Sorry, but I did not "miss his point". It simply boggles my mind that
> someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen
> mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW
> with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'.
> I can understand why some might want to make a "change of pace" during a
> long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal
> operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected
> -- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650
> Hz, but yours may be different.
> To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me.
> If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one
> set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have
> chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about
> changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of
> signals on the band.
>
> I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not
> zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate
> transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think
> we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal
> within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be
> answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work
> that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> > Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that.
> >
> >> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> CC: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
> >>
> >> Drew,
> >>
> >> ?HUH?
> >> The "pitch" function that you say you want - change the pitch of a
> >> received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will change
> >> the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would
> >> want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone,
> >> not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in
> >> fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range).
> >>
> >> Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the
> >> sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used
> >> for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of
> >> the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals
> >> being received.
> >>
> >> Can you be more specific about what you want.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote:
> >>> Paul,
> >>>
> >>> I would be very happy to just have a "live" PITCH control, as has been
> >>> requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
> >>> received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
> >>> location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
> >>> first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
> >>> having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.
> >>>
> >>> As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When
> >>> you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me
> >>> it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away
> >>> every time I moved the AF Gain control.
> >>>
> >>> The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
> >>> pitch control that I really want.
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >

The Smiths

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by Kok Chen

I've suggested to Wayne a few times that we should have a SPOT button that works for the Receive ONLY. IE. when you have the RIT button on, and you hit SPOT it moves the Receive RIT control to center the IF pass band. Just like it does with the main VFO now. This would allow someone to SEND a CQ, have someone answer you off your IF Center, and then auto SPOT them in without having to move the RIT knob. This would allow you to keep put with your transmitter location and then QUICKLY turn that WIDTH knob down to 50 Hz KNOWING with confidence that you're not going to remove them from your receivers IF Pass band. This wouldn't change much about the K3 at all, it would only ADD to the features it has now.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to SPOT their rig after someone has answered THEIR CQ off freq. It would just cause the both of you to either loose contact (depending how far off you were) or for the two people to be chasing each other around in circles as each one keeps tuning the other. Of course, when the RIT button is NOT on, the spot would work EXACTLY as it does now. Makes perfect sense to me.
For those that wonder what happens when the XIT button is pushed, well, it just acts like it does now, the spot will move the XIT still. The ONLY change is when the RIT button alone is turned on.. then the SPOT works like an AUTO SPOTTING RIT control.. simple, yet VERY helpful for fast tuning and filtering. For those that don't like it, well I guess it can be an option you can turn on and off, just like balance contol etc.. in the Config MENU. RIT = SPOT or RIT = NOR...

Not sure why it never made it into the list of things to be added to the rig. Seems like a pretty simple one.... Or did it? Wayne...

> From: [hidden email]
> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 16:33:41 -0700
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2010, at 4:07 PM, Don Wilhelm wrote:
>
> > It simply boggles my mind that someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch.
>
> Don, the difference on "usability" could perhaps boil down to this:
>
> In one case you are trying to peak a signal with a fixed pitched inside noise. There is only a single variable -- the pitch does not change, only the SNR changes as you twiddle a knob.
>
> In the second case (moving the VFO knob), you are changing both the pitch and at the same time trying to optimize SNR. Your ear-brain system has to deal with two variables.
>
> It might be easier to peak a signal using the former technique (at least I prefer it). This is true even when you are trying to peak a signal in a spectrum display (i.e., when you try to peak a signal visually instead of aurally).
>
> With that being said... after successfully peaking the signal, a single button press to move both the tone and the filter to the preferred pitch could be be ideal for me. (My Yaesu does not allow that after peaking a signal.) Programmatically moving the result to the preferred pitch is easy to do too, since the center of the filter peak is obviously known to the software.
>
> 73
> Chen, W7AY
>
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Jim Brown-10

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by The Smiths

On 10/26/2010 5:28 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> If find that in Noisy conditions I like to lower my side tone down to 380Hz, yet when I'm in a casual QSO I find that I receive better at about 450Hz.

Yes. There's another psychoacoustic principle at work here, as well as
an electronic one. 50 Hz is a larger percentage of 350 Hz than of 600
Hz. This gives the ear/brain more to work with in discriminating tones
(and noise) that are closer in Hz, and it also makes the filter have
less percentage bandwidth, which means that, all things being equal, it
has better performance than a filter designed for the higher audio
frequency.

Ah, you say, these are digital filters, so it doesn't matter. Wrong --
digital filters are simply digital emulations of analog filters, and the
math that makes analog filters do what they do has the same effect on
the emulations! So there's no free lunch -- the digital filters are
simply far more flexible, because you're building with bits, not Ls and
Cs. :)

And there's a third VERY important operational principle, which i think
you and others have alluded to -- all of this must be done VERY QUICKLY
-- the entire QSO may only last 15 seconds, and you can easily lose a CQ
frequency while taking too long to dig a weak one out of the mud.

73, Jim K9YC
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n7ws

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

I tend to agree.

However, if people insist in doing this then as I said earlier if one is going to use a tunable audio filter adjusted to a frequency other than what the "Pitch" control is currently set for, then the pitch frequency should follow along so that it affects the transmitter as well.

If this APF is implemented this way then it becomes the "live pitch control" being asked for. Any other implementation becomes an "unintended RIT control."

Wes

--- On Tue, 10/26/10, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry, but I did not "miss his point". It simply boggles my mind that
someone would want to
change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen
mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW
with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'.
I can understand why some might want to make a "change of pace" during a
long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal
operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected
-- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650
Hz, but yours may be different.
To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me.
If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one
set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have
chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about
changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of
signals on the band.

I guess this is part of the
reason we hear so many QSOs that are not
zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate
transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think
we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal
within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be
answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work
that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we
had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do exactly that.

>
>> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> CC: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
>>
>> Drew,
>>
>> ?HUH?
>> The "pitch" function that you say you want - change the pitch of a
>> received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will

change

>> the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would
>> want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the sidetone,
>> not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in
>> fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range).
>>
>> Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the
>> sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used
>> for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position of
>> the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of signals
>> being received.
>>
>> Can you be more specific about what you want.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote:
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>> I would be very happy to just

have a "live" PITCH control, as has been

>>> requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
>>> received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
>>> location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
>>> first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
>>> having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.
>>>
>>> As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control. When
>>> you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To me
>>> it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go away
>>> every time I moved the AF Gain control.
>>>
>>> The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
>>> pitch control that I really want.
>>>
>>

JBaumgarte

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by wayne burdick

Wow! I'm new to Elecraft (K3) and this list, and only enough time to read
25 or so posting each day, which leaves me in the dust. I'm too busy
setting up my M/2 station for this season and getting used to the K3 which will
be on one side for the first time. But, I gotta ask, what in the heck is
APF? Clearly, I'm suffering from TMI (too much information). Being a cw
contester for over 50 years, I guess I'm far less fussy on the details than
most of you, which is probably why I've waited so long to add my first K3
and hopefully, the second very soon.

John, N0IJ

In a message dated 10/26/2010 19:28:32 Central Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:

Exactly Don, my point exactly, You DID miss the point. You DON'T
understand why someone would want to do it. That's why you can't understand why
he's asking for what he's asking. We're not all built out of stone. We
don't all want to listen or send our CW at the same pitch all the time. If
find that in Noisy conditions I like to lower my side tone down to 380Hz, yet
when I'm in a casual QSO I find that I receive better at about 450Hz. When
I have 2 stations that are close to each other, and I need the notch to do
something for me that it doesn't do as well when I have the pitch set to a
low freq. I like to have my pitch set up around 650Hz. It just depends on
the conditions, the noise level, the stations that are in the pass band,
and how I use the tools that the K3 has to deal with them. IE DSP, NR, NB,
RF GAIN, Notch, Soon to be APF, REV CW mode, etc..... It's more than just
my "comfort zone" when it comes to the IF pass band, or centering someone in
it.

We don't all use our radios the same, as I'm sure you already know. For
this reason, I DO understand exactly why this person would want to be able
to shift his IF WHILE in a QSO, WITHOUT having to interrupt it with the side
tone pitch freq. as he's doing so. I've had this happen to me on more
than one occasion.

As for the Zero Beating, oh boy are you right. People out there have no
idea that their side tone has anything to do with their IF Center. They all
expect that you have your filter open up to 1KHz when they answer you... I
can't tell you how many times people will answer me as much as 100Hz off of
my IF center. But they can't all afford a K3 I guess. The new rigs these
days don't all tell you when you're in the IF center. The ones that do
pretty much have a little orange light that comes on, and most of the people
that use these radios don't even understand why that's there.

us.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote:
> > Wow Don, you really really missed his point. He's trying to say that
the Pitch control turns on a tone generator while you're setting it. He's
asking that when you push the button that sets the pitch freq. that the tone
isn't generated.. That way he can hear the person he's talking to while
adjusting the freq. of his IF's center pass band area. Plenty of us wish we
had this ability.. There are MANY times when I feel like I want to adjust the
tone of the persons signal without moving it away from the IF center, and
then having to chase after it with the shift knob.. His idea would do
exactly that.

> >
> >> Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 10:50:51 -0400
> >> From: [hidden email]
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> CC: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
> >>
> >> Drew,
> >>
> >> ?HUH?
> >> The "pitch" function that you say you want - change the pitch of a
> >> received signal - already exists, just turn the VFO knob, it will

change
> >> the pitch of the signals which are being received. Normally one would
> >> want to tune the desired signal to the pitch which matches the
sidetone,
> >> not the other way around. Just tap the SPOT button to zero-beat, in
> >> fact the K3 can do that automatically (within a limited range).
> >>
> >> Things that are changed by the PITCH control are the pitch of the
> >> sidetone you listen to during transmission, the frequency offset used
> >> for transmission and the CWT center frequency as well as the position
of
> >> the center of the CW passband - it does not change the pitch of
signals

> >> being received.
> >>
> >> Can you be more specific about what you want.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Don W3FPR
> >>
> >> On 10/26/2010 9:37 AM, drewko wrote:
> >>> Paul,
> >>>
> >>> I would be very happy to just have a "live" PITCH control, as has

been
> >>> requested a number of times. By "live" I mean being able to hear the
> >>> received signals as you vary their pitch, without changing their
> >>> location in the passband. That would be much better than having to
> >>> first adjust RIT for a more suitable pitch tone then subsequently
> >>> having to catch up to it with SHIFT as you describe below.
> >>>
> >>> As it is now, PITCH is a sidetone control, not a signal control.
When
> >>> you turn on PITCH the sidetone comes on and the signals go away. To
me
> >>> it is as nearly inconvenient as it would be having the signals go
away

> >>> every time I moved the AF Gain control.
> >>>
> >>> The peaking part of APF would be a nice enhancement but it's the live
> >>> pitch control that I really want.
> >>>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >

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Ken Kopp-3

APF For K3: progress report

Hi John!

Welcome to the list....

You'll find much discussion on here ... some of
interest to you and some not, but overall, a great
source of information.

"APF" refers to "audio pass (or peaking) filter",
a feature common on many radios, and sometimes
known by other names, depending on the manufacturer.

It's best represented in the FT-990 and FT-1000D, IMO.

73! Ken Kopp - K0PP
[hidden email]

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The Smiths

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by n7ws

Wes, I don't think that you're getting it. The APF has nothing to do with TONE, it has to do with Peaking a freq. within the Band Pass filter area. You don't always want to change the tone just because you're moving the peak of a signal.. We're not talking about an IF center peak, we're talking about peaking a PART of the tone you're already listening to... There's no need to move the RIT or the Pitch with the APF at all.. You're just confusing things, and asking for changes that have nothing to do with an APF control knob. You have to separate the idea of freq., tone, and Peaking a portion of a signal... They're ALL different things here.
My shift knob sets the center of my IF Pass band, my RIT knob moves people into the tone that my Pitch is set to (yes center of the IF usually), and APF should peak a portion of that IF area that I choose (like a manual Notch filter does, but reverse)... Not move it around. 3 different things here... Does it make more sense to you?

Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2010 18:06:00 -0700
From: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] APF For K3: progress report
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
CC: [hidden email]

I tend to agree.

However, if people insist in doing this then as I said earlier if one is going to use a tunable audio filter adjusted to a frequency other than what the "Pitch" control is currently set for, then the pitch frequency should follow along so that it affects the transmitter as well.

If this APF is implemented this way then it becomes the "live pitch control" being asked for. Any other implementation becomes an "unintended RIT control."

Wes

--- On Tue, 10/26/10, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry, but I did not "miss his point". It simply boggles my mind that

someone would want to change his chosen sidetone pitch. I have chosen
mine carefully - that is the pitch where my mind/ears perceive the CW
with the best clarity and comfort over the 'long haul'.
I can understand why some might want to make a "change of pace" during a
long contest, and change the sidetone pitch a bit - but for normal
operating, I want the pitch to be the same as I have previously selected
-- that is the pitch where I can operate CW best. My own choice is 650
Hz, but yours may be different.
To change the pitch for a particular QSO seems counterproductive to me.
If one is hearing a signal best at a pitch which is not the current one
set for the sidetone, I would think that to be an indication that I have
chosen the wrong sidetone pitch and I should think seriously about
changing to that pitch that I perceive to be the best in the midst of
signals on the band.

I guess this is part of the reason we hear so many QSOs that are not
zero beat. We used to know how to do that very well with separate
transmitters and receivers, but in these days of transceivers, I think
we have lost that ability - it seems to me that if we can hear a signal
within our passband, that we should just transmit and expect to be
answered - with no need to zero-beat. Sorry, but it just does not work
that way - the other station may have narrow filters on and may not hear us.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 10/26/2010 5:13 PM, The Smiths wrote:

drewko

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by AC7AC

Yes, Ron, I also prefer wide bandpass for CW most of the time. Still,
it would be very nice indeed on those infrequent occasions to not have
to do the RIT/SHIFT mambo when using a narrow filter...

Actually, even with my typical wide open filter I think I'd use a
live-signal pitch control quite often, not having to necessarilly
bother with RIT or split VFOs. Seems like a natural that CW signal
pitch would be a parameter that should have a dedicated control; but
instead it takes several steps to accomplish.

Sorry about derailing the APF topic; I think I lost track of how that
was going to be implemented on the K3, but I'm looking forward to it
in any case.

73,
Drew
AF2Z

On Tue, 26 Oct 2010 08:53:08 -0700, Ron AC7AC wrote:

>He wants to vary the pitch without moving the signal in the bandpass, Don.
>That's a non-issue using a wide bandpass and one of the reasons I don't use
>narrow filters except on rare occasions when absolutely necessary.
>
>With a wide pass band I can just move the VFO (I'm *always* in SPLIT mode so
>TX stays on frequency.)
>
>Like Drew, I often shift the tone of the signal as I'm copying based on the
>nature of the noise, but it's not practical to do with a very sharp filter
>when straining to make out a weak signal. Losing the signal at all while
>juggling SHIFT means missing characters and hunting for it again with
>uncertain results.
>
>Ron AC7AC
>
>-----Original Message-----
>

John-483

Re: APF For K3: progress report

In reply to this post by The Smiths

At 10:08 PM 26/10/10, you wrote:
>and APF should peak a portion of that IF area that I choose (like a
>manual Notch filter does, but reverse)... Not move it around. 3
>different things here... Does it make more sense to you?
>
Like the old Heathkit Q multiplier, QF-1, peak or null option?

John
k7up
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