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ARRL Field Day

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Scotty Long

ARRL Field Day

ARRL Field Day...
Well I had a good time talking with friends and family that was about it. The heat on Saturday here in Nebraska was terrible the measured temp inside my tent was 104+ F with 90+++% humidity. But hey that's what is says in the course description "Other than favorable conditions". I had the Elecraft K1 all set up and tried to call Polar Bear Kens furry hide WA8REI on 20m CW as he finished a QSO with no joy Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was all set to run then the front end of K1 was overloaded by our 20m phone station running a beam at about 40 feet. Every time they called CQ field day I just could not do anything. I switched to my back up rig the Yaesu FT817... The AGC cut the audio on this rig as well but at least I was able to do some quick search and pounce work between the phone stations transmissions. I think I worked 17 total contacts Wow... Just for information the phone ssb station was running a Drake TR7 100+ watts into a 20m beam 40ft. I had the K1 or FT817 into a Buddipole v
ertical antenna at close to maximum separation ARRL field day rules... all station properly grounded... I shut down late afternoon and departed the area for cold air and drink... P.S. we all run band pass filters but we were on the same band...
73/Scotty/NU0S/Field Day K0KKV/Nebraska
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Nr4c

Re: ARRL Field Day

The Williamsburg Area ARC ran two K3s on a pair of 40, 20, 10 meter fan-dipoles at about 50-60 feet and mostly on same band. We had no noticeable interference either way at 100 watts. We used only the filtering built in the radio. CW radio used a 200 hertz filter and the phone station used the 2.8 and DSP.

On 80 meters the phone station used 1/4 wave wire vertical (top at around 80 ft) with two 1/4 wave elevated radials and CW used a full wave horizontal loop at about 40 ft. Again no noticeable interference on same band.

K3 RULES!

...bill nr4c

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID

Scotty Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

>ARRL Field Day...
>Well I had a good time talking with friends and family that was about it. The heat on Saturday here in Nebraska was terrible the measured temp inside my tent was 104+ F with 90+++% humidity. But hey that's what is says in the course description "Other than favorable conditions". I had the Elecraft K1 all set up and tried to call Polar Bear Kens furry hide WA8REI on 20m CW as he finished a QSO with no joy Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was all set to run then the front end of K1 was overloaded by our 20m phone station running a beam at about 40 feet. Every time they called CQ field day I just could not do anything. I switched to my back up rig the Yaesu FT817... The AGC cut the audio on this rig as well but at least I was able to do some quick search and pounce work between the phone stations transmissions. I think I worked 17 total contacts Wow... Just for information the phone ssb station was running a Drake TR7 100+ watts into a 20m beam 40ft. I had the K1 or FT817 into a Buddipole
v

> ertical antenna at close to maximum separation ARRL field day rules... all station properly grounded... I shut down late afternoon and departed the area for cold air and drink... P.S. we all run band pass filters but we were on the same band...
>73/Scotty/NU0S/Field Day K0KKV/Nebraska
>______________________________________________________________
>Elecraft mailing list
>Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
>This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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ny4g

Re: ARRL Field Day

The Field Day Operations for WM4AA and NY4G was up on Mt Pisgah in a campground near the Blue Ridge Parkway in NC at an elevation of approximately 5000 ft (give or take a few feet). The rigs were a couple of KX3's running on external SLAs. It was also our first opportunity to use the pneumatic tennis ball antenna launcher I built and 70 ft high trees were a "piece of cake". The weather was wonderful - temps in the low 70s in the middle of the day and below 60 at night on Saturday and the views were spectacular. The antennas were a full size twin lead fed dipole (a modified G5RV) - tuned by the KX3's without even blinking from 80m through 10m, a 10-20-40 ParEndFedZ and a 15m monopole. I took advantage of the IQ output of the KX3 and it was S&P all the way on the NaP3 panadapter. WM4AA employed about 85% S&P and 15% calling CQ. We had a 20w solar panel to help keep the batteries fresh. There were absolutely no problems with the rigs and the KX3's performed marvelously.
It was our first Field Day with KX3s. WM4AA's was brand new - just received a few days before - SN ~4500 and mine was built after last years FD in August 2012 (SN 1211) and FD 2012 was done with a couple of K2's. Kudos to Elecraft for engineering such a fine rig for QRP Field Days.
Ariel NY4G

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Scotty Long

Re: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by Scotty Long

Our club was running 5A with SSB and CW stations on 20m at the same time... Bad choice...
73/Scotty/NU0SK1-4 #3206K2 I hope to build one as soon as I save up enough lunch money...HI HI..

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day
> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 14:27:44 -0400
>
> Hi Scotty:
>
> With two stations.... you guys should have set rules: no operating -
> in- the same band at the same time. One station, say, on 20 and the
> other on 15 during daylight, then one on 80 and one on 20 or 40 at
> night.
>
> In my case, I was solo.... 1B battery.... so it didn't matter. :)
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
> KX3 #211
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Scotty Long wrote:
>
> > ARRL Field Day...
> > Well I had a good time talking with friends and family that was
> > about it. The heat on Saturday here in Nebraska was terrible the
> > measured temp inside my tent was 104+ F with 90+++% humidity. But
> > hey that's what is says in the course description "Other than
> > favorable conditions". I had the Elecraft K1 all set up and tried to
> > call Polar Bear Kens furry hide WA8REI on 20m CW as he finished a
> > QSO with no joy Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was all set to run then the front
> > end of K1 was overloaded by our 20m phone station running a beam at
> > about 40 feet. Every time they called CQ field day I just could not
> > do anything. I switched to my back up rig the Yaesu FT817... The
> > AGC cut the audio on this rig as well but at least I was able to do
> > some quick search and pounce work between the phone stations
> > transmissions. I think I worked 17 total contacts Wow... Just for
> > information the phone ssb station was running a Drake TR7 100+ watts
> > into a 20m beam 40ft. I had the K1 or FT817 into a Buddipole v
> > ertical antenna at close to maximum separation ARRL field day
> > rules... all station properly grounded... I shut down late afternoon
> > and departed the area for cold air and drink... P.S. we all run band
> > pass filters but we were on the same band...
> > 73/Scotty/NU0S/Field Day K0KKV/Nebraska
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Scotty Long

Re: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by Scotty Long

Very cool I told the guys not to point the beam at me but there must have been good DX in my direction hi hi... we use band pass filters as well; it was just my station with the most interference problems. My 5 watts on 20m with the K1 did not bother the 100+ watt ssb 20m station... We live in what you folks call fly over country so we have to swing the beam or run a less directional antenna like a vertical...I needed more distance from that station field day Saturday. Lessons learned for next year...

72/73/Scotty/NUØS

Mark Pride <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scotty,

Our club has successfully run 5A for the past 6 years and winning every year. We run a CW and SSB station on each band at the same time while keeping within the 5A rules. No issue but we use bandpass filters (to keep the other bands out) and separate the stations by a few hundred feet and being from the east coast, point our yagis (monoband yagis) West and place the deepest null in the pattern toward the station at the other end of the band. Works well.

I recall a few times of testing, no noise from SSB while listening on the CW end of the band - nice!

Regards,
Mark, K1RX
PCARC FD 2013 K1T

________________________________
From: Scotty Long <[hidden email]>
To: Ray Sills <[hidden email]>; elecraft Post <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day

Our club was running 5A with SSB and CW stations on 20m at the same time... Bad choice...
73/Scotty/NU0SK1-4 #3206K2 I hope to build one as soon as I save up enough lunch money...HI HI..

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day
> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 14:27:44 -0400
>
> Hi Scotty:
>
> With two stations.... you guys should have set rules: no operating -
> in- the same band at the same time. One station, say, on 20 and the
> other on 15 during daylight, then one on 80 and one on 20 or 40 at
> night.
>
> In my case, I was solo.... 1B battery.... so it didn't matter. :)
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
> KX3 #211
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Scotty Long wrote:
>
> > ARRL Field Day...
> > Well I had a good time talking with friends and family that was
> > about it. The heat on Saturday here in Nebraska was terrible the
> > measured temp inside my tent was 104+ F with 90+++% humidity. But
> > hey that's what is says in the course description "Other than
> > favorable conditions". I had the Elecraft K1 all set up and tried to
> > call Polar Bear Kens furry hide WA8REI on 20m CW as he finished a
> > QSO with no joy Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was all set to run then the front
> > end of K1 was overloaded by our 20m phone station running a beam at
> > about 40 feet. Every time they called CQ field day I just could not
> > do anything. I switched to my back up rig the Yaesu FT817... The
> > AGC cut the audio on this rig as well but at least I was able to do
> > some quick search and pounce work between the phone stations
> > transmissions. I think I worked 17 total contacts Wow... Just for
> > information the phone ssb station was running a Drake TR7 100+ watts
> > into a 20m beam 40ft. I had the K1 or FT817 into a Buddipole v
> > ertical antenna at close to maximum separation ARRL field day
> > rules... all station properly grounded... I shut down late afternoon
> > and departed the area for cold air and drink... P.S. we all run band
> > pass filters but we were on the same band...
> > 73/Scotty/NU0S/Field Day K0KKV/Nebraska
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Scotty Long

Re: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by Scotty Long

Thanks Mark have a great one...

72/73/Scotty/NUØS

Mark Pride <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I feel your pain. This issue is an evolutionary or incremental process to resolve the interference issues.

At my home station, I have run 5 stations at 1.5 KW (HF bands) and had to deal with problems you only can read about!! Amazing what happens when you run HP, antennas pointed everywhere and all kinds of questionable cable/connector issues.

This year, our 3 el. 20 M monobander generated some broadband noise (tested before FD began) and it was resolved when we replaced a few rusty screws, etc. Hey, its all fun!

Regards,
Mark, K1RX

________________________________
From: Scotty Long <[hidden email]>
To: Mark Pride <[hidden email]>; elecraft Post <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day

Very cool I told the guys not to point the beam at me but there must have been good DX in my direction hi hi... we use band pass filters as well; it was just my station with the most interference problems. My 5 watts on 20m with the K1 did not bother the 100+ watt ssb 20m station... We live in what you folks call fly over country so we have to swing the beam or run a less directional antenna like a vertical...I needed more distance from that station field day Saturday. Lessons learned for next year...

72/73/Scotty/NUØS

Mark Pride <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scotty,

Our club has successfully run 5A for the past 6 years and winning every year. We run a CW and SSB station on each band at the same time while keeping within the 5A rules. No issue but we use bandpass filters (to keep the other bands out) and separate the stations by a few hundred feet and being from the east coast, point our yagis (monoband yagis) West and place the deepest null in the pattern toward the station at the other end of the band. Works well.

I recall a few times of testing, no noise from SSB while listening on the CW end of the band - nice!

Regards,
Mark, K1RX
PCARC FD 2013 K1T

________________________________
From: Scotty Long <[hidden email]>
To: Ray Sills <[hidden email]>; elecraft Post <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day

Our club was running 5A with SSB and CW stations on 20m at the same time... Bad choice...
73/Scotty/NU0SK1-4 #3206K2 I hope to build one as soon as I save up enough lunch money...HI HI..

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day
> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 14:27:44 -0400
>
> Hi Scotty:
>
> With two stations.... you guys should have set rules: no operating -
> in- the same band at the same time. One station, say, on 20 and the
> other on 15 during daylight, then one on 80 and one on 20 or 40 at
> night.
>
> In my case, I was solo.... 1B battery.... so it didn't matter. :)
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
> KX3 #211
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Scotty Long wrote:
>
> > ARRL Field Day...
> > Well I had a good time talking with friends and family that was
> > about it. The heat on Saturday here in Nebraska was terrible the
> > measured temp inside my tent was 104+ F with 90+++% humidity. But
> > hey that's what is says in the course description "Other than
> > favorable conditions". I had the Elecraft K1 all set up and tried to
> > call Polar Bear Kens furry hide WA8REI on 20m CW as he finished a
> > QSO with no joy Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was all set to run then the front
> > end of K1 was overloaded by our 20m phone station running a beam at
> > about 40 feet. Every time they called CQ field day I just could not
> > do anything. I switched to my back up rig the Yaesu FT817... The
> > AGC cut the audio on this rig as well but at least I was able to do
> > some quick search and pounce work between the phone stations
> > transmissions. I think I worked 17 total contacts Wow... Just for
> > information the phone ssb station was running a Drake TR7 100+ watts
> > into a 20m beam 40ft. I had the K1 or FT817 into a Buddipole v
> > ertical antenna at close to maximum separation ARRL field day
> > rules... all station properly grounded... I shut down late afternoon
> > and departed the area for cold air and drink... P.S. we all run band
> > pass filters but we were on the same band...
> > 73/Scotty/NU0S/Field Day K0KKV/Nebraska
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Scotty Long

Re: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by Scotty Long

Also thanks for all the great info I will pass this to our field day committee...

72/73/Scotty/NUØS

Scotty Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Mark have a great one...

72/73/Scotty/NUØS

Mark Pride <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I feel your pain. This issue is an evolutionary or incremental process to resolve the interference issues.

At my home station, I have run 5 stations at 1.5 KW (HF bands) and had to deal with problems you only can read about!! Amazing what happens when you run HP, antennas pointed everywhere and all kinds of questionable cable/connector issues.

This year, our 3 el. 20 M monobander generated some broadband noise (tested before FD began) and it was resolved when we replaced a few rusty screws, etc. Hey, its all fun!

Regards,
Mark, K1RX

________________________________
From: Scotty Long <[hidden email]>
To: Mark Pride <[hidden email]>; elecraft Post <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day

Very cool I told the guys not to point the beam at me but there must have been good DX in my direction hi hi... we use band pass filters as well; it was just my station with the most interference problems. My 5 watts on 20m with the K1 did not bother the 100+ watt ssb 20m station... We live in what you folks call fly over country so we have to swing the beam or run a less directional antenna like a vertical...I needed more distance from that station field day Saturday. Lessons learned for next year...

72/73/Scotty/NUØS

Mark Pride <[hidden email]> wrote:

Scotty,

Our club has successfully run 5A for the past 6 years and winning every year. We run a CW and SSB station on each band at the same time while keeping within the 5A rules. No issue but we use bandpass filters (to keep the other bands out) and separate the stations by a few hundred feet and being from the east coast, point our yagis (monoband yagis) West and place the deepest null in the pattern toward the station at the other end of the band. Works well.

I recall a few times of testing, no noise from SSB while listening on the CW end of the band - nice!

Regards,
Mark, K1RX
PCARC FD 2013 K1T

________________________________
From: Scotty Long <[hidden email]>
To: Ray Sills <[hidden email]>; elecraft Post <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 24, 2013 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day

Our club was running 5A with SSB and CW stations on 20m at the same time... Bad choice...
73/Scotty/NU0SK1-4 #3206K2 I hope to build one as soon as I save up enough lunch money...HI HI..

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day
> Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2013 14:27:44 -0400
>
> Hi Scotty:
>
> With two stations.... you guys should have set rules: no operating -
> in- the same band at the same time. One station, say, on 20 and the
> other on 15 during daylight, then one on 80 and one on 20 or 40 at
> night.
>
> In my case, I was solo.... 1B battery.... so it didn't matter. :)
>
> 73 de Ray
> K2ULR
> KX3 #211
>
>
> On Jun 24, 2013, at 12:12 PM, Scotty Long wrote:
>
> > ARRL Field Day...
> > Well I had a good time talking with friends and family that was
> > about it. The heat on Saturday here in Nebraska was terrible the
> > measured temp inside my tent was 104+ F with 90+++% humidity. But
> > hey that's what is says in the course description "Other than
> > favorable conditions". I had the Elecraft K1 all set up and tried to
> > call Polar Bear Kens furry hide WA8REI on 20m CW as he finished a
> > QSO with no joy Grrrrrrrrrrrrr. I was all set to run then the front
> > end of K1 was overloaded by our 20m phone station running a beam at
> > about 40 feet. Every time they called CQ field day I just could not
> > do anything. I switched to my back up rig the Yaesu FT817... The
> > AGC cut the audio on this rig as well but at least I was able to do
> > some quick search and pounce work between the phone stations
> > transmissions. I think I worked 17 total contacts Wow... Just for
> > information the phone ssb station was running a Drake TR7 100+ watts
> > into a 20m beam 40ft. I had the K1 or FT817 into a Buddipole v
> > ertical antenna at close to maximum separation ARRL field day
> > rules... all station properly grounded... I shut down late afternoon
> > and departed the area for cold air and drink... P.S. we all run band
> > pass filters but we were on the same band...
> > 73/Scotty/NU0S/Field Day K0KKV/Nebraska
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net/
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

______________________________________________________________
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Bill Frantz

Re: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by Scotty Long

The West Valley Amateur Radio Association field day operation
was set up as it has been for the last few years on Mora Hill.
Mora Hill is at an altitude of about 500' on the west side of
the Santa Clara Valley, California. This year we were 9A SCV. We
had 4 towers with various Uda-Yagi antennas for 20M, 15M, and
10M with wire antennas for 40M and 80M.

On HF we were an all K3 operation and for the second year in a
row experienced no mutual interference between our transmitters.
We did set up our antennas in a line, all pointed at the east
coast, so the side lobe rejection helped reduce interference. I
was operating the digital station for most of the event and the
only indication I had of other stations in our operation was a
strong track on the P3 from our CW operation.

I did get significant interference from another field day
operation. They were set up perhaps 1/4 mile away in the major
lobe of our antennas using 100 watts. When I turned the RF gain
down low enough to prevent overload from their signal it looked
like a clean PSK signal, so I think the wide-band interference
was being generated in my receive chain. However, with the gain
that low, I couldn't receive anyone else. :-)

The K3 I was using has 250Hz 8 pole and 2.1KHz 8 pole filters in
addition to the 2.7 and FM filters. I could get the interfering
station out of the passband on the 250 filter quite easily, but
there was still a wide band of noise covering the entire 2KHz
band of the computer waterfall. Using the notch filter didn't
eliminate the noise.

In the end we had 139 digital QSOs in the log and many more CW
and SSB ones. We all ended up tired and happy which means we had
a good field day.

Does anyone have any ideas about how to improve reception under
these conditions?

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |"Web security is like medicine - trying to
do good for
408-356-8506 |an evolved body of kludges" - Mark Miller
www.pwpconsult.com |

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

Re: ARRL Field Day

Administrator

Hi Bill,

Its much more likely they had wide band TX phase noise that was causing your problems. (Unless they were running K3s :-) There is not much on the receive side that you can do to eliminate that.

Eric
elecraft.com
_..._

On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:37 AM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The West Valley Amateur Radio Association field day operation was set up as it has been for the last few years on Mora Hill. Mora Hill is at an altitude of about 500' on the west side of the Santa Clara Valley, California. This year we were 9A SCV. We had 4 towers with various Uda-Yagi antennas for 20M, 15M, and 10M with wire antennas for 40M and 80M.
>
> On HF we were an all K3 operation and for the second year in a row experienced no mutual interference between our transmitters. We did set up our antennas in a line, all pointed at the east coast, so the side lobe rejection helped reduce interference. I was operating the digital station for most of the event and the only indication I had of other stations in our operation was a strong track on the P3 from our CW operation.
>
> I did get significant interference from another field day operation. They were set up perhaps 1/4 mile away in the major lobe of our antennas using 100 watts. When I turned the RF gain down low enough to prevent overload from their signal it looked like a clean PSK signal, so I think the wide-band interference was being generated in my receive chain. However, with the gain that low, I couldn't receive anyone else. :-)
>
> The K3 I was using has 250Hz 8 pole and 2.1KHz 8 pole filters in addition to the 2.7 and FM filters. I could get the interfering station out of the passband on the 250 filter quite easily, but there was still a wide band of noise covering the entire 2KHz band of the computer waterfall. Using the notch filter didn't eliminate the noise.
>
> In the end we had 139 digital QSOs in the log and many more CW and SSB ones. We all ended up tired and happy which means we had a good field day.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas about how to improve reception under these conditions?
>
> Cheers - Bill, AE6JV
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Bill Frantz |"Web security is like medicine - trying to do good for
> 408-356-8506 |an evolved body of kludges" - Mark Miller
> www.pwpconsult.com |
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

KE6BB

Re: ARRL Field Day

Bill's message brought a question to mind:

I am relatively new to PSK (operate mainly CW), but after receiving my KX3, started to take an interest in it. After listening for some time, I became curious as to why some hams were giving out poor IMD reports and verbal reports of "You are splattering all over" when I wasn't always seeing the same thing. Some folks were just downright rude with their reports. I realize that different software packages may give different IMD measurements, but a few were grossly different. There seems to be a lot of information about getting things set right on the transmit side, but not so much on the receive side. Certainly, making sure the RF gain is down is important to keep all the amplifier stages linear, but little is ever mentioned about AGC. It is similar to ALC on the transmit side, and is certainly non-linear if you are operating near or "through" the threshold (not sure I described that very well). For those reasons, I would think that receiver
AGC could also generate the IMD that these stations are seeing causing them to give out poor reports. Admittedly, reducing RF gain helps to keep you from activating AGC, but seems like maybe turning AGC off before giving a signal quality report would be advisable. Some of the comments I have heard have kept me from jumping into PSK with both feet. They take the fun out of operating.

The website http://rsq-info.net/ has been most helpful, but I don't recall seeing any mention of AGC, so maybe I am completely off base here. I am really a PSK novice, so any comments would be appreciated. I haven't run any digital modes (except cw) since I sold my Model 19 TTY. Back then, we didn't have an easy way to measure IMD or even see the sidebands that you see on a waterfall, and you almost couldn't hear the audio over the clatter of the Model 19 once you had your signal sync'd up. We just operated.

Mark
KE6BB

________________________________
From: Eric Swartz WA6HHQ - Elecraft <[hidden email]>
To: Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
Cc: elecraft reflector <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 26, 2013 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ARRL Field Day

Hi Bill,

Its much more likely they had wide band TX phase noise that was causing your problems. (Unless they were running K3s :-) There is not much on the receive side that you can do to eliminate that.

Eric
elecraft.com
_..._

On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:37 AM, Bill Frantz <[hidden email]> wrote:

W4JBB

Re: ARRL Field Day

Mark,

I have to admit, before I started using WINMOR, I didn't know the
information I'm about to tell you. I was probably splattering all over
the place too. Also, I think this only has to do with AFSK not FSK
(someone correct me if I'm wrong). I know you asked about the AGC, but
*usually* this has to do with ALC of the transmitting station.

Splattering *usually* (I say usually because *always* is too definite)
has to do with TX audio gain. On both the KX3 and the K3, you want to
watch your ALC. Adjust your transmit audio (another reason to use an
external soundcard for AFSK modes and not rely on the rig to do it
IMNSHO) so that your ALC shows four bars with the fifth bar flickering
(most other radios require *no* ALC, but the Elecraft rigs are different
due to where their ALC actually kicks in). An example of when this is
not the case is another PSK station within a mile or so of your station.

Splattering is not dependent on output power of the rig. I can (and do
on WINMOR) transmit 100W and have a clean signal by adjusting my ALC so
that it is four bars with the fifth flickering. I have seen folks
running 20W and be all over the place. I worked a station on FD who was
all up and down the passband with artifacts. I kindly told him that he
was splattering and that he needed to adjust his transmit audio - within
a few minutes, he was clean. No one need be an "alpha-hotel" when it
comes to correction.

I will say that in AFSK modes, if you get much off center of the
passband (about 1500Hz), you will need to adjust ALC again. I have
started to just practice turning the VFO. This also helps with the
500Hz filter; especially if I want to tighten it up a bit. On the KX3,
this seems worse than on the K3 and I don't know why. I don't really
use the KX3 for digital modes because of having to constantly swap out
cables and no monitor of my transmit audio. I just turn down the power
on the K3 and "let 'er rip."

In all honesty, when I find a lot of folks moving to a mode, I start
moving away from it. I rarely work PSK31 anymore. I prefer Olivia
(8/250 for weak signal). I got on the JT65 bandwagon just long enough
to get my WAS and I haven't operated it since. Yeah, that's selfish I
know, but I got tired of folks all over the passband and outside the
passband interfering with other operations that were/are not JT65. It
seems a lot of folks get a license and forget about the part of the
rules that say only use the amount of power necessary to complete the
contact and don't interfere with others. I did work PSK31 on FD, but I
started out on RTTY and really enjoyed it. I may actually start using
it again since it seems folks are moving away from it on a regular
basis. That being said, I still like CW and operate (when I operate)
mostly in that mode.

Sorry for the long dissertation (I have a friend who calls me verbose).
I have tried to make sure that any of my signals never interfere with
anyone else. If I'm on the air and a nearby signal comes on, I usually
just go to another band. He's a friend of mine and he's doing nothing
wrong, we're just too close to each other to operate except into a dummy
load. There is plenty of space and lots of bands to work. I may even
add the 6M wire to my hexbeam and start going there for some VHF stuff.
Who knows. The hobby is vast and looking for explorers and adventurers.

73,
Joel - W4JBB

On 6/27/13 1:45 AM, Mark Petiford wrote:

> Bill's message brought a question to mind:
>
> I am relatively new to PSK (operate mainly CW), but after receiving my KX3, started to take an interest in it. After listening for some time, I became curious as to why some hams were giving out poor IMD reports and verbal reports of "You are splattering all over" when I wasn't always seeing the same thing. Some folks were just downright rude with their reports. I realize that different software packages may give different IMD measurements, but a few were grossly different. There seems to be a lot of information about getting things set right on the transmit side, but not so much on the receive side. Certainly, making sure the RF gain is down is important to keep all the amplifier stages linear, but little is ever mentioned about AGC. It is similar to ALC on the transmit side, and is certainly non-linear if you are operating near or "through" the threshold (not sure I described that very well). For those reasons, I would think that receiver
> AGC could also generate the IMD that these stations are seeing causing them to give out poor reports. Admittedly, reducing RF gain helps to keep you from activating AGC, but seems like maybe turning AGC off before giving a signal quality report would be advisable. Some of the comments I have heard have kept me from jumping into PSK with both feet. They take the fun out of operating.
>
>
> The website http://rsq-info.net/ has been most helpful, but I don't recall seeing any mention of AGC, so maybe I am completely off base here. I am really a PSK novice, so any comments would be appreciated. I haven't run any digital modes (except cw) since I sold my Model 19 TTY. Back then, we didn't have an easy way to measure IMD or even see the sidebands that you see on a waterfall, and you almost couldn't hear the audio over the clatter of the Model 19 once you had your signal sync'd up. We just operated.
>
>
> Mark
> KE6BB

Jim Brown-10

Setting TX Levels for Digital Modes

On 6/27/2013 3:42 AM, Joel Black wrote:
> Splattering *usually* (I say usually because *always* is too definite)
> has to do with TX audio gain.

Actually, distortion can be created almost ANYWHERE in the signal chain.
With digital modes, that starts with the COMPUTER. In general, the
sound quality of computer sound cards is mediocre at best. In a GOOD
audio stage, distortion should be low until the stage clips -- that is,
until the signal approaches the DC supply "rails" -- but in many
computer sound cards, distortion rises with signal levels of only half
of clip level. Putting numbers to it, typical sound cards clip at around
1 volt, but their distortion begins to rise at 0.5 volt or even lower.
I measured distortion at -40 dB with 0.5 volt out of my Thinkpads, and
-30 dB at a level just below clip. That difference produces sidebands
that are almost 2 S-units stronger!

It's pretty easy to set audio levels, but it's VERY important to do that
right. You can do it with a scope or a voltmeter on the output of your
sound card, or you can do it with your ears listening to headphones
plugged into the sound card. With the voltmeter, simply increase the
sound card output until it no longer produces more voltage, then reduce
the computer output to a bit less than half that voltage. So if max out
is 1 volt, reduce it to about 0.4 volts.

With headphones and your ears, increase the computer output until you
hear the sound of the digital tones start to get raspy, or harsh -- that
is distortion. Back the computer gain down slightly until the
raspyiness goes away, then reduce it further until the tones SOUND half
as loud to you. This works because we humans hear a change of 6-10 dB as
being half as loud.

Once you've got the computer as clean as it is going to get, simply
follow the instructions in the K3 or KX3 manual to set levels in the radio.

Another observation. A few years ago, I surveyed low cost USB sound
cards sold for use in the home studio and DJ market, found several that
looked promising, and bought two of them. Both made significant
improvements in the DECODING of digital signals, and also cleaned up the
computer's TX audio. These were NOT expensive units -- a little Numark
unit ($35 at B&H Photo) worked just as well as a $75 Tascam. And, unlike
the more expensive SignalLink, which has Pin One Problems that cause
RFI, the Numark and the Tascam are free of these problems.

73, Jim K9YC
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Setting TX Levels for Digital Modes

On 6/27/2013 7:21 AM, Ross Primrose wrote:
> This Numark?

Yes.

> There's so many Tascam products, I can't begin to figure out which one
> you might be talking about...

I bought a simple stereo unit that has since been discontinued. The
replacement has more inputs, and costs a bit more.

73, Jim K9YC
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Setting TX Levels for Digital Modes

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

On 6/27/2013 8:33 AM, WM3M wrote:
> Could you please give me more info on the pin 1 RFI problem?

Study the RFI link in my previous post. And more at
http://k9yc.com/publish.htm

73, Jim K9YC

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Bill Frantz

Re: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by Eric Swartz - WA6HHQ

I also think phase noise is the likely culprit. A look at the
field day writeup in their club newsletter shows no K3s or K2s
in their photos. The only rig mentioned specifically was an Icom
IC-756PRO3 for their GOTA station and the photographs show a 3
element beam. In response to an email they said they were
running 100 watts on all of their transmitters. I think 100
watts with a standard transmitter on PSK might be in the worst
part of the performance envelope.

My guess was that their signal might have been as much as 8 dB
stronger than that of our nearby CW station. They were about 1/2
mile from us and our CW and digital antennas were about 600'
apart. I calculate 13dB for the power difference, minus 12dB for
the inverse square law, and a wild guess of an additional 7dB
for the antenna patterns. They were a lot closer in frequency
than our CW operation (1 KHz vs 20-60 KHz) which doesn't help.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 6/27/13 at 10:16 PM, [hidden email] (Eric Swartz WA6HHQ -
Elecraft) wrote:

>Its much more likely they had wide band TX phase noise that was
>causing your problems. (Unless they were running K3s :-) There
>is not much on the receive side that you can do to eliminate that.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | QRP: So you can talk about | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | the ones that got away. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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EricJ-2

Re: Setting TX Levels for Digital Modes

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I've always suspected the computer sound card was a limiting factor in
receiving digital modes. I recently bought the recommended EMU0204 for
use with LP-PAN. While waiting for the parts to bring out the K2 IF, I
tried the EMU 0204 in place of the computer sound card for JT65-HF.
There was about a 3-6 db improvement in received signals. I could decode
that much deeper into the mud than I could before.

I'm going to try your advice on the TX side now.

Eric
KE6US

On 6/27/2013 7:01 AM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On 6/27/2013 3:42 AM, Joel Black wrote:
>> Splattering *usually* (I say usually because *always* is too
>> definite) has to do with TX audio gain.
>
> Actually, distortion can be created almost ANYWHERE in the signal
> chain. With digital modes, that starts with the COMPUTER. In general,
> the sound quality of computer sound cards is mediocre at best. In a
> GOOD audio stage, distortion should be low until the stage clips --
> that is, until the signal approaches the DC supply "rails" -- but in
> many computer sound cards, distortion rises with signal levels of only
> half of clip level. Putting numbers to it, typical sound cards clip at
> around 1 volt, but their distortion begins to rise at 0.5 volt or even
> lower. I measured distortion at -40 dB with 0.5 volt out of my
> Thinkpads, and -30 dB at a level just below clip. That difference
> produces sidebands that are almost 2 S-units stronger!
>
> It's pretty easy to set audio levels, but it's VERY important to do
> that right. You can do it with a scope or a voltmeter on the output
> of your sound card, or you can do it with your ears listening to
> headphones plugged into the sound card. With the voltmeter, simply
> increase the sound card output until it no longer produces more
> voltage, then reduce the computer output to a bit less than half that
> voltage. So if max out is 1 volt, reduce it to about 0.4 volts.
>
> With headphones and your ears, increase the computer output until you
> hear the sound of the digital tones start to get raspy, or harsh --
> that is distortion. Back the computer gain down slightly until the
> raspyiness goes away, then reduce it further until the tones SOUND
> half as loud to you. This works because we humans hear a change of
> 6-10 dB as being half as loud.
>
> Once you've got the computer as clean as it is going to get, simply
> follow the instructions in the K3 or KX3 manual to set levels in the
> radio.
>
> Another observation. A few years ago, I surveyed low cost USB sound
> cards sold for use in the home studio and DJ market, found several
> that looked promising, and bought two of them. Both made significant
> improvements in the DECODING of digital signals, and also cleaned up
> the computer's TX audio. These were NOT expensive units -- a little
> Numark unit ($35 at B&H Photo) worked just as well as a $75 Tascam.
> And, unlike the more expensive SignalLink, which has Pin One Problems
> that cause RFI, the Numark and the Tascam are free of these problems.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

W7GJ, Lance

Re: Setting TX Levels for Digital Modes

Hi Eric,

Also see what the software is looking for in a sound card. I know in WSJT, you
should enter in the sound card correction factors shown in the lower left corner of
the screen. Also, on WSJT, the software was written for a sampling rate of 11025
Hz. So for best results, you should select a sound card sampling rate of 11025, or
some multiple thereof (such as 44,100 Hz). GL and VY 73, Lance

On 6/27/2013 5:14 PM, EricJ wrote:

> I've always suspected the computer sound card was a limiting factor in receiving
> digital modes. I recently bought the recommended EMU0204 for use with LP-PAN. While
> waiting for the parts to bring out the K2 IF, I tried the EMU 0204 in place of the
> computer sound card for JT65-HF. There was about a 3-6 db improvement in received
> signals. I could decode that much deeper into the mud than I could before.
>
> I'm going to try your advice on the TX side now.
>
> Eric
> KE6US
>
>
> On 6/27/2013 7:01 AM, Jim Brown wrote:
>> On 6/27/2013 3:42 AM, Joel Black wrote:
>>> Splattering *usually* (I say usually because *always* is too definite) has to do
>>> with TX audio gain.
>>
>> Actually, distortion can be created almost ANYWHERE in the signal chain. With
>> digital modes, that starts with the COMPUTER. In general, the sound quality of
>> computer sound cards is mediocre at best. In a GOOD audio stage, distortion should
>> be low until the stage clips -- that is, until the signal approaches the DC supply
>> "rails" -- but in many computer sound cards, distortion rises with signal levels
>> of only half of clip level. Putting numbers to it, typical sound cards clip at
>> around 1 volt, but their distortion begins to rise at 0.5 volt or even lower. I
>> measured distortion at -40 dB with 0.5 volt out of my Thinkpads, and -30 dB at a
>> level just below clip. That difference produces sidebands that are almost 2
>> S-units stronger!
>>
>> It's pretty easy to set audio levels, but it's VERY important to do that right.
>> You can do it with a scope or a voltmeter on the output of your sound card, or you
>> can do it with your ears listening to headphones plugged into the sound card.
>> With the voltmeter, simply increase the sound card output until it no longer
>> produces more voltage, then reduce the computer output to a bit less than half
>> that voltage. So if max out is 1 volt, reduce it to about 0.4 volts.
>>
>> With headphones and your ears, increase the computer output until you hear the
>> sound of the digital tones start to get raspy, or harsh -- that is distortion.
>> Back the computer gain down slightly until the raspyiness goes away, then reduce
>> it further until the tones SOUND half as loud to you. This works because we humans
>> hear a change of 6-10 dB as being half as loud.
>>
>> Once you've got the computer as clean as it is going to get, simply follow the
>> instructions in the K3 or KX3 manual to set levels in the radio.
>>
>> Another observation. A few years ago, I surveyed low cost USB sound cards sold
>> for use in the home studio and DJ market, found several that looked promising, and
>> bought two of them. Both made significant improvements in the DECODING of digital
>> signals, and also cleaned up the computer's TX audio. These were NOT expensive
>> units -- a little Numark unit ($35 at B&H Photo) worked just as well as a $75
>> Tascam. And, unlike the more expensive SignalLink, which has Pin One Problems that
>> cause RFI, the Numark and the Tascam are free of these problems.
>>
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

--
Lance Collister, W7GJ
(ex WA3GPL, WA1JXN, WA1JXN/C6A, ZF2OC/ZF8, E51SIX, 3D2LR, 5W0GJ, E6M, TX5K)
P.O. Box 73
Frenchtown, MT 59834-0073
USA
TEL: (406) 626-5728
QTH: DN27ub
URL: http://www.bigskyspaces.com/w7gj
Windows Messenger: [hidden email]
Skype: lanceW7GJ
2m DXCC #11/6m DXCC #815

Interested in 6m EME? Ask me about subscribing to the Magic Band EME
email group, or just fill in the request box at the bottom of my web
page (above)!

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Setting TX Levels for Digital Modes

In reply to this post by EricJ-2

On 6/27/2013 10:14 AM, EricJ wrote:
> EMU0204 for use with LP-PAN.

While it should work for this purpose, this mfr is near the top of my
$&*# list because they removed drivers for legacy products (like the
EM0202) from their website.

73, Jim K9YC
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Bill Frantz

Re: Seeting digital RX levels - was: ARRL Field Day

In reply to this post by KE6BB

As far as I can tell, the sound card is the limiting factor in
receive IMD generation when using a K3, KX3 or K2. I try to run
my receive just below where the computer software indicates the
digital levels are distorting, and control that level with the
RF gain control. This procedure seems to keep all the radio
pieces within their linear range. I can see IMD being generated
on my waterfall when I have the RF gain too high, and it is all
in my receive chain.

Measuring IMD on a PSK signal is not as easy as it seems. Any
band noise may be interpreted as IMD, so the weaker the signal,
the worse the IMD reading. Ideally IMD measurements will be
taken with a strong signal and without any data -- so you just
have the PSK idle "railroad tracks". I just ignore IMD
measurements from stations I am only receiving weakly, assuming
they are also receiving me weakly. From strong stations, I get
good reports.

As for obnoxious, rude reports; they aren't limited to PSK. I
answered a CQ on 80M SSB running QRP and the ham at the other
end just said, "Get an amp!" A signal report and a comment that
I was too weak to continue the conversation would seem to be the
least one should expect. I'll just try to remember not to behave
rudely myself.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 6/26/13 at 11:45 PM, [hidden email] (Mark Petiford) wrote:

>I am relatively new to PSK (operate mainly CW), but after
>receiving my KX3, started to take an interest in it. After
>listening for some time, I became curious as to why some hams
>were giving out poor IMD reports and verbal reports of "You are
>splattering all over" when I wasn't always seeing the same
>thing. Some folks were just downright rude with their
>reports. I realize that different software packages may give
>different IMD measurements, but a few were grossly different.
>There seems to be a lot of information about getting things set
>right on the transmit side, but not so much on the receive side.

KE6BB

Re: Seeting digital RX levels - was: ARRL Field Day

Good tips, Bill. I appreciate your comments.

I think I will play around with two radios and do some measurements myself just to be sure I can believe in my own signal. There is a pretty good guide to measuring IMD on rsq-info.net. Once I make sure my TX side is clean, I can play with my RX side to see how if I can make a good signal look bad just for my own education. That will be fun and educational as well.

Tnx again.

Mark
KE6BB

________________________________
From: Bill Frantz <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Seeting digital RX levels - was: ARRL Field Day

As far as I can tell, the sound card is the limiting factor in
receive IMD generation when using a K3, KX3 or K2. I try to run
my receive just below where the computer software indicates the
digital levels are distorting, and control that level with the
RF gain control. This procedure seems to keep all the radio
pieces within their linear range. I can see IMD being generated
on my waterfall when I have the RF gain too high, and it is all
in my receive chain.

Measuring IMD on a PSK signal is not as easy as it seems. Any
band noise may be interpreted as IMD, so the weaker the signal,
the worse the IMD reading. Ideally IMD measurements will be
taken with a strong signal and without any data -- so you just
have the PSK idle "railroad tracks". I just ignore IMD
measurements from stations I am only receiving weakly, assuming
they are also receiving me weakly. From strong stations, I get
good reports.

As for obnoxious, rude reports; they aren't limited to PSK. I
answered a CQ on 80M SSB running QRP and the ham at the other
end just said, "Get an amp!" A signal report and a comment that
I was too weak to continue the conversation would seem to be the
least one should expect. I'll just try to remember not to behave
rudely myself.

Cheers - Bill, AE6JV

On 6/26/13 at 11:45 PM, [hidden email] (Mark Petiford) wrote:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz |Security, like correctness, is| Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 |not an add-on feature. - Attr-| 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com |ibuted to Andrew Tanenbaum | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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