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AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

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MaverickNH

AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

I've got my little 20m AX1 and 3 tuned counterpoise wires on a 4ft tripod
with wires extending to plastic chairs 3ft off the ground too. If I got that
whip up to 2m above ground with sloping wires, would I gain much?

Bret/N4SRN

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J Chester

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Bret,

I’ve just submitted a review of the AX1 to Practical Wireless magazine, which should appear be in the October issue, published end of September.

I found it worked well on the tripod. The key to getting the most out of it is to let the counterpoise wire fall to the ground about 3 ft or so from the radiator. As a very short base loaded antenna, I don’t think an extra foot or so of height will make a lot of difference. Your extra counterpoise wires is probably the best thing to do. More details in the article

73 de Joe MW1MWD

> On 4 Aug 2019, at 18:20, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've got my little 20m AX1 and 3 tuned counterpoise wires on a 4ft tripod
> with wires extending to plastic chairs 3ft off the ground too. If I got that
> whip up to 2m above ground with sloping wires, would I gain much?
>
> Bret/N4SRN
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
> ______________________________________________________________
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MaverickNH

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Thank you Joe! I shall look forward to reading your article soon.

Bret/N4SRN

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

In reply to this post by J Chester

Joe…

Will you have reprints available? I would like to see a copy of the article.

Thanks!

David Thompson, AG7TX
Jack of All Trades
Master of None
[hidden email]

> On Aug 5, 2019, at 02:21, J Chester <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Bret,
>
> I’ve just submitted a review of the AX1 to Practical Wireless magazine, which should appear be in the October issue, published end of September.
>
> I found it worked well on the tripod. The key to getting the most out of it is to let the counterpoise wire fall to the ground about 3 ft or so from the radiator. As a very short base loaded antenna, I don’t think an extra foot or so of height will make a lot of difference. Your extra counterpoise wires is probably the best thing to do. More details in the article
>
> 73 de Joe MW1MWD
>
>
>> On 4 Aug 2019, at 18:20, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've got my little 20m AX1 and 3 tuned counterpoise wires on a 4ft tripod
>> with wires extending to plastic chairs 3ft off the ground too. If I got that
>> whip up to 2m above ground with sloping wires, would I gain much?
>>
>> Bret/N4SRN
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>> ______________________________________________________________
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J Chester

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Yes, David,
Probably early September
Joe

> On 6 Aug 2019, at 00:03, David Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Joe…
>
> Will you have reprints available? I would like to see a copy of the article.
>
> Thanks!
>
> David Thompson, AG7TX
> Jack of All Trades
> Master of None
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 5, 2019, at 02:21, J Chester <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Bret,
>>
>> I’ve just submitted a review of the AX1 to Practical Wireless magazine, which should appear be in the October issue, published end of September.
>>
>> I found it worked well on the tripod. The key to getting the most out of it is to let the counterpoise wire fall to the ground about 3 ft or so from the radiator. As a very short base loaded antenna, I don’t think an extra foot or so of height will make a lot of difference. Your extra counterpoise wires is probably the best thing to do. More details in the article
>>
>> 73 de Joe MW1MWD
>>
>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2019, at 18:20, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got my little 20m AX1 and 3 tuned counterpoise wires on a 4ft tripod
>>> with wires extending to plastic chairs 3ft off the ground too. If I got that
>>> whip up to 2m above ground with sloping wires, would I gain much?
>>>
>>> Bret/N4SRN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>>> ______________________________________________________________
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>

Bill K9YEQ

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Me, Too!

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

https://wrj-tech.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of J Chester
Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 1:39 AM
To: David Thompson <[hidden email]>
Cc: [hidden email]; MaverickNH <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Yes, David,
Probably early September
Joe

> On 6 Aug 2019, at 00:03, David Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Joe…
>
> Will you have reprints available? I would like to see a copy of the article.
>
> Thanks!
>
> David Thompson, AG7TX
> Jack of All Trades
> Master of None
> [hidden email]
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 5, 2019, at 02:21, J Chester <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Bret,
>>
>> I’ve just submitted a review of the AX1 to Practical Wireless magazine, which should appear be in the October issue, published end of September.
>>
>> I found it worked well on the tripod. The key to getting the most out
>> of it is to let the counterpoise wire fall to the ground about 3 ft
>> or so from the radiator. As a very short base loaded antenna, I don’t
>> think an extra foot or so of height will make a lot of difference.
>> Your extra counterpoise wires is probably the best thing to do. More
>> details in the article
>>
>> 73 de Joe MW1MWD
>>
>>
>>> On 4 Aug 2019, at 18:20, MaverickNH <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got my little 20m AX1 and 3 tuned counterpoise wires on a 4ft
>>> tripod with wires extending to plastic chairs 3ft off the ground
>>> too. If I got that whip up to 2m above ground with sloping wires, would I gain much?
>>>
>>> Bret/N4SRN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>>> [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
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>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html Message delivered to
>> [hidden email]
>

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MaverickNH

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

In reply to this post by MaverickNH

It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
clear obstructions. Thoughts?

Bret/N4SRN

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Don Wilhelm

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Bret,

Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the
coax.

Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
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wayne burdick

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Administrator

I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.

Wayne

> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Bret,
>
> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the coax.
>
> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about the coax loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter which one it is (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires, Buddipole, etc.).

But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of thinking about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my KX1 almost three years ago.

phil, K7PEH

> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.
>
> Wayne
>
>
>
>
>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Bret,
>>
>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the coax.
>>
>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
>>
>> 73,
>> Don W3FPR
>>
>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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>
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David Gilbert

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.

Let's look at this realistically:

1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR.
Let's assume it's good to 15:1.

2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like
RG-8X.

3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is
not much more than 30 feet long.

4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending
most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.

30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those
frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss
due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.

http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a
remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply
bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 8/7/2019 3:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:

> Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about the coax loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter which one it is (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires, Buddipole, etc.).
>
> But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of thinking about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my KX1 almost three years ago.
>
> phil, K7PEH
>
>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.
>>
>> Wayne
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Bret,
>>>
>>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the coax.
>>>
>>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
>>>
>>> 73,
>>> Don W3FPR
>>>
>>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
>>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
>>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
>>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
>>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
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Mark Goldberg

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

You need to take into account the radio finals. When the SWR is high, My
KX3 cuts back because it gets too much reflected power. I expect the KX3,
and in fact any other radio or amplifier is similar. 15:1 is about half the
power coming back.

Regards,

Mark
W7MLG

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 5:14 PM David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
>
> Let's look at this realistically:
>
> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR.
> Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
>
> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like
> RG-8X.
>
> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is
> not much more than 30 feet long.
>
> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending
> most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
>
> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those
> frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss
> due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
>
> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
>
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a
> remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply
> bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 8/7/2019 3:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
> > Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about the coax
> loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter which one it is
> (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires, Buddipole, etc.).
> >
> > But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of thinking
> about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my KX1 almost three
> years ago.
> >
> > phil, K7PEH
> >
> >> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax
> were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from
> the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.
> >>
> >> Wayne
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Bret,
> >>>
> >>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in
> the coax.
> >>>
> >>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Don W3FPR
> >>>
> >>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
> >>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching
> directly to
> >>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from
> the
> >>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58
> to
> >>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
> >>> ______________________________________________________________
> >>> Elecraft mailing list
> >>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

Some points…

“…dragging along a remote tuner”

Surely you are kidding or you get the award for hyperbole of the day. The T1 fits in my shirt pocket! It is zero effort to bring — no “dragging” required.

And, I operate with 50 feet of coax because carrying multiple different lengths of coax on various trips where I operate portable does get into dragging. There have been some situations where 50 feet has not been enough such as in one national park where the convenient picnic table was quite a distance from the nearest convenient tree.

phil, K7PEH

> On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:13 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
>
> Let's look at this realistically:
>
> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR. Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
>
> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like RG-8X.
>
> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is not much more than 30 feet long.
>
> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
>
> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
>
> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
>
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 8/7/2019 3:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
>> Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about the coax loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter which one it is (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires, Buddipole, etc.).
>>
>> But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of thinking about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my KX1 almost three years ago.
>>
>> phil, K7PEH
>>
>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.
>>>
>>> Wayne
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Bret,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the coax.
>>>>
>>>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
>>>>
>>>> 73,
>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>
>>>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
>>>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
>>>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
>>>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
>>>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Wes Stewart-2

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

In reply to this post by Mark Goldberg

I haven't been following this thread closely but I think Dave makes good
points. As to the final fold-back, if I waded through this correctly, I
understand that the OP has the built-in tuner in his KX2. That solves that issue.

BTW, SWR = 15:1 is a return loss of about 1.1 dB, not 3 dB.

Wes N7WS

On 8/7/2019 5:29 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote:

> You need to take into account the radio finals. When the SWR is high, My
> KX3 cuts back because it gets too much reflected power. I expect the KX3,
> and in fact any other radio or amplifier is similar. 15:1 is about half the
> power coming back.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 5:14 PM David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
>>
>> Let's look at this realistically:
>>
>> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR.
>> Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
>>
>> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like
>> RG-8X.
>>
>> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is
>> not much more than 30 feet long.
>>
>> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending
>> most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
>>
>> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those
>> frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss
>> due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
>>
>> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
>>
>> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a
>> remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply
>> bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave AB7E
>>

Mark Goldberg

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Yeah, i didn't catch that he was going to use the internal tuner and just
forgo the external one at the other end of the coax.

In that case, I agree with Dave.

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 6:19 PM Wes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I haven't been following this thread closely but I think Dave makes good
> points. As to the final fold-back, if I waded through this correctly, I
> understand that the OP has the built-in tuner in his KX2. That solves
> that issue.
>
> BTW, SWR = 15:1 is a return loss of about 1.1 dB, not 3 dB.
>
> Wes N7WS
>
>
> On 8/7/2019 5:29 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote:
> > You need to take into account the radio finals. When the SWR is high, My
> > KX3 cuts back because it gets too much reflected power. I expect the KX3,
> > and in fact any other radio or amplifier is similar. 15:1 is about half
> the
> > power coming back.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Mark
> > W7MLG
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 5:14 PM David Gilbert <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
> >>
> >> Let's look at this realistically:
> >>
> >> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR.
> >> Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
> >>
> >> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like
> >> RG-8X.
> >>
> >> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is
> >> not much more than 30 feet long.
> >>
> >> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending
> >> most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
> >>
> >> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those
> >> frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss
> >> due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
> >>
> >> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
> >>
> >> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a
> >> remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply
> >> bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
> >>
> >> 73,
> >> Dave AB7E
> >>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

David Gilbert

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Doesn't much matter. You're still talking a 3 dB difference at most (50
feet vs 30 feet), and while I will be the first to argue the benefit of
every single dB for normal station operation (see
http://www.ab7e.com/weak_signal/mdd.html), I don't understand the angxt
over that 3 dB for portable operation. If that's actually a concern,
bring a better antenna.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 8/7/2019 5:34 PM, Phil Hystad wrote:

> Some points…
>
> “…dragging along a remote tuner”
>
> Surely you are kidding or you get the award for hyperbole of the day. The T1 fits in my shirt pocket! It is zero effort to bring — no “dragging” required.
>
> And, I operate with 50 feet of coax because carrying multiple different lengths of coax on various trips where I operate portable does get into dragging. There have been some situations where 50 feet has not been enough such as in one national park where the convenient picnic table was quite a distance from the nearest convenient tree.
>
> phil, K7PEH
>
>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:13 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
>>
>> Let's look at this realistically:
>>
>> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR. Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
>>
>> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like RG-8X.
>>
>> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is not much more than 30 feet long.
>>
>> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
>>
>> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
>>
>> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
>>
>> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/7/2019 3:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
>>> Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about the coax loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter which one it is (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires, Buddipole, etc.).
>>>
>>> But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of thinking about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my KX1 almost three years ago.
>>>
>>> phil, K7PEH
>>>
>>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bret,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the coax.
>>>>>
>>>>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
>>>>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
>>>>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
>>>>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
>>>>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

David Gilbert

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

In reply to this post by Mark Goldberg

Scroll down to the original post. We were talking about a KX2 with an
internal antenna tuner. Presumably the tuner works as it should to
present the proper load to the finals.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 8/7/2019 5:29 PM, Mark Goldberg wrote:

> You need to take into account the radio finals. When the SWR is high,
> My KX3 cuts back because it gets too much reflected power. I expect
> the KX3, and in fact any other radio or amplifier is similar. 15:1 is
> about half the power coming back.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mark
> W7MLG
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 7, 2019 at 5:14 PM David Gilbert <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
>
> Let's look at this realistically:
>
> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR.
> Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
>
> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable
> operation like
> RG-8X.
>
> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating
> portable is
> not much more than 30 feet long.
>
> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're
> spending
> most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
>
> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at
> those
> frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss
> due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
>
> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
>
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a
> remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply
> bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
>
> 73,
> Dave AB7E
>
>
>
> On 8/7/2019 3:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
> > Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about
> the coax loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter
> which one it is (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires,
> Buddipole, etc.).
> >
> > But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of
> thinking about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my
> KX1 almost three years ago.
> >
> > phil, K7PEH
> >
> >> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >>
> >> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if
> the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance
> well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can
> be extremely narrow-banded.
> >>
> >> Wayne
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Bret,
> >>>
> >>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential
> loss in the coax.
> >>>
> >>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
> >>>
> >>> 73,
> >>> Don W3FPR
> >>>
> >>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
> >>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try
> attaching directly to
> >>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU
> 25-40ft from the
> >>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run
> that RG58 to
> >>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
>

wayne burdick

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Administrator

In reply to this post by David Gilbert

The SWR could easily exceed 15:1, depending on the operating frequency (short loaded whips can be very narrow banded) and other factors that apply to portable operation such as radial configuration, ground characteristics, and antenna height.

Even 2 dB matters when you're using QRP.

Wayne
N6KR

David Gilbert

Re: AX1 Loaded Whip Antenna - Elevation and Counterpoise?

Then you'd be using the T1 to partially drop the SWR on the coax, but it
still wouldn't be anything close to 1:1 unless the T1 has a much broader
range than the tuner in the KX2. You'd still have some additional coax
loss due to SWR (but less loss, of course) and you'd still need the
tuner in the KX2 to get a match that wasn't a problem for the KX2.

I have to wonder how much loss there is in two tuners each trying to
match a really bad load, and it still seems to me that the better
approach if you're worried about every dB is to use a better antenna.
Using a really short whip like the AX1 with 50 feet of coax and two
tuners seems like a poor choice of tradeoffs.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 8/7/2019 6:39 PM, Wayne Burdick wrote:

> The SWR could easily exceed 15:1, depending on the operating frequency (short loaded whips can be very narrow banded) and other factors that apply to portable operation such as radial configuration, ground characteristics, and antenna height.
>
> Even 2 dB matters when you're using QRP.
>
> Wayne
> N6KR
>
>
>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 5:13 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Rather little of this discussion makes sense to me.
>>
>> Let's look at this realistically:
>>
>> 1. The antenna tuner in the KX2 is rated to be good up to 10:1 SWR. Let's assume it's good to 15:1.
>>
>> 2. Let's assume you're using a decent cable for portable operation like RG-8X.
>>
>> 3. Let's assume that the length of your coax when operating portable is not much more than 30 feet long.
>>
>> 4. Let's assume under the current solar flux conditions you're spending most of your time on 20m or lower in frequency.
>>
>> 30 feet of RG-8X has a loss of 0.4 db or less for that length at those frequencies, and per the charts in the link below the additional loss due to a 15:1 SWR is no more than 2 dB.
>>
>> http://www.astrosurf.com/luxorion/qsl-transmission-line2.htm
>>
>> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that justifies dragging along a remote tuner. You could recover a heck of a lot more dB by simply bringing a somewhat larger portable antenna.
>>
>> 73,
>> Dave AB7E
>>
>>
>>
>> On 8/7/2019 3:57 PM, Phil Hystad via Elecraft wrote:
>>> Sounds like an idea worth trying — I have always wondered about the coax loss between my KX3/KX2 and my portable antenna no matter which one it is (i.e. AX-1, Wire and counterpoise wires, Buddipole, etc.).
>>>
>>> But, really glad I did not sell the T1 on several occasions of thinking about selling it. I have not used my T1 since I sold my KX1 almost three years ago.
>>>
>>> phil, K7PEH
>>>
>>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Wayne Burdick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I think a T1 at the base would make a noticeable difference if the coax were more than a few feet long and the whip's resonance well removed from the target operating frequency. Short whips can be extremely narrow-banded.
>>>>
>>>> Wayne
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 7, 2019, at 7:40 AM, Don Wilhelm <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Bret,
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, the T1 mounted at the antenna will reduce the potential loss in the coax.
>>>>>
>>>>> Will you notice the difference? Maybe or maybe not.
>>>>>
>>>>> 73,
>>>>> Don W3FPR
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/7/2019 7:54 AM, MaverickNH wrote:
>>>>>> It comes to mind I have an Elecraft T1 ATU I might try attaching directly to
>>>>>> the base of the AX1 rather than relying on the KX2 ATU 25-40ft from the
>>>>>> antenna. I try to operate closer but sometimes have to run that RG58 to
>>>>>> clear obstructions. Thoughts?
>>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>