[AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?

[Pierre]

Not a record, but today I made my first DX/EU using the AX1. My setup
was a KX2, CW, 10W and the 13' counterpoise. SM3GSK at 5630 km returned
me a 559.
BTW ...As an alternative to a tripod, I fixed the antenna support to a
picnic table using 2 common tablecloth clamps.
Photo here: https://i.imgur.com/I4TPRNX.jpg

73, Pierre VE2PID

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[Elecraft mailing list]

Pierre, 
I love simple, brilliant solutions. Thanks for the idea.
Bob, KA2TQV





On Wednesday, May 22, 2019, 6:58 PM, VE2PID <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not a record, but today I made my first DX/EU using the AX1. My setup
was a KX2, CW, 10W and the 13' counterpoise. SM3GSK at 5630 km returned
me a 559.
BTW ...As an alternative to a tripod, I fixed the antenna support to a
picnic table using 2 common tablecloth clamps.
Photo here: https://i.imgur.com/I4TPRNX.jpg

73, Pierre VE2PID

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[hbjr]

Pierre....Not too shabby!

I made a "DX" contact with a fellow in Ontario from a site in NW Georgia in the US.  It may not be my farthest, but it was another country :-)

This was a couple of weeks ago with the KX3 on 20 meters SSB , 15 watts (external battery), AX1 attached to radio and 13' counterpoise.

I was perched atop a rock wall overlooking a lake on one side (facing Canada).

Hoping to do some hiking this weekend and a SOTA summit (or two).  Just bought the BNC to binding post adapter to try my hand at 40 meters.

I love the AX1 setup - can't hardly wait for the 40 meter version!!!!!

Hank
K4HYJ
K3S, P3, KX3

 
----- Original Message -----
From: VE2PID ([hidden email])
Date: 05/22/19 19:01
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?

Not a record, but today I made my first DX/EU using the AX1. My setup
was a KX2, CW, 10W and the 13' counterpoise. SM3GSK at 5630 km returned
me a 559.
BTW ...As an alternative to a tripod, I fixed the antenna support to a
picnic table using 2 common tablecloth clamps.
Photo here: https://i.imgur.com/I4TPRNX.jpg

73, Pierre VE2PID

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[Pierre]

... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on
a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45
including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise).
--
After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain
is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the
wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56
degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees
slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees

(Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg )

73, Pierre VE2PID

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[hbjr]

Good info!

I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I lay the counterpoise along the ground.  I get better signal reports from stations in the direction of the counterpoise.

I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30 degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction of the counterpoise.

I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts.

Hank
K4HYJ
 
----- Original Message -----
From: VE2PID ([hidden email])
Date: 05/28/19 11:30
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?

... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on
a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45
including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise).
--
After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain
is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the
wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56
degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees
slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees

(Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg )

73, Pierre VE2PID

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[Adam Goler]

I also anecdotally observed greater propagation with the counterpoise wire
hanging vertically this past weekend.

Intuitively, using a vertical counterpoise, as the "feedpoint" increases in
height away from the ground plane of the Earth, the takeoff angle should
decrease as the radiation pattern more and more resembles a free-space
vertically oriented dipole field (picture a field shaped like a donut).

>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:24:03 -0400
> From: Hank <[hidden email]>
> To: VE2PID <[hidden email]>,       [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
>
> Good info!
>
> I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I
> lay the counterpoise along the ground. ?I get better signal reports from
> stations in the direction of the counterpoise.
>
> I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the
> counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30
> degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction
> of the counterpoise.
>
> I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts.
>
> Hank
> K4HYJ
> ?
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: VE2PID ([hidden email])
> Date: 05/28/19 11:30
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
>
> ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on
> a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45
> including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise).
> --
> After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain
> is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the
> wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56
> degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees
> slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees
>
> (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg )
>
> 73, Pierre VE2PID
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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>

--
Adam Goler, PhD
Cell: [phone]



"Fear is the mind killer."
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[David Gilbert]

It's not the takeoff angle that makes the difference here.  The takeoff
angle of a half wave vertical dipole over real ground is not much
different than the takeoff angle of a quarter wave (or shorter) vertical
fed against a ground plane or counterpoise.

I'm pretty sure that what's really going on here is that as you make the
counterpoise wire more vertical the counterpoise is becoming the primary
radiating element  The AX1 essentially becomes a loaded "counterpoise"
for the vertical trailing wire.  I wouldn't be surprised if the
counterpoise wire does most of the radiating even if trailed across the
ground, although much of it would be lost to the lossy earth and the
rest pointed upward.  If we were able to model the AX1 with the
counterpoise we'd most likely see that the integral of current as a
function of length for the counterpoise wire exceeds that of the AX1,
and if the AX1 was vertical and the counterpoise horizontal most of the
radiated energy would be horizontally polarized.  Somebody could easily
prove (or disprove) this with a short sense antenna and a field strength
meter.

I suspect lots of people won't like this perspective, but there it is.

73,
Dave   AB7E




On 5/29/2019 1:52 PM, Adam Goler wrote:

> I also anecdotally observed greater propagation with the counterpoise wire
> hanging vertically this past weekend.
>
> Intuitively, using a vertical counterpoise, as the "feedpoint" increases in
> height away from the ground plane of the Earth, the takeoff angle should
> decrease as the radiation pattern more and more resembles a free-space
> vertically oriented dipole field (picture a field shaped like a donut).
>
>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:24:03 -0400
>> From: Hank <[hidden email]>
>> To: VE2PID <[hidden email]>,       [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>
>>
>> Good info!
>>
>> I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I
>> lay the counterpoise along the ground. ?I get better signal reports from
>> stations in the direction of the counterpoise.
>>
>> I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the
>> counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30
>> degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction
>> of the counterpoise.
>>
>> I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts.
>>
>> Hank
>> K4HYJ
>> ?
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: VE2PID ([hidden email])
>> Date: 05/28/19 11:30
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
>>
>> ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on
>> a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45
>> including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise).
>> --
>> After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain
>> is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the
>> wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56
>> degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees
>> slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees
>>
>> (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg )
>>
>> 73, Pierre VE2PID
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

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[wayne burdick]

David,

You're correct: with a high-Q loaded whip, especially on the low bands, position of the counterpoise relative to ground, structures and vegetation has a major impact. In some cases the counterpoise itself radiates more.

On top of that, the SWR can vary all over the map depending on counterpoise characteristics and terrain. This is why the AXE1 literature will specify that an ATU is required. Under all but ideal static conditions, SWR is unpredictable and the ATU will be required for transmit matching.

73,
Wayne
N6KR

> On May 29, 2019, at 4:56 PM, David Gilbert <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> It's not the takeoff angle that makes the difference here.  The takeoff angle of a half wave vertical dipole over real ground is not much different than the takeoff angle of a quarter wave (or shorter) vertical fed against a ground plane or counterpoise.
>
> I'm pretty sure that what's really going on here is that as you make the counterpoise wire more vertical the counterpoise is becoming the primary radiating element  The AX1 essentially becomes a loaded "counterpoise" for the vertical trailing wire.  I wouldn't be surprised if the counterpoise wire does most of the radiating even if trailed across the ground, although much of it would be lost to the lossy earth and the rest pointed upward.  If we were able to model the AX1 with the counterpoise we'd most likely see that the integral of current as a function of length for the counterpoise wire exceeds that of the AX1, and if the AX1 was vertical and the counterpoise horizontal most of the radiated energy would be horizontally polarized.  Somebody could easily prove (or disprove) this with a short sense antenna and a field strength meter.
>
> I suspect lots of people won't like this perspective, but there it is.
>
> 73,
> Dave   AB7E
>
>
>
>
> On 5/29/2019 1:52 PM, Adam Goler wrote:
>> I also anecdotally observed greater propagation with the counterpoise wire
>> hanging vertically this past weekend.
>>
>> Intuitively, using a vertical counterpoise, as the "feedpoint" increases in
>> height away from the ground plane of the Earth, the takeoff angle should
>> decrease as the radiation pattern more and more resembles a free-space
>> vertically oriented dipole field (picture a field shaped like a donut).
>>
>>
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Message: 1
>>> Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 13:24:03 -0400
>>> From: Hank <[hidden email]>
>>> To: VE2PID <[hidden email]>,       [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
>>> Message-ID: <[hidden email]>
>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>>>
>>>
>>> Good info!
>>>
>>> I have noticed from operating in the field that I make more contacts if I
>>> lay the counterpoise along the ground. ?I get better signal reports from
>>> stations in the direction of the counterpoise.
>>>
>>> I noticed from operating this weekend at an overlook that with the
>>> counterpoise over the side of the overlook going down hill at roughly 30
>>> degrees, my contacts were clustered farther away - again in the direction
>>> of the counterpoise.
>>>
>>> I was operating on 20 and 17 with the AX1, KX3, SSB at 15 watts.
>>>
>>> Hank
>>> K4HYJ
>>> ?
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: VE2PID ([hidden email])
>>> Date: 05/28/19 11:30
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] [AX1] Who has the AX1 antenna DX record?
>>>
>>> ... I used the AX1 as a test in WPX CW last weekend for only an hour on
>>> a picnic table. No problem ...in that time I got 13 QSOs from FN45
>>> including FL. (10 Watts KX2, 13' counterpoise).
>>> --
>>> After NEC simulations (0.005, 13 average ground) , we find how the gain
>>> is maximized in the direction of the counterpoise. On 20 meters, if the
>>> wire is horizontal at 4 feet height, the take-off angle is about 56
>>> degrees. But if the wire goes down from 4 feet to the ground (15 degrees
>>> slope), the F/B is less but the take off angle is lower at 35 degrees
>>>
>>> (Image at https://i.imgur.com/XKPjM8T.jpg )
>>>
>>> 73, Pierre VE2PID
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>
>>
>
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[Pierre]

... Obtained by NEC simulation for the AX1 installed at 4 feet above
average ground: If you place yourself in front of the antenna and in the
direction of the 13' horizontal counterpoise, the signal received will
only be vertically polarized for all takeoff angles.

But if you test it in a different direction, the polarization becomes
oblique. At 90 degrees from the direction of the counterpoise, the
components of the signal received will be mostly horizontally polarized
for a takeoff angle of 32 degrees or more and at lower angles, the
vertical component is higher.

So depending of the azimuth, the main 'contributor' to the polarization
will be the vertical or the counterpoise ...

73, Pierre VE2PID
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[wayne burdick]

Part of the charm of a short whip with a dragged counterpoise is that its directivity from moment to moment is as mysterious as propagation itself. As with good fiction, it's best to suspend disbelief. Just work 'em.

73,
Wayne
N6KR


> On May 29, 2019, at 6:06 PM, VE2PID <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> ... Obtained by NEC simulation for the AX1 installed at 4 feet above average ground: If you place yourself in front of the antenna and in the direction of the 13' horizontal counterpoise, the signal received will only be vertically polarized for all takeoff angles.
>
> But if you test it in a different direction, the polarization becomes oblique. At 90 degrees from the direction of the counterpoise, the components of the signal received will be mostly horizontally polarized for a takeoff angle of 32 degrees or more and at lower angles, the vertical component is higher.
>
> So depending of the azimuth, the main 'contributor' to the polarization will be the vertical or the counterpoise ...
>
> 73, Pierre VE2PID



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[David Gilbert]

That is certainly true.

In your simulation, between the vertical polarization and the horizontal
polarization in their respective maximum directions, which was stronger?

73,
Dave   AB7E



On 5/29/2019 6:06 PM, VE2PID wrote:

> ... Obtained by NEC simulation for the AX1 installed at 4 feet above
> average ground: If you place yourself in front of the antenna and in
> the direction of the 13' horizontal counterpoise, the signal received
> will only be vertically polarized for all takeoff angles.
>
> But if you test it in a different direction, the polarization becomes
> oblique. At 90 degrees from the direction of the counterpoise, the
> components of the signal received will be mostly horizontally
> polarized for a takeoff angle of 32 degrees or more and at lower
> angles, the vertical component is higher.
>
> So depending of the azimuth, the main 'contributor' to the
> polarization will be the vertical or the counterpoise ...
>
> 73, Pierre VE2PID

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[Pierre]

 > In your simulation, between the vertical polarization and the
horizontal polarization in their respective maximum directions, which
was stronger?

In the direction of the horizontal counterpoise, takeoff angle (max) is 
60 degrees and vert polarization only, gain of -2,48 dBi.
At right angle with the counterpoise, takeoff angle (max) is right up at
90 degrees with horizontal polarization only with a gain of -3,31 dBi
(if the word horizontal has a sense there ...)

73, Pierre VE2PID
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[K8TE]

While these anecdotes and even the modeling results are interesting, they
provide only a measure of insight into the questions about any antennas
performance.  Midway between them and using WSPRLite to compare two
antennas, in this case one with a counterpoise and one without, the Reverse
Beacon Network or WSPR Reporter would give far more insight than modeling
and contacts made.  

The RBN will give near real time results for locations where there are
receivers and where propagation exists.  If you used CW to call CQ, you
could download that day's data and view the RBN results of your CQ's.  There
are many more WSPR receiving sites, but that would require using a computer
with one's portable transceiver.  

If additional weight, time, and a small amount of battery capacity aren't
big issues, bring along a WSPRLite transmitter.  Spend as much time as you
are able and willing then analyze the data at the WSPRLite DXplorer web
site.  Bring a friend with his or her gear and another WSPRLite transmitter
and you'll get real data comparing the two configurations from on-the-air
tests that are meaningful.  You can find a copy of my presentation on the
subject at:
http://caravan-club.squarespace.com/s/2018-May-Mader-HF_Antennas_and_Propagation.pdf.
If you're at Ham-Com this coming weekend, I will give an updated version
there on Friday at 1:00 p.m. CDT.

73, Bill, K8TE

P.S. I have no pecuniary interest in WSPRLite other than having purchased a
couple plus accessories.

"Pierre....Not too shabby!

"I made a "DX" contact with a fellow in Ontario from a site in NW Georgia in
the US.  It may not be my farthest, but it was another country :-)

"This was a couple of weeks ago with the KX3 on 20 meters SSB , 15 watts
(external battery), AX1 attached to radio and 13' counterpoise.

"I was perched atop a rock wall overlooking a lake on one side (facing
Canada).

"Hoping to do some hiking this weekend and a SOTA summit (or two).  Just
bought the BNC to binding post adapter to try my hand at 40 meters.

"I love the AX1 setup - can't hardly wait for the 40 meter version!!!!!

"Hank
K4HYJ"





--
Sent from: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/
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[Pierre]

About RBN and AX1, here are some results I got recently (KX2, 13'
counterpoise, 10 Watts).
(In the last column I added the distance from my station):
...
VE6JY    VE2PID    14033    CW CQ [LoTW]    26 dB    18 wpm    2005z 24
May   3045 km
WE9V    VE2PID    14032.9    CW CQ [LoTW]    33 dB    18 wpm  2004z 24
May   1327 km
K9IMM    VE2PID    14033    CW CQ [LoTW]    25 dB    18 wpm    2003z 24
May   1452 km
KS4XQ    VE2PID    14033    CW CQ [LoTW]    19 dB    18 wpm    2002z 24
May   1489 km
K3PA    VE2PID    14033    CW CQ [LoTW]    20 dB    18 wpm    2002z 24
May   2014 km
KO7SS-2    VE2PID    14033    CW CQ [LoTW]    19 dB    18 wpm  2002z 24
May   2184 km
...
73, Pierre VE2PID
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