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Amazing!

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Gary D Krause

Amazing!

I thought I would share my story of what happened over the holidays. I live
in Cheyenne, Wyoming but, spent most of the week before the new year in Fort
Collins, CO. My girlfriend lives there. We have been dating for about seven
years now and she suggested that I bring one of my HF rigs and operate from
her house. I don't know why I had never thought of that before.

I took my K2 and a home brewed magnetic loop antenna. The mag loop is about
three feet in diameter and sits three feet off the ground. I set it up in her
back yard which is pretty much surrounded east and west by her house and the
neighbors house. I operated mostly 15 meters and some 17 meters at 5 watts
QRP.

One morning I fired up the K2, set it for 5 watts and started calling CQ. A
faint signal came back. It was a ham in Scotland!!! For those of you that
have beams, it's probably no big deal. We were both running 5w and he was
using a K1. I also worked two French stations that morning, all QRP with a
mag loop three feet off the ground.

I know that most of it has to do with propagation and the antenna. In this
case mostly propagation. At least that's what all the books say. Theory,
theory, theory. I say to heck with theory! I experienced something beyond
theory! It was MOJO!!! So stick that in your theory pipe and smoke it. ;-)

Why is it that when I'm working with my K2 or K3, most of the responding
stations are also using an Elecraft rig? MOJO! MOJO! MOJO! That's my theory.

Gary, N7HTS

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Mike Morrow-3

Re: Amazing!

Gary wrote:

> I thought I would share my story of what happened over the holidays.
> I took my K2 and a home brewed magnetic loop antenna. The mag loop is
> about three feet in diameter and sits three feet off the ground...I
> operated mostly 15 meters and some 17 meters at 5 watts QRP.

I'd suggest trying a simple dipole. A 15m dipole is only 22 feet end-to-end,
and it is very easily set up almost anywhere. I was living in an apartment in
the 1980 and 1990 periods of solar activity, so I'd set up such an antenna on
the balcony, with a 10m element arranged "bow-tie" from the common center
insulator.

> One morning I fired up the K2, set it for 5 watts and started calling CQ. A
> faint signal came back. It was a ham in Scotland!!! For those of you that
> have beams, it's probably no big deal. We were both running 5w and he was
> using a K1.

There's that K1 advantage...one of the few small QRP rigs that can perform on
15 meters (and higher, if you roll your own filter board).

> I know that most of it has to do with propagation and the antenna. In this
> case mostly propagation.

I'd say that you are correct. The antenna you describe would be outclassed
on transmit and receive by a resonant dipole by several S-units at least.
Set up both at a location and experience the gross difference you'll get as
you switch from one to the other! Guaranteed!

73,
Mike / KK5F

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Iain G4SGX

Amazing!

In reply to this post by Gary D Krause

Indeed,

I think if you compared the difference in db in sensitivity of a normal
rig compared to an elecraft, BOTH WAYS would equal quite a large beam
antenna in gain.

--
*Iain Haywood* G4SGX
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Ignacy

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by Gary D Krause

The mag loop performance can be surprisingly good if the surrounding objects are not attenuating. Excellent performance next to wooden objects, better and quieter than a low dipole. Also multi band operation without a tuner. But not good when surrounded by brick/concrete.

Ignacy

Gary D Krause

Re: Amazing!

Ignacy, I agree. That's why I like mag loops. I've built three of them and
I'm getting ready to build a forth. They are quieter than my home brewed 30'
multi-band vertical and I can pick out signals a little better when band
conditions aren't so great. Add the quiet K2 and signals pop out of nowhere.

Gary, N7HTS

On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:25:12 -0800 (PST)
Ignacy <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The mag loop performance can be surprisingly good if the surrounding objects
> are not attenuating. Excellent performance next to wooden objects, better
> and quieter than a low dipole. Also multi band operation without a tuner.
> But not good when surrounded by brick/concrete.
>
> Ignacy
>
> --
> View this message in context:
>http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Amazing-tp7151103p7152245.html
> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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stan levandowski

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by Gary D Krause

I have had some surprising results with a 40M mag loop I built from
hardline (real cheap) as well as an *all out* (that means big bucks
blown) 20 meter mag loop that I built from 1.5" copper pipe, a Jennings
vacuum variable, and a 1 rpm motor from Edmunds Scientific. My best DX
so far (confirmed) is UA1CE on 900 mw on 20M with my KX1 for about 6500
miles. The darn thing was sitting on my driveway about 3" off the
ground.

My personal findings: Superb receive antenna; lousy transmitting
antenna; highly directional; Incredibly quiet compared to my doublet;
extremely narrow bandwidth.

It's presently sitting in the garage. I haven't given up on it but I
much prefer my doublet and end fed half wave toys at this time.

But frankly, for someone - anyone - who has *severe* antenna
restrictions to contend with, the mag loop is most certainly worth
reading up on. It's not a toy!

73, Stan WB2LQF

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Gary D Krause wrote:

> Ignacy, I agree. That's why I like mag loops. I've built three of
> them and I'm getting ready to build a forth. They are quieter than my
> home brewed 30' multi-band vertical and I can pick out signals a
> little better when band conditions aren't so great. Add the quiet K2
> and signals pop out of nowhere.
>
> Gary, N7HTS
>
>
> On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:25:12 -0800 (PST)
> Ignacy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The mag loop performance can be surprisingly good if the surrounding
>> objects
>> are not attenuating. Excellent performance next to wooden objects,
>> better
>> and quieter than a low dipole. Also multi band operation without a
>> tuner.
>> But not good when surrounded by brick/concrete.
>> Ignacy
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Amazing-tp7151103p7152245.html
>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Gary D Krause

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by Mike Morrow-3

Hi Mike,

That may be true, however, I don't use dipoles because, I can't. This is
where a mag loop has an advantage. I dipole needs to be up high and have two
supports unless set up as a inverted v. I don't have trees or towers in my
yard. My girlfriend has trees but, if I were to put up a dipole, I'm sure
there would be a knock on the front door. I can work multiple bands with a
mag loop without a tuner and the neighbors can't see it because, it's below
the fence line. I can also rotate it.

When I lived in another location, I had a tower. I had a rotatable dipole on
it. It worked great. I ended up using mostly inverted vee antennas because,
the wind didn't bother them as much and they didn't need to be rotated. Plus,
I didn't like climbing a tower. ;-)

73,
Gary, N7HTS

> I'd suggest trying a simple dipole. A 15m dipole is only 22 feet
>end-to-end,
> and it is very easily set up almost anywhere. I was living in an apartment
>in
> the 1980 and 1990 periods of solar activity, so I'd set up such an antenna
>on
> the balcony, with a 10m element arranged "bow-tie" from the common center
> insulator.
>

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Tim Herrick

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by stan levandowski

Can someone direct me to construction guides besides the Ant Handbook. That
thing drives me nuts. hi hi I would like to build one for 40/80 mtr
receiving. Possibly others for 30 on up.

Thank you,

Tim Herrick, KQ8M
North Coast Contesters
[hidden email]

K3 Serial #5934

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of stan levandowski
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amazing!

I have had some surprising results with a 40M mag loop I built from
hardline (real cheap) as well as an *all out* (that means big bucks
blown) 20 meter mag loop that I built from 1.5" copper pipe, a Jennings
vacuum variable, and a 1 rpm motor from Edmunds Scientific. My best DX
so far (confirmed) is UA1CE on 900 mw on 20M with my KX1 for about 6500
miles. The darn thing was sitting on my driveway about 3" off the
ground.

My personal findings: Superb receive antenna; lousy transmitting
antenna; highly directional; Incredibly quiet compared to my doublet;
extremely narrow bandwidth.

It's presently sitting in the garage. I haven't given up on it but I
much prefer my doublet and end fed half wave toys at this time.

But frankly, for someone - anyone - who has *severe* antenna
restrictions to contend with, the mag loop is most certainly worth
reading up on. It's not a toy!

73, Stan WB2LQF

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Gary D Krause wrote:

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KXBill

Re: Amazing!

Tom....Go here:
http://www.aa5tb.com/loop.html
Carry on
Bill-w7kxb

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:25:58 -0500
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amazing!
>
> Can someone direct me to construction guides besides the Ant Handbook. That
> thing drives me nuts. hi hi I would like to build one for 40/80 mtr
> receiving. Possibly others for 30 on up.
>

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stan levandowski

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by Gary D Krause

Here's another page that's helpful.

http://www.standpipe.com/w2bri/

Press on! The darn things do work...

73, stan WB2LQF

On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 6:25 PM, KQ8M wrote:

> Can someone direct me to construction guides besides the Ant Handbook.
> That
> thing drives me nuts. hi hi I would like to build one for 40/80 mtr
> receiving. Possibly others for 30 on up.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Tim Herrick, KQ8M
> North Coast Contesters
> [hidden email]
>
> K3 Serial #5934
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of stan
> levandowski
> Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 6:19 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amazing!
>
> I have had some surprising results with a 40M mag loop I built from
> hardline (real cheap) as well as an *all out* (that means big bucks
> blown) 20 meter mag loop that I built from 1.5" copper pipe, a
> Jennings vacuum variable, and a 1 rpm motor from Edmunds Scientific.
> My best DX so far (confirmed) is UA1CE on 900 mw on 20M with my KX1
> for about 6500 miles. The darn thing was sitting on my driveway about
> 3" off the ground.
>
> My personal findings: Superb receive antenna; lousy transmitting
> antenna; highly directional; Incredibly quiet compared to my doublet;
> extremely narrow bandwidth.
>
> It's presently sitting in the garage. I haven't given up on it but I
> much prefer my doublet and end fed half wave toys at this time.
>
> But frankly, for someone - anyone - who has *severe* antenna
> restrictions to contend with, the mag loop is most certainly worth
> reading up on. It's not a toy!
>
> 73, Stan WB2LQF
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 4, 2012 at 5:52 PM, Gary D Krause wrote:
>
>> Ignacy, I agree. That's why I like mag loops. I've built three of
>> them and I'm getting ready to build a forth. They are quieter than
>> my home brewed 30' multi-band vertical and I can pick out signals a
>> little better when band conditions aren't so great. Add the quiet K2
>> and signals pop out of nowhere.
>>
>> Gary, N7HTS
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 4 Jan 2012 14:25:12 -0800 (PST)
>> Ignacy <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> The mag loop performance can be surprisingly good if the surrounding
>>> objects
>>> are not attenuating. Excellent performance next to wooden objects,
>>> better
>>> and quieter than a low dipole. Also multi band operation without a
>>> tuner.
>>> But not good when surrounded by brick/concrete.
>>> Ignacy
>>>
>>> --
>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/Amazing-tp7151103p7152245.html
>>> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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>
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Buddy Brannan

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by KXBill

There are lots of construction articles and sites. I'd love to try my hand at building one, sometime, maybe. But for the time being, I have one of these:
http://www.g4tph.com

Our (meaning the collective list's) friend Julian, G4ILO, has a nice article on building a portable loop here:
http://www.g4ilo.com/wonder-loop.html

And a real treausre trove here:
http://www.standpipe.com/ w2bri /

More around, I'm sure.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:54 PM, Bill Harris wrote:

>
> Tom....Go here:
> http://www.aa5tb.com/loop.html
> Carry on
> Bill-w7kxb
>
>> From: [hidden email]
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2012 18:25:58 -0500
>> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amazing!
>>
>> Can someone direct me to construction guides besides the Ant Handbook. That
>> thing drives me nuts. hi hi I would like to build one for 40/80 mtr
>> receiving. Possibly others for 30 on up.
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Tim Herrick

Re: Amazing!

Thank you all for the references. I will check them out.

Tim Herrick, KQ8M
North Coast Contesters
[hidden email]

K3 Serial #5934

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Buddy Brannan
Sent: Wednesday, January 04, 2012 7:19 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amazing!

There are lots of construction articles and sites. I'd love to try my hand
at building one, sometime, maybe. But for the time being, I have one of
these:
http://www.g4tph.com

Our (meaning the collective list's) friend Julian, G4ILO, has a nice article
on building a portable loop here:
http://www.g4ilo.com/wonder-loop.html

And a real treausre trove here:
http://www.standpipe.com/ w2bri /

More around, I'm sure.
--
Buddy Brannan, KB5ELV - Erie, PA
Phone: (814) 860-3194 or 888-75-BUDDY

On Jan 4, 2012, at 6:54 PM, Bill Harris wrote:

That

>> thing drives me nuts. hi hi I would like to build one for 40/80 mtr
>> receiving. Possibly others for 30 on up.
>>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Benson

Re: Amazing!

In reply to this post by Gary D Krause

I would be planning a proposal after that suggestion.

73,
NE4W

On 1/4/2012 11:47 AM, Gary D Krause wrote:
> We have been dating for about seven
> years now and she suggested that I bring one of my HF rigs and operate from
> her house. I don't know why I had never thought of that before.
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Carl W Clawson

Re: Amazing!

Not apropos to transmitting, but no discussion of receiving loop antennas is
complete without reference to N6RK's illuminating paper from Pacificon 2008:

http://www.n6rk.com/loopantennas/pacificon.pdf

Cheers,
Carl WS7L
K3 #486

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