Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

[Richard Thorne-4]

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500
watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in
gain,  make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but
how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160,
so maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or
not having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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[Bill K9YEQ]

Rich,  I am for Elecraft making an effective combiner to use 2 KPA500's.    I would then have flexibility to use either for one 1kw or 2 500watt radios.  A 1500 watt radio will be very heavy and I just sold my ~60# THP 2.5kfx as I was barely able to move it on my own and I am not getting any younger :-)  As you point out the slight gain to 1.5 KW isn't enough to warrant one that size to me.  When I had the THP I rarely pushed it past 900-100 watts anyway and had little trouble working EU on 80.  

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Thorne
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 11:32 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500 watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in gain,  make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160, so maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or not having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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[Bill K9YEQ]

While thinking a little longer, how about a KPA500X with a combiner added into it so one could add on over time to the 1KW power either with the original purchase of a plain 500 watt amp or the one ready for expansion?

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Bill Johnson
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 1:01 PM
To: Richard Thorne <[hidden email]>; Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

Rich,  I am for Elecraft making an effective combiner to use 2 KPA500's.    I would then have flexibility to use either for one 1kw or 2 500watt radios.  A 1500 watt radio will be very heavy and I just sold my ~60# THP 2.5kfx as I was barely able to move it on my own and I am not getting any younger :-)  As you point out the slight gain to 1.5 KW isn't enough to warrant one that size to me.  When I had the THP I rarely pushed it past 900-100 watts anyway and had little trouble working EU on 80.  

73,
Bill
K9YEQ

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Thorne
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 11:32 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector <[hidden email]>
Subject: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500 watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in gain,  make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160, so maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or not having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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[k6mrmagnet]

I'm running my two KPAs combined. Is there a difference? That's one of those questions that is tough to answer. I worked lots of people with 500W. I work lots of people with 1000+ W.  I don't chase DXCC but things seem to work better on 160.


I do feel louder. I think it was N6TR that said (probably mis-quoted here) "If you feel loud you are loud".


Ken K6MR


________________________________
From: Elecraft <[hidden email]> on behalf of Richard Thorne <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:31 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500
watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in
gain,  make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but
how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160,
so maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or
not having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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[k6mrmagnet]

I use W6PQLs combiner/splitter pair for the RF paths.  I use an Arduino to handle switching the band data from the two K3s, along with the keyline.

I switch the pair between the radios using the Tx Focus line from a u2R as control, which drives 4 TopTen A/B switches to switch the combo between the radios.

I also modified the KPAs to increase their gain a bit. NX1P has a good writeup about removing the pad in the amp and modifying the power sense circuit.  The KPAs will work without modification, but I ran out of drive on the higher bands. Now getting 1000+ out on all bands is easy.

So far no problems. I use my logging program and the MicroHam router program to insert some delay between activation and RF application. So far it's been pretty bullet proof.


Ken K6MR

________________________________
From: Bud Semon <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 2:32:07 PM
To: Ken K6MR
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

Hi Ken,

How do you combine the 2 amps?  I think that was KK9A's question also, so if you answered on the reflector, it would probably be appreciated.

Thanks and 73,

Bud  N7CW

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 2:26 PM, Ken K6MR <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
I'm running my two KPAs combined. Is there a difference? That's one of those questions that is tough to answer. I worked lots of people with 500W. I work lots of people with 1000+ W.  I don't chase DXCC but things seem to work better on 160.


I do feel louder. I think it was N6TR that said (probably mis-quoted here) "If you feel loud you are loud".


Ken K6MR


________________________________
From: Elecraft <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> on behalf of Richard Thorne <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:31 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500
watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in
gain,  make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but
how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160,
so maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or
not having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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[Charlie T, K3ICH]

In some cases a dB or so CAN make a difference.  Otherwise, why bother to
put a ½dB noise figure GaAsFET pre-amp at the antenna just to overcome 2dB
of feedline loss?

At the other extreme, if you are being received at 20dB over S-9 running a
kilowatt, you'll still be S-5 at 100 milliwatts.


73, Charlie k3ICH


-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron
D'Eau Claire
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 6:01 PM
To: 'Richard Thorne' <[hidden email]>; 'Elecraft Reflector'
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

2 dB might make a difference if you are only interested in having your call
sign dug out of the noise for a contest or DXCC contact.

Way back the early books from the 1930's that I read and the OT commercial
operators from that era I knew said that under typical conditions found on
the air, 6 dB was about the minimum change to hear a real difference in the
signal while exchanging messages or other extended information. Those
stations would not try a direct contact if the signals were "in the mud"
opting instead for trying again at different time or getting a relay.

In commercial operations we did not use the Ham RST system, but rather QSA 1
through 5. 1 was a barely detected signal in the mud. 5 was a loud signal
with perfect copy. I confess to doing about the same with Ham signals,
choosing between at most five levels by ear for my report without reference
to an S-meter.  

Personally, I've never gotten very excited about anything less than a 10 dB
improvement, but the only DX I work are those calling me - usually for a rag
chew - and I don't contest.

And, for me, Ken's observation is quite right. If I get the bug to drop my
Inverted L, rub some RF grease on the wire, neaten things up in general and
restring it, I do think I am getting out better and stations seem to come
back more quickly. Expectations are everything!

73, Ron AC7AC





-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken
K6MR
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 2:27 PM
To: Richard Thorne; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I'm running my two KPAs combined. Is there a difference? That's one of those
questions that is tough to answer. I worked lots of people with 500W. I work
lots of people with 1000+ W.  I don't chase DXCC but things seem to work
better on 160.


I do feel louder. I think it was N6TR that said (probably mis-quoted here)
"If you feel loud you are loud".


Ken K6MR


________________________________
From: Elecraft <[hidden email]> on behalf of Richard
Thorne <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:31 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500
watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in gain,
make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160, so
maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or not
having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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[K7TV]

Being able to clearly "hear the difference" might be a good criterion if you
are focused on the individual contact. If you are in a contest, making
hundreds of contacts, 1 dB makes a meaningful difference even if you cannot
hear the difference on any of the contacts.

-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron
D'Eau Claire
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 3:01 PM
To: 'Richard Thorne' <[hidden email]>; 'Elecraft Reflector'
<[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

2 dB might make a difference if you are only interested in having your call
sign dug out of the noise for a contest or DXCC contact.

Way back the early books from the 1930's that I read and the OT commercial
operators from that era I knew said that under typical conditions found on
the air, 6 dB was about the minimum change to hear a real difference in the
signal while exchanging messages or other extended information. Those
stations would not try a direct contact if the signals were "in the mud"
opting instead for trying again at different time or getting a relay.

In commercial operations we did not use the Ham RST system, but rather QSA 1
through 5. 1 was a barely detected signal in the mud. 5 was a loud signal
with perfect copy. I confess to doing about the same with Ham signals,
choosing between at most five levels by ear for my report without reference
to an S-meter.  

Personally, I've never gotten very excited about anything less than a 10 dB
improvement, but the only DX I work are those calling me - usually for a rag
chew - and I don't contest.

And, for me, Ken's observation is quite right. If I get the bug to drop my
Inverted L, rub some RF grease on the wire, neaten things up in general and
restring it, I do think I am getting out better and stations seem to come
back more quickly. Expectations are everything!

73, Ron AC7AC




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[K9MA]

While a couple dB may be hard to detect in a single QSO, averaged over
many QSO's I think it makes a difference.  In the course of, say a
contest weekend, that small difference means that, on the average, you
will get through just a little more often and quickly, and you'll get a
few more replies to your CQ's.  It adds up, even if it's hard to measure.

73,

Scott  K9MA


--
Scott  K9MA

[hidden email]

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[Bill K9YEQ]

Ron, from my Signal Corps training, we operated under the fact that 10db improvement was needed to experience a doubling of perceived sound.  Since our signals are rf radiated sound, the same would apply.

73,
Bill
K9YEQ



-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 5:01 PM
To: 'Richard Thorne' <[hidden email]>; 'Elecraft Reflector' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

2 dB might make a difference if you are only interested in having your call sign dug out of the noise for a contest or DXCC contact.

Way back the early books from the 1930's that I read and the OT commercial operators from that era I knew said that under typical conditions found on the air, 6 dB was about the minimum change to hear a real difference in the signal while exchanging messages or other extended information. Those stations would not try a direct contact if the signals were "in the mud"
opting instead for trying again at different time or getting a relay.

In commercial operations we did not use the Ham RST system, but rather QSA 1 through 5. 1 was a barely detected signal in the mud. 5 was a loud signal with perfect copy. I confess to doing about the same with Ham signals, choosing between at most five levels by ear for my report without reference to an S-meter.  

Personally, I've never gotten very excited about anything less than a 10 dB improvement, but the only DX I work are those calling me - usually for a rag chew - and I don't contest.

And, for me, Ken's observation is quite right. If I get the bug to drop my Inverted L, rub some RF grease on the wire, neaten things up in general and restring it, I do think I am getting out better and stations seem to come back more quickly. Expectations are everything!

73, Ron AC7AC





-----Original Message-----
From: Elecraft [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ken K6MR
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 2:27 PM
To: Richard Thorne; Elecraft Reflector
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I'm running my two KPAs combined. Is there a difference? That's one of those questions that is tough to answer. I worked lots of people with 500W. I work lots of people with 1000+ W.  I don't chase DXCC but things seem to work better on 160.


I do feel louder. I think it was N6TR that said (probably mis-quoted here) "If you feel loud you are loud".


Ken K6MR


________________________________
From: Elecraft <[hidden email]> on behalf of Richard Thorne <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 30, 2017 9:31 AM
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Amp Thoughts: 1000 watts or 1500 watts?

I have a pair of KPA-500's for an SO2R setup.  Seamless.

I've been running the numbers on the advantage of going to 1000 or 1500 watts.

500 watts to 1000 watts - 3.01 db gain
500 watts to 1500 watts - 4.77 db gain

Will the increase from 1000 to 1500 watts or a 1.76 db increase in gain, make a difference? I'm sure it would in some circumstances, but how often?

I'm just starting on my quest to increase my dxcc totals on 80 and 160, so maybe that 1.76 db would be the difference between a having a qso or not having a qso.

What are the thoughts of the serious low band guys?

Thanks

Rich - N5ZC
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