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Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

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Nick - VE3EY

Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

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Bill-3

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

Downloaded where?

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Nick - VE3EY

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

My email for some reason did not make it to the mailing list.

Here is another try for the download link. (also on my QRZ.com page)

http://dx.fireroute.com/RF_amplifier_cost_calculator.xlsx

73, Nick

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Downloaded where?
>
>
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Phil Wheeler-2

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was
so cost effective. Sure is a royal PITA to use,
though. I'll give it away to someone local who
will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping
the beast.

73, Phil W7OX

On 4/25/15 7:04 PM, Nick - VE3EY wrote:

> My email for some reason did not make it to the mailing list.
>
> Here is another try for the download link. (also on my QRZ.com page)
>
> http://dx.fireroute.com/RF_amplifier_cost_calculator.xlsx
>
>
> 73, Nick
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Downloaded where?
>>
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
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David Olean

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

It is possible to make your own amplifier too. I have built a bunch. For
grins, I plugged in my 10 meter amplifier figures to the VE3EY database. The
dollars per watt worked out to $0.053 and the cost per 1 dB of improvenment
worked out to $20.05. I was especially surprised at the 5 cents per watt
figure. It has all sorts of protection circuits and is bullet proof.
Includes the HV supply too! Manual tune though. I also have a KPA-500 and
really love it. I use it for almost all my casual operating. It is ready to
go instantly, while the homebrew one requires a long warmup.

Dave K1WHS

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Wheeler" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2015 2:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective. Sure
> is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone local who
> will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.
>
> 73, Phil W7OX
>
> On 4/25/15 7:04 PM, Nick - VE3EY wrote:
>> My email for some reason did not make it to the mailing list.
>>
>> Here is another try for the download link. (also on my QRZ.com page)
>>
>> http://dx.fireroute.com/RF_amplifier_cost_calculator.xlsx
>>
>>
>> 73, Nick
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 3:14 PM, Bill <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Downloaded where?
>>>
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
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>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
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Bill-3

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

Very informative piece of work and research. It does show there are more
cost effective answers to amplifiers than the KPA500 - but, I will forgo
the cost factor to have the total ease of operation the KPA500 and
KAT500 provide me.

To QSY from 3935 to 7272 all I do is click the band change, twist the
VFO, then PTT. Sure beats the Palstar tuner (excellent tuner) and the
AL80A (fair amplifier that requires continuing maintenance).

Hang the dollars (within reason) and go for the ease of operation.

Just for grins, here is an article I wrote about twenty years ago
regarding amplifiers (a little dated perhaps?)

http://archive.org/stream/73-magazine-1996-07/07_July_1996#page/n32/mode/1up

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Kevin Stover

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Nick - VE3EY

Very nice work.

Interesting results in that thje least expensive (811H) and most expensive (AL-1500) Ameritron amps are in the top five if you sort by USD/watt. I was surprised by how well the OM Power terode amps did. I expected the Alpha 9500 to score lower and it tied with the Acom 2000.

All of the solid state amps are at the bottom of the list if the sort parameters are USD/watt and solid state. The ALS-1306 is the best of the SS amps from that point of view.

On Sat, 25 Apr 2015 22:04:27 -0400
Nick - VE3EY <[hidden email]> wrote:

> My email for some reason did not make it to the mailing list.
>
> Here is another try for the download link. (also on my QRZ.com page)
>
> http://dx.fireroute.com/RF_amplifier_cost_calculator.xlsx
>
>
> 73, Nick

--
R. Kevin Stover
AC0H
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Phil Wheeler-2

On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective.
> Sure is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone
> local who will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.

I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we here
in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those amps with
higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has included
his used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.

k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png

There are many features and properties of power amps that go far beyond
pure dB per dollar. some examples:

The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it
doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp for
CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied bandwidth
tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM 1010. And the
1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to change it. The
KPA500 can be switched by removing, rotating, and reinserting the fuse
block built into the power plug.

The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna
tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some of
those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are much
better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality vacuum
relays with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas. The
Ameritron amps I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so their
switching is much slower.

My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and the
Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for rated
power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual everything.

73, Jim K9YC
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Merv Schweigert

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

Way to go Jim,
I was thinking the same but you will find that the dollar per watt etc
is actually
way off, the guys who buy the "big" amps are running them close to their
limits, The larger amps are even at 5KW out and more, so you have to
figure that power per dollar when looking at an investment,
Those type amps are not built or bought for "headroom" but to gain 3DB
on the
guy running a 1500 watt amp..

Im sure you can find quite a number of them in every state, they are
prolific out
here. I know my antenna is working when I can compete with some of
the stations out here. because I am 3db or more lower running 1500 output.

73 Merv K9FD/KH6

> On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective.
>> Sure is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone
>> local who will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.
>
> I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we
> here in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those
> amps with higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has
> included his used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.
>
> k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png
>
> There are many features and properties of power amps that go far
> beyond pure dB per dollar. some examples:
>
> The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it
> doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp
> for CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied
> bandwidth tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM
> 1010. And the 1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to
> change it. The KPA500 can be switched by removing, rotating, and
> reinserting the fuse block built into the power plug.
>
> The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna
> tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some
> of those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are
> much better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality
> vacuum relays with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas.
> The Ameritron amps I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so
> their switching is much slower.
>
> My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and
> the Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for
> rated power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual
> everything.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

To really do this right, you would need to add factors for things like IMD, QSK, fan noise, duty cycle, ease of tuning, etc. Cost per watt is only one factor. Of course everyone would have their own personal concerns, so you could add a place in the spreadsheet where the user could weight the various factors appropriately. A CW operator doesn't care about IMD, a digital guy is very interested in duty cycle, a DXer wants instant turn-on and tuneup, etc.

Vic 4X6GP/K2VCO

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 12:34 AM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective. Sure is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone local who will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.
>
> I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we here in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those amps with higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has included his used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.
>
> k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png
>
> There are many features and properties of power amps that go far beyond pure dB per dollar. some examples:
>
> The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp for CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied bandwidth tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM 1010. And the 1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to change it. The KPA500 can be switched by removing, rotating, and reinserting the fuse block built into the power plug.
>
> The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some of those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are much better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality vacuum relays with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas. The Ameritron amps I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so their switching is much slower.
>
> My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and the Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for rated power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual everything.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

On Sun,4/26/2015 10:05 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> A CW operator doesn't care about IMD,

WRONG! CW is a carrier amplitude-modulated by a series of square waves,
and the harmonics of which that square wave consists excite IMD in the
gain stages! The IMD from those harmonics is what we hear as clicks. The
faster the rise time, the greater the order and magnitude of the
harmonics produced, so the louder and wider are the clicks. An important
reason the K3 is MUCH cleaner than nearly all other rigs is that they
have carefully shaped the keying waveform to minimize the amplitude and
order of those harmonics. AND - they refuse to give us menu settings to
screw it up, a mistake that virtually every other manufacturer makes.

73, Jim K9YC
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Vic Rosenthal

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.

Vic

> On Apr 27, 2015, at 8:18 AM, Jim Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On Sun,4/26/2015 10:05 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
>> A CW operator doesn't care about IMD,
>
> WRONG! CW is a carrier amplitude-modulated by a series of square waves, and the harmonics of which that square wave consists excite IMD in the gain stages! The IMD from those harmonics is what we hear as clicks. The faster the rise time, the greater the order and magnitude of the harmonics produced, so the louder and wider are the clicks. An important reason the K3 is MUCH cleaner than nearly all other rigs is that they have carefully shaped the keying waveform to minimize the amplitude and order of those harmonics. AND - they refuse to give us menu settings to screw it up, a mistake that virtually every other manufacturer makes.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

On Sun,4/26/2015 10:33 PM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.

Nope. It's a bunch of square waves, and any square wave is composed of
an infinite series of harmonics. Those frequencies are present in the
drive signal (from small signal circuits to power amp circuits, whether
in the rig or in a power amp), and if either is non-linear, distortion
is produced.

It's important to realize that ANY non-linear element produces both IMD
and harmonics -- indeed, in-band IMD is the result of the mixing of
harmonics in a non-linear circuit. Quantities like IMD and THD are
simply different ways of quantifying the distortion produced by
non-linear devices!

73, Jim K9YC
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Don Wilhelm-4

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Vic Rosenthal

Vic,

Yes that will create harmonics, but at audio frequencies related to the
keying speed, not harmonics of the RF frequency.
It is those extra audio frequencies which generate keyclicks - you may
call it IMD or not, but it is undesirable.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 4/27/2015 1:33 AM, Vic Rosenthal wrote:
> Sharpening the envelope is harmonic distortion, not IMD. I think.
>
>

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Bill Frantz

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

I was a bit shocked to hear in the new product announcement
session at the Vasalia DX convention the comment by the
presenter for Expert Amps that of course everyone runs more than
legal power. As one who happily maxes out at 100 watts, I hadn't
realized that the Kalifornia Kilowatt was still alive and well.
One can only hope that those running QRO++ are sending clean signals.

I console myself that 5KW is only about one S unit over maximum
legal power.

73 Bill AE6JV

On 4/26/15 at 2:34 PM, [hidden email] (Jim Brown) wrote:

>I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since
>we here in the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power
>for those amps with higher power ratings to that value.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Frantz | I don't have high-speed | Periwinkle
(408)356-8506 | internet. I have DSL. | 16345
Englewood Ave
www.pwpconsult.com | | Los Gatos,
CA 95032

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Bill-3

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

The saving grace is that the super powerful station can hear no better
than anyone else. In other words, if you can't hear them - you cannot
work them!

To me it is enjoyable to see skill and quality win out over dollars
(quantity).

Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Jim Brown-10

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Bill Frantz

On Mon,4/27/2015 7:53 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
> I was a bit shocked to hear in the new product announcement session at
> the Vasalia DX convention the comment by the presenter for Expert Amps
> that of course everyone runs more than legal power.

I would like to know that lid's callsign. BTW -- there were two
companies there representing Expert Amps.

73, Jim K9YC
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k6dgw

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Bill-3

Alas, that doesn't stop some from calling anyway, regardless of the
power they're running.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

On 4/27/2015 8:12 AM, Bill wrote:
> The saving grace is that the super powerful station can hear no better
> than anyone else. In other words, if you can't hear them - you cannot
> work them!

> Bill W2BLC K-Line

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Igor Sokolov-2

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

IMHO this is apple/orange comparison.

1) All of the Expert amps are solid state AND automatic and this comparison
does not account for that.
2) USD/WATT is more informative then USD/dB_over_100W. USD/dB_of_gain would
be...
3) If weight of the amp is put into the table then Expert will be clear
winner on all accounts.
4) Features like built in SO2R and ability to operate on any mains voltage
from 100V to 260V are not found in any other amp but sure add a lot value
for money.

73, Igor UA9CDC

P.S. I have used my K3 with Expert 1K-FA for 6 years and now use my KX3 and
K3 with Expert 1.3K-FA (5W in 1kW out). Will anybody try to persuade me that
there is better value for money then Expert.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Brown" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 2:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

> On Sat,4/25/2015 7:35 PM, Phil Wheeler wrote:
>> Good job, Nick. I didn't realize my AL-811H was so cost effective. Sure
>> is a royal PITA to use, though. I'll give it away to someone local who
>> will use it -- no way I will deal with shipping the beast.
>
> I modified the spreadsheet a bit and re-sorted it. First, since we here in
> the US are permitted only 1,500W, I set max power for those amps with
> higher power ratings to that value. Second, just as Nick has included his
> used Alpha 99, I added my used Ten Tec Titan 425s.
>
> k9yc.com/PwrAmpdB.png
>
> There are many features and properties of power amps that go far beyond
> pure dB per dollar. some examples:
>
> The ACOM 1010 is a reasonably compact competitor to the KPA500, but it
> doesn't cover 6M. I bought one used from K6SRZ (to have another amp for
> CQP), who bought a KPA500 just to get 6M. Also, my occupied bandwidth
> tests show that the KPA500 is a bit cleaner than that ACOM 1010. And the
> 1010 is a single-voltage amp. It must be rewired to change it. The KPA500
> can be switched by removing, rotating, and reinserting the fuse block
> built into the power plug.
>
> The ACOM 1000 does cover 6M. Both it and the 1010 have manual antenna
> tuners built in. Some of these amplifiers have built-in tuners, some of
> those tuners are automatic or have memories. Some of these amps are much
> better built than others. My Ten Tec Titans use high quality vacuum relays
> with logic to prevent hot-switching, as do the Alphas. The Ameritron amps
> I've seen use much cheaper open-frame relays, so their switching is much
> slower.
>
> My Titans are quite clean -- P3 measurements of both the KPA500 and the
> Titan look exactly like the K3 at the drive level required for rated
> power. But the Titans, like the lower cost ACOMs, are "manual everything.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
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Igor Sokolov-2

Re: Amp power per $$ spreadsheet download

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

> On Mon,4/27/2015 7:53 AM, Bill Frantz wrote:
>> I was a bit shocked to hear in the new product announcement session at
>> the Vasalia DX convention the comment by the presenter for Expert Amps
>> that of course everyone runs more than legal power.

Sure that statement was an exaggeration. It is not everyone. It is only
every second one. :)

73, Igor UA9CDC

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