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Antenna tuners

Antenna tuners

I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the

Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.

73 Ken K5DNL

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Kurt Pawlikowski

Re: Antenna tuners

Ken: In some respects, a "matching device" at the base of the antenna
_/is/_ a tuner! {'-) It accomplishes the same function... {'-) k WB9FMC

On 7/17/2020 6:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:

> Antenna tuners
>
> I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the
>
> Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.
>
> 73 Ken K5DNL
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Antenna tuners

Kurt,
We are not tuning the antenna , we are matching the antenna to the coax at the base of the antenna.
73 Ken K5DNL

On Friday, July 17, 2020, 7:10:32 PM CDT, Kurt Pawlikowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken: In some respects, a "matching device" at the base of the antenna is a tuner! {'-) It accomplishes the same function... {'-) k WB9FMC

On 7/17/2020 6:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:

Antenna tuners

I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the

Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.

73 Ken K5DNL

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NK7Z

Re: Antenna tuners

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Tuners... Tuners... We don't need no stinking tuners... Real men use
antennas that don't need stinking tuners...

Sorry I had too...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 7/17/20 4:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:

>
> Antenna tuners
>
> I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the
>
> Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.
>
> 73 Ken K5DNL
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Antenna tuners

Dave - RRR - 73 Ken K5DNL

On Friday, July 17, 2020, 7:24:10 PM CDT, Dave Cole <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tuners... Tuners... We don't need no stinking tuners... Real men use
antennas that don't need stinking tuners...

Sorry I had too...

73, and thanks,
Dave (NK7Z)
https://www.nk7z.net
ARRL Volunteer Examiner
ARRL Technical Specialist
ARRL Asst. Director, NW Division, Technical Resources

On 7/17/20 4:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Antenna tuners

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On Friday, July 17, 2020, 7:10:32 PM CDT, Kurt Pawlikowski <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ken: In some respects, a "matching device" at the base of the antenna is a tuner! {'-) It accomplishes the same function... {'-) k
> WB9FMC

On Friday, July 17, 2020, 08:21:54 PM EDT, Ken Roberson via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Kurt,
> We are not tuning the antenna , we are matching the antenna to the coax at the base of the antenna.
> 73 Ken K5DNL

Kurt's correct. A low-loss (non-resistive) matching network connected directly at the feedpoint of an antenna will modify its resonant frequency.

A matching network connected to the feedpoint of an antenna through 1 inch (25.4mm) of transmission line will also modify the resonant frequency of the antenna.

A matching network connected through 1 meter of transmission line will also modify the resonant frequency of the antenna.

A matching network connected through 10 meters of transmission line will also modify the resonant frequency of the antenna.

And so on, and so forth... all the way back to the shack! ;-)

Why? Because transmission lines obey reciprocity. As such they cannot (aside from the effects of losses) separate what's on their source end from what's on their load end. What you do to one end directly affects the other, and vice versa.

Show me a transmission line that disobeys this property, and I'll show you a line that is either opened or shorted.

So, yes, a non-resistive matching network in the shack will bring your antenna SYSTEM (antenna + transmission line) into resonance at your operating frequency. In the process, the resonant frequency of the antenna is modified, as well.

73 de John, KD2BD

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k6dgw

Re: Antenna tuners

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

No antenna has, at any time, anywhere in any of our lifetimes, been
"tuned" by an "antenna tuner." So called antenna tuners are 2-port
impedance matching networks ... all of them ... and their job is to
match the impedance on one port to another impedance on the second port,
period. Nothing gets "tuned." They come in a variety of flavors ... a
pair of push-pull 807's with a resonant tank and a link feed to the
antenna on open wire line is one. Everything that happens on the feed
line [regardless of it's construction] is the sole result of the complex
impedance at the antenna feed point and the characteristic impedance of
the feedline. No magic.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
"Captain Obvious"
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 7/17/2020 5:14 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:

> Kurt,
> We are not tuning the antenna , we are matching the antenna to the coax at the base of the antenna.
> 73 Ken K5DNL
>
> On Friday, July 17, 2020, 7:10:32 PM CDT, Kurt Pawlikowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Ken: In some respects, a "matching device" at the base of the antenna is a tuner! {'-) It accomplishes the same function... {'-) k WB9FMC
>
> On 7/17/2020 6:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:
>
> Antenna tuners
>
> I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the
>
> Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.
>
> 73 Ken K5DNL
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Antenna tuners

On Friday, July 17, 2020, 10:03:24 PM EDT, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> No antenna has, at any time, anywhere in any of our lifetimes, been
> "tuned" by an "antenna tuner."

Unless the "tuner" is simply a broadband transformer, I might agree.

But if the "tuner" is an LC network, like an adjustable L network, T network, Pi network, or a linked-coupled network, then I strongly disagree.

A tuner is a 2-port network. A transmission line is also a 2-port network. Both networks obey reciprocity, meaning that what you do to one port of the network will have a direct influence on the opposite end.

That being said, if an antenna exhibits a complex impedance at our frequency of interest, and that behavior can be corrected (brought to resonance) by the application of a particular value of reactance at the antenna's feedpoint, then that application of reactance can, for reasons of convenience, be made at the "shack end" of the transmission line. As such, the "tuner" in the shack is really "tuning" the antenna!

There's no "magic" involved here -- just a simple understanding that things that are connected together actually behave like they're connected together. A transmission line doesn't isolate the shack from the antenna: It couples them together with the highest degree of efficiency we can muster/afford. Therefore, what happens at one end of a transmission line DIRECTLY affects the other, and vice versa.

And so, properly applying an adjustable LC impedance matching network in the shack CAN (and often does) modify the resonant frequency of an antenna.

73 de John, KD2BD

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David Gilbert-2

Re: Antenna tuners

In reply to this post by k6dgw

That's not in the least true, but those among us fixated on semantics
continue to push that tired old myth.

You could, for example, have an antenna with a feedpoint impedance of 50
- j40 ohms, and if you insert 40 ohms worth of inductance in series with
the feedline at the feedpoint you will TUNE that antenna to resonance
exactly the same as if you put an appropriate amount of reactance in the
antenna itself or adjust its length ... all of which do exactly the same
thing. The antenna and it's feedline are inseparable as far as the
overall network is concerned. One is not independent of the other ...
ever.

Furthermore, the adjustment (i.e., "tuning") can be done at the shack
end of the feedline with EXACTLY the same effect except for the
transmission line transformation by the feedline, and of course its
associated loss, since whatever is done at the shack end is reflected
back to the antenna end.

Yours is really a very tedious distinction that has no basis in actual
physics or network theory.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 7/17/2020 6:59 PM, Fred Jensen wrote:

> No antenna has, at any time, anywhere in any of our lifetimes, been
> "tuned" by an "antenna tuner." So called antenna tuners are 2-port
> impedance matching networks ... all of them ... and their job is to
> match the impedance on one port to another impedance on the second
> port, period. Nothing gets "tuned." They come in a variety of
> flavors ... a pair of push-pull 807's with a resonant tank and a link
> feed to the antenna on open wire line is one. Everything that happens
> on the feed line [regardless of it's construction] is the sole result
> of the complex impedance at the antenna feed point and the
> characteristic impedance of the feedline. No magic.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> "Captain Obvious"
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County

Rick Bates, NK7I

Re: Antenna tuners

In reply to this post by k6dgw

Save one; the screwdriver antenna on my truck is tuned (coil adjusted) by the TurboTuner attached to my radio until a match is found.

And an argument could be made that a SteppIR controller performs a similar function.

The rest are matching circuits to compensate for the disparity of input to output. 😜

73,
Rick NK7I

Email spiel Czech corruptions happen

> On Jul 17, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> No antenna has, at any time, anywhere in any of our lifetimes, been "tuned" by an "antenna tuner." So called antenna tuners are 2-port impedance matching networks ... all of them ... and their job is to match the impedance on one port to another impedance on the second port, period. Nothing gets "tuned." They come in a variety of flavors ... a pair of push-pull 807's with a resonant tank and a link feed to the antenna on open wire line is one. Everything that happens on the feed line [regardless of it's construction] is the sole result of the complex impedance at the antenna feed point and the characteristic impedance of the feedline. No magic.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> "Captain Obvious"
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 7/17/2020 5:14 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:
>> Kurt,
>> We are not tuning the antenna , we are matching the antenna to the coax at the base of the antenna.
>> 73 Ken K5DNL
>>
>> On Friday, July 17, 2020, 7:10:32 PM CDT, Kurt Pawlikowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ken: In some respects, a "matching device" at the base of the antenna is a tuner! {'-) It accomplishes the same function... {'-) k WB9FMC
>> On 7/17/2020 6:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:
>> Antenna tuners
>>
>> I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the
>>
>> Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.
>>
>> 73 Ken K5DNL
>>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

k6dgw

Re: Antenna tuners

And the Texas Bug Catcher, Webster BandSpanner, SteppIR's, et al. All
represent changes to the antenna itself, which would also include
changing the height [e.g. cranking the tower up and down] and possibly
cutting down nearby trees or metal buildings [:=). Any change to the
antenna itself or its near-field environment will affect the feed point
complex impedance. This would include adding traps, inductors, and
capacitors to the antenna.

When you're done flutzing with the antenna itself, you are stuck with
whatever complex impedance you find at the feed point. AM broadcast
verticals are generally engineered for coverage near the edges of the
market area, meeting non-interference FS requirements, and minimizing
self-cancellation between the ground and sky wave. Something in the
vicinity of 195 degrees is generally optimal. They are not usually
resonant and there will be fixed matching network(s) at the base(s) ...
AM broadcast stations aren't known to QSY much.

I'm not familiar with the TurboTuner however many mechanical antenna
adjusters operated by driving the phase angle between voltage and
current to zero, that is effectively bringing the antenna into resonance
so the feedline sees a resistive load. It's up to you to design the
antenna so that resistive load matches the characteristic impedance of
the feedline OR put a matching network between the feedline and the
antenna feedpoint OR tolerate the SWR on the line and put the matching
network in the shack. Pick one.

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 7/17/2020 9:44 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:

> Save one; the screwdriver antenna on my truck is tuned (coil adjusted) by the TurboTuner attached to my radio until a match is found.
>
> And an argument could be made that a SteppIR controller performs a similar function.
>
> The rest are matching circuits to compensate for the disparity of input to output. 😜
>
> 73,
> Rick NK7I
>
> Email spiel Czech corruptions happen
>
>> On Jul 17, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> No antenna has, at any time, anywhere in any of our lifetimes, been "tuned" by an "antenna tuner." So called antenna tuners are 2-port impedance matching networks ... all of them ... and their job is to match the impedance on one port to another impedance on the second port, period. Nothing gets "tuned." They come in a variety of flavors ... a pair of push-pull 807's with a resonant tank and a link feed to the antenna on open wire line is one. Everything that happens on the feed line [regardless of it's construction] is the sole result of the complex impedance at the antenna feed point and the characteristic impedance of the feedline. No magic.
>>
>> 73,
>> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
>> "Captain Obvious"
>> Sparks NV DM09dn
>> Washoe County
>>
>>> On 7/17/2020 5:14 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:
>>> Kurt,
>>> We are not tuning the antenna , we are matching the antenna to the coax at the base of the antenna.
>>> 73 Ken K5DNL
>>>
>>> On Friday, July 17, 2020, 7:10:32 PM CDT, Kurt Pawlikowski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Ken: In some respects, a "matching device" at the base of the antenna is a tuner! {'-) It accomplishes the same function... {'-) k WB9FMC
>>> On 7/17/2020 6:34 PM, Ken Roberson via Elecraft wrote:
>>> Antenna tuners
>>>
>>> I never use an antenna tuner , on the MF and LF bands realmen use a scopematch at the
>>>
>>> Output of the Power Amp and a matching device at the base ofthe vertical antenna – HI Hi.
>>>
>>> 73 Ken K5DNL
>>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

W2xj

Re: Antenna tuners

That only applies to class A stations with protected skywave. Otherwise, something near 225 degrees is best.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 18, 2020, at 11:33, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And the Texas Bug Catcher, Webster BandSpanner, SteppIR's, et al. All represent changes to the antenna itself, which would also include changing the height [e.g. cranking the tower up and down] and possibly cutting down nearby trees or metal buildings [:=). Any change to the antenna itself or its near-field environment will affect the feed point complex impedance. This would include adding traps, inductors, and capacitors to the antenna.
>
> When you're done flutzing with the antenna itself, you are stuck with whatever complex impedance you find at the feed point. AM broadcast verticals are generally engineered for coverage near the edges of the market area, meeting non-interference FS requirements, and minimizing self-cancellation between the ground and sky wave. Something in the vicinity of 195 degrees is generally optimal. They are not usually resonant and there will be fixed matching network(s) at the base(s) ... AM broadcast stations aren't known to QSY much.
>
> I'm not familiar with the TurboTuner however many mechanical antenna adjusters operated by driving the phase angle between voltage and current to zero, that is effectively bringing the antenna into resonance so the feedline sees a resistive load. It's up to you to design the antenna so that resistive load matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline OR put a matching network between the feedline and the antenna feedpoint OR tolerate the SWR on the line and put the matching network in the shack. Pick one.
>
> 73,
> Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
> Sparks NV DM09dn
> Washoe County
>
>> On 7/17/2020 9:44 PM, Rick NK7I wrote:
>> Save one; the screwdriver antenna on my truck is tuned (coil adjusted) by the TurboTuner attached to my radio until a match is found.
>>
>> And an argument could be made that a SteppIR controller performs a similar function.
>>
>> The rest are matching circuits to compensate for the disparity of input to output. 😜
>>
>> 73,
>> Rick NK7I
>>
>> Email spiel Czech corruptions happen
>>
>>>> On Jul 17, 2020, at 7:00 PM, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> No antenna has, at any time, anywhere in any of our lifetimes, been "tuned" by an "antenna tuner." So called antenna tuners are 2-port impedance matching networks ... all of them ... and their

k6dgw

Re: Antenna tuners

I very vaguely remember there was a different optimum length for the
others, thanks!

73,
Fred ["Skip"] K6DGW
Sparks NV DM09dn
Washoe County

On 7/18/2020 12:25 PM, W2xj wrote:

> That only applies to class A stations with protected skywave. Otherwise, something near 225 degrees is best.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jul 18, 2020, at 11:33, Fred Jensen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> And the Texas Bug Catcher, Webster BandSpanner, SteppIR's, et al. All represent changes to the antenna itself, which would also include changing the height [e.g. cranking the tower up and down] and possibly cutting down nearby trees or metal buildings [:=). Any change to the antenna itself or its near-field environment will affect the feed point complex impedance. This would include adding traps, inductors, and capacitors to the antenna.
>>
>> When you're done flutzing with the antenna itself, you are stuck with whatever complex impedance you find at the feed point. AM broadcast verticals are generally engineered for coverage near the edges of the market area, meeting non-interference FS requirements, and minimizing self-cancellation between the ground and sky wave. Something in the vicinity of 195 degrees is generally optimal. They are not usually resonant and there will be fixed matching network(s) at the base(s) ... AM broadcast stations aren't known to QSY much.
>>
>> I'm not familiar with the TurboTuner however many mechanical antenna adjusters operated by driving the phase angle between voltage and current to zero, that is effectively bringing the antenna into resonance so the feedline sees a resistive load. It's up to you to design the antenna so that resistive load matches the characteristic impedance of the feedline OR put a matching network between the feedline and the antenna feedpoint OR tolerate the SWR on the line and put the matching network in the shack. Pick one.
>>