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Arc Fault Detector Woes

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Arc Fault Detector Woes

Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to our garage door operners.

It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.

Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON (running 500 watts) there is no problem.

Seems fine on other bands….

80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding stuff.

Any ides?

Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.

73.

Tom W4KX
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

Should have mentioned that there up is no trouble at 25 watts.

Certainly no trouble at 100 watts back at Field Day.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Tom Doligalski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to our garage door operners.
>
> It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
>
> Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
>
> Seems fine on other bands….
>
> 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding stuff.
>
> Any ides?
>
> Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.
>
> 73.
>
> Tom W4KX

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Alan Corbeth

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

Some yers ago I had a problem with the arc fault detectors tripping when transmitting. After contacting the ARRL to see if they were aware of any problems with these devices, it turned out that some of the new Eaton units were overly susceptible to RF. They put me in touch with Eaton who replaced all of them in my home. This resolved most of those issues.

Alan
W7OL

> On Jan 4, 2021, at 10:04 AM, Tom Doligalski via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Should have mentioned that there up is no trouble at 25 watts.
>
> Certainly no trouble at 100 watts back at Field Day.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
>> On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Tom Doligalski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to our garage door operners.
>>
>> It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
>>
>> Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
>>
>> Seems fine on other bands….
>>
>> 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding stuff.
>>
>> Any ides?
>>
>> Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.
>>
>> 73.
>>
>> Tom W4KX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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wa6vab

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

N0WL

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Is the Windom in your attic or outside? My guess is that your antenna is
parallel to the house wiring, and is inducing a current on the ground or
neutral wire. A replacement AFCI breaker might fix the problem. Or a
heavy choke on the AC.

This may or may not be your situation. Most newer houses run all electric
wires from the breaker box up into the attic and back down to wherever they
need to be. At least in single-story homes. That puts the attic antenna
close to the unshielded house wiring.

In my house, it wasn't the AFCI that would go nuts, but the doorbell would
ring when I went over 35 Watts on 20m. I had to install a choke on the
doorbell wire to stop that. Now, every time I transmit, I imagine the
doorbell or smoke detector going off in my neighbor's 2-story next to me.

jon N0WL

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 2:32 PM Tom Doligalski via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Should have mentioned that there up is no trouble at 25 watts.
>
> Certainly no trouble at 100 watts back at Field Day.
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> > On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Tom Doligalski <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc
> fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the
> shack, but to our garage door operners.
> >
> > It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
> >
> > Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on
> 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON
> (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
> >
> > Seems fine on other bands….
> >
> > 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line
> isolator/grounding stuff.
> >
> > Any ides?
> >
> > Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.
> >
> > 73.
> >
> > Tom W4KX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

Windom is 20’ outside, pretty perpendicular to the house . No problem at 500W.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 4, 2021, at 5:22 PM, Jon Poland <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> Is the Windom in your attic or outside? My guess is that your antenna is parallel to the house wiring, and is inducing a current on the ground or neutral wire. A replacement AFCI breaker might fix the problem. Or a heavy choke on the AC.
>
> This may or may not be your situation. Most newer houses run all electric wires from the breaker box up into the attic and back down to wherever they need to be. At least in single-story homes. That puts the attic antenna close to the unshielded house wiring.
>
> In my house, it wasn't the AFCI that would go nuts, but the doorbell would ring when I went over 35 Watts on 20m. I had to install a choke on the doorbell wire to stop that. Now, every time I transmit, I imagine the doorbell or smoke detector going off in my neighbor's 2-story next to me.
>
> jon N0WL
>
>> On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 2:32 PM Tom Doligalski via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Should have mentioned that there up is no trouble at 25 watts.
>>
>> Certainly no trouble at 100 watts back at Field Day.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> > On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Tom Doligalski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to our garage door operners.
>> >
>> > It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
>> >
>> > Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
>> >
>> > Seems fine on other bands….
>> >
>> > 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding stuff.
>> >
>> > Any ides?
>> >
>> > Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.
>> >
>> > 73.
>> >
>> > Tom W4KX
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]

weaverwf@usermail.com

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Tom,

I had the same problem with a new house in 2011. The Eaton breakers of that era (2010-2012 or so) were faulty and being replaced by Eaton. It’s a long shot that it’s the cause of your problem but I mention it just in case (or if someone else is having a chronic problem).

73,
Bill WE5P

Comfortably Numb

> On Jan 4, 2021, at 15:31, Tom Doligalski via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to our garage door operners.
>
> It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
>
> Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
>
> Seems fine on other bands….
>
> 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding stuff.
>
> Any ides?
>
> Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.
>
> 73.
>
> Tom W4KX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Lou Mecseri

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

In reply to this post by N0WL

I had similar line conducted RF issue with my brand new Samsung gas
range/stove. 30 watts turned on the gas oven and adjusted the clock
randomly. Installation of a computer type line filter solved my
problem. Samsung was not interested or wanted to address the issue. I
did prevail and finally a Samsung engineer admitted the design problem.
No solution from Samsung. I would buy AC connected Samsung product with
the option to return in case of RF issue. Perhaps Consumer Report
should evaluate products for RF susceptibility the FCC sure not interested.

73, Lou KE1F.

On 1/4/2021 5:21 PM, Jon Poland wrote:

> Is the Windom in your attic or outside? My guess is that your antenna is
> parallel to the house wiring, and is inducing a current on the ground or
> neutral wire. A replacement AFCI breaker might fix the problem. Or a
> heavy choke on the AC.
>
> This may or may not be your situation. Most newer houses run all electric
> wires from the breaker box up into the attic and back down to wherever they
> need to be. At least in single-story homes. That puts the attic antenna
> close to the unshielded house wiring.
>
> In my house, it wasn't the AFCI that would go nuts, but the doorbell would
> ring when I went over 35 Watts on 20m. I had to install a choke on the
> doorbell wire to stop that. Now, every time I transmit, I imagine the
> doorbell or smoke detector going off in my neighbor's 2-story next to me.
>
> jon N0WL
>
> On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 2:32 PM Tom Doligalski via Elecraft <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Should have mentioned that there up is no trouble at 25 watts.
>>
>> Certainly no trouble at 100 watts back at Field Day.
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>>> On Jan 4, 2021, at 12:57 PM, Tom Doligalski <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc
>> fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the
>> shack, but to our garage door operners.
>>> It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
>>>
>>> Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on
>> 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON
>> (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
>>> Seems fine on other bands….
>>>
>>> 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line
>> isolator/grounding stuff.
>>> Any ides?
>>>
>>> Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.
>>>
>>> 73.
>>>
>>> Tom W4KX
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>> Message delivered to [hidden email]
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]

Mark Goldberg

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

In reply to this post by weaverwf@usermail.com

I had done some research a while back of various postings on forums
and came to the conclusion that the fixed Eaton BR or Square D
Homeline AFCIs would work OK in the presence of RF.

I have not tried either yet. ARRL had a link to a contact at Eaton here:

http://www.arrl.org/news/arrl-helps-manufacturer-to-resolve-arc-fault-circuit-interrupter-rfi-problems

73,

Mark
W7MLG

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 3:34 PM [hidden email]
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Tom,
>
> I had the same problem with a new house in 2011. The Eaton breakers of that era (2010-2012 or so) were faulty and being replaced by Eaton. It’s a long shot that it’s the cause of your problem but I mention it just in case (or if someone else is having a chronic problem).
>
> 73,
> Bill WE5P
>
> Comfortably Numb
>
> > On Jan 4, 2021, at 15:31, Tom Doligalski via Elecraft <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > Over the last several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector (AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to our garage door operners.
> >
> > It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.
> >
> > Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80 CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON (running 500 watts) there is no problem.
> >
> > Seems fine on other bands….
> >
> > 80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding stuff.
> >
> > Any ides?
> >
> > Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.

Val-12

Re: Arc Fault Detector Woes

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Gentelmen,

Read the details and not the message subject only. It is not a matter of a
faulty detector and a HF caused false AFCI trip. There is no way 100W RF to
trip a detector that is OK at 500W. Tom guessed it right, it should be the
KPA3-100. As the issue is on 80M only (maybe on 160M too?) and the other
bands are OK, the DC circuits (as the power supply connector) can be ruled
out.

It could be a faulty choke or a capacitor causing a LF parasitic
oscillations. Actually the arc fault detector is watching for LF waves that
every arc use to emit. Remember where the radio started from.

73, Val LZ1VB

----- Цитат от Tom Doligalski via Elecraft
([hidden email]), на 04.01.2021 в 19:57 ----- Over the last
several weeks I’ve been having problems with the arc fault detector
(AFCI) in my fusebox.This does not control the power to the shack, but to
our garage door operners.

It seemed random at first, but I think I’ve tracked it down a bit.

Running an Elecraft K3/KPA500/KAT500 combo. The AFCI ONLY trips when on 80
CW, running 100 watts (the KPA500 in standby bode). If the KPA500 is ON
(running 500 watts) there is no problem.

Seems fine on other bands….

80M antenna is a Carolina Windom. The usual baluns/line isolator/grounding
stuff.

Any ides?

Kinda worried that there is an issue with the 100 W amp in the K3.

73.

Tom W4KX
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
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