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Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

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raroth7

Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
out completely.

Hope I'm not adding too much noise to the FW discussion!

--
73,
Dick ka1oz
Middleborough, MA

Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
Antenna: Titan-DX
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Rob May-2

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

Yesterday during the NAQP I used the auto notch several times and it worked fine. I haven't noticed the problems some others are having.
Rob
NV5E

> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 15:22:21 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Elecraft] Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)
>
> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
> out completely.
>
> Hope I'm not adding too much noise to the FW discussion!
>
>
> --
> 73,
> Dick ka1oz
> Middleborough, MA
>
> Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
> Antenna: Titan-DX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
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> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

AD4C2009

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

I installed FW 3.25 this morning and have had several times the automatic notch and alwways works as before,no problem on my K3.

AD4C

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits".. -- Albert Einstein

--- On Sun, 8/16/09, Rob May <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Rob May <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)
To: [hidden email]
Date: Sunday, August 16, 2009, 7:40 PM

Yesterday during the NAQP I used the auto notch several times and it worked fine. I haven't noticed the problems some others are having.
Rob
NV5E

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hb9brj

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by raroth7

Dick Roth KA1OZ wrote

Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
out completely.

Same thing here. Auto Notch is gone in 3.25.

73, Markus HB9BRJ

AC7AC

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

raroth7

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by raroth7

Ken Wagner K3IU wrote:

> Hi Dick:
>
> Something is funny about this, 'cuz lots of folks have said it is not
> working and lots, including me, say it works just fine. Only thing I can
> think of trying to possibly correct it is to do a *complete *reload of
> the firmware. I have had a couple of occasions where that fixed weird
> problems in the past.
>
> 73 from just down 24 a bit...
>
> Ken K3IU
> K3 #202
> Portsmouth, RI
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``
> Dick Roth, KA1OZ wrote:
>> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
>> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
>> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
>> out completely.
>>
>> Hope I'm not adding too much noise to the FW discussion!
>>
>>
>>

Thanks for the suggestion, Ken. I reloaded and still have the same
condition. Doesn't matter whether AGC if fast or slow. The tone
doesn't wander much and in manual mode I can quiet the tone and not have
to fuss to keep it quiet.

--
73 from just up 24 a bit,
Dick ka1oz
Middleborough, MA

Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
Antenna: Titan-DX
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Dave - NX7F

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by raroth7

FWIW: Auto Notch working fine here, even after loading 3.25.

Dave, NX7F

-----Original Message-----
From: Dick Roth, KA1OZ [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 12:22
To: Elecraft Reflector
Subject: [Elecraft] Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
out completely.

Hope I'm not adding too much noise to the FW discussion!

--
73,
Dick ka1oz
Middleborough, MA

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Mike Harris

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by AC7AC

G'day,

To hopefully settle this, at least for my own case, I reloaded Beta
3r19 and did the following test:

14195kHz SSB, AGC F. S7 signal from my K2. With my line out
setting this gave a -46dB signal displayed in Spectrogram 16.
Applying auto notch reduced this to -87dB or better.

Reloaded Beta 3r25. With the same set up the signals displayed
were -46dB notch off, -72dB notch on.

I conclude that something significant has changed with auto notch.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
To: "'hb9brj'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed
this)

> Strange - it works just as described in the Owner's manual here:
> auto notch
> on SSB, manual (only) on AM/CW/DATA.
>
> Is it possible your AGC was turned off?
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Dick Roth KA1OZ wrote:
>>
>> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
>> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
>> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and
>> notched it
>> out completely.
>>
>
> Same thing here. Auto Notch is gone in 3.25.
>
> 73, Markus HB9BRJ

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raroth7

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by AC7AC

Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Strange - it works just as described in the Owner's manual here: auto notch
> on SSB, manual (only) on AM/CW/DATA.
>
> Is it possible your AGC was turned off?
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> -----Original Message-----
>
> Dick Roth KA1OZ wrote:
>> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
>> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
>> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
>> out completely.
>>
>
> Same thing here. Auto Notch is gone in 3.25.
>
> 73, Markus HB9BRJ

AGC is on. Here are the settings:

AGC Delay nor
AGC Hold 000
AGC PLS nor
AGC SLP 002
AGC THR 008
AGC-F 140
AGC-S 010

Otherwise, the function appears to work properly when in manual mode.

--
73,
Dick ka1oz
Middleborough, MA

Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
Antenna: Titan-DX
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Phillip Buckholdt-2

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

Auto noych works fine here also. NR much inproved onSSB with only a little
loss of gain. Been using 3.25 two weeks.

73 Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Roth, KA1OZ" <[hidden email]>
To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
Cc: "'hb9brj'" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

> Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Strange - it works just as described in the Owner's manual here: auto
>> notch
>> on SSB, manual (only) on AM/CW/DATA.
>>
>> Is it possible your AGC was turned off?
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> Dick Roth KA1OZ wrote:
>>> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
>>> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
>>> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
>>> out completely.
>>>
>>
>> Same thing here. Auto Notch is gone in 3.25.
>>
>> 73, Markus HB9BRJ
>
> AGC is on. Here are the settings:
>
> AGC Delay nor
> AGC Hold 000
> AGC PLS nor
> AGC SLP 002
> AGC THR 008
> AGC-F 140
> AGC-S 010
>
> Otherwise, the function appears to work properly when in manual mode.
>
> --
> 73,
> Dick ka1oz
> Middleborough, MA
>
> Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
> Antenna: Titan-DX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>

AC7AC

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by Mike Harris

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Greg - AB7R

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by raroth7

I've talked to Lyle about this and he is going to look at it when he
gets back from a trip he is on.

73
Greg
AB7R

On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Dick Roth, KA1OZ wrote:

> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
> out completely.
>
> Hope I'm not adding too much noise to the FW discussion!
>
>
> --
> 73,
> Dick ka1oz
> Middleborough, MA
>
> Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
> Antenna: Titan-DX
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

raroth7

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by raroth7

Dick Roth, KA1OZ wrote:

> Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>> Strange - it works just as described in the Owner's manual here: auto notch
>> on SSB, manual (only) on AM/CW/DATA.
>>
>> Is it possible your AGC was turned off?
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>>
>> Dick Roth KA1OZ wrote:
>>> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
>>> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to use
>>> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and notched it
>>> out completely.
>>>
>> Same thing here. Auto Notch is gone in 3.25.
>>
>> 73, Markus HB9BRJ
>
> AGC is on. Here are the settings:
>
> AGC Delay nor
> AGC Hold 000
> AGC PLS nor
> AGC SLP 002
> AGC THR 008
> AGC-F 140
> AGC-S 010
>
> Otherwise, the function appears to work properly when in manual mode.
>

I, too, went back to 3.19. Auto-notch works as it always did before I
loaded 3.25.

My rig is a pretty early one, serial 859, with no mods performed since
the original build. Never did the mods because I never saw the need.
After an early failure of the front panel, the radio has been performing
flawlessly. I couldn't be more pleased! But, I'll have to see how
things fall out to determine whether to stay with 3019 and have
auto-notch or go forward again to 3.25 to enjoy the improved NR.

--
73,
Dick ka1oz
Middleborough, MA

Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
Antenna: Titan-DX
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Brett Howard

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by AC7AC

Made me go look again as well.

with 50uV injected into the back I got an AFV of 1773. I first centered
the signal in CW and then changed to SSB. I have the auto offset
feature turned on so my rig was still centered and I know the frequency
of the tone this way. This allows me to use my pitch frequency for the
manual notch setting and I know I'm centered (or as centered as the CWT
gets me as I did not use my ear this time to zero beat).

Auto notch = -35.9dB
Manual notch = -46.2dB

Then I repeated the experiment with 1uV injected:

Auto notch = -7.8dB
Manual notch = -11.2dB

Its clear to the ear that the auto notch is not doing as good of a job
in comparison to manual but I'd not say that its "not working".

Doing this test made me think of an idea though. What about when
engaging the manual notch if you were in auto before how about having
the manual set to the same frequency that the auto algorithm found
rather than 2k. This would then hopefully mean you'd only have minor
tweaking to get it perfect. Although hopefully the auto improves a lil
in the future too...

All in all the auto notch is still doing a quite fair job in my shack!

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Sun, 2009-08-16 at 15:25 -0700, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> Ya' made me go look (again) Mike:
>
> On mine, both auto and manual work, but the manual notch is much deeper than
> the automatic notch.
>
> Using the K2's internal metering while invoking the notch listening to a
> clean input from a signal generator, I see a 38 dB drop in level using the
> automatic notch and a 51 db drop using manual notch.
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> G'day,
>
> To hopefully settle this, at least for my own case, I reloaded Beta
> 3r19 and did the following test:
>
> 14195kHz SSB, AGC F. S7 signal from my K2. With my line out
> setting this gave a -46dB signal displayed in Spectrogram 16.
> Applying auto notch reduced this to -87dB or better.
>
> Reloaded Beta 3r25. With the same set up the signals displayed
> were -46dB notch off, -72dB notch on.
>
> I conclude that something significant has changed with auto notch.
>
> Regards,
>
> Mike VP8NO
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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k6dgw

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by raroth7

Dick Roth, KA1OZ wrote:

>> Strange - it works just as described in the Owner's manual here: auto
>> notch
>> on SSB, manual (only) on AM/CW/DATA.

It didn't work for me in the NAQP SSB ... but then again hardly anything
works for me on SSB :-) Manual notch worked just fine. I never turn
AGC off but every now and then, my brain fades, however in this case,
I'm pretty sure autonotch was NOT working. I haven't reloaded, I will
tomorow.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 2009 Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2009
- www.cqp.org
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Stewart Baker

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25 (I probably missed this)

In reply to this post by Greg - AB7R

My feelings are that something in the notch part of the DSP code
is not being initialised properly. I have had the Auto notch both
not work, then work.

73
Stewart G3RXQ
On Sun, 16 Aug 2009 15:28:12 -0700, Gregory Fischer wrote:
> I've talked to Lyle about this and he is going to look at it
when he

> gets back from a trip he is on.
>
> 73
> Greg
> AB7R
>
> On Aug 16, 2009, at 12:22 PM, Dick Roth, KA1OZ wrote:
>
>> Tried listening for the Elecraft SSB net at 1800. There was a
>> heterodyne or other interfering signal on 14.316. I tried to

use
>> Auto-Notch, but nothing changed. Then I went to manual and
notched it

>> out completely.
>>
>> Hope I'm not adding too much noise to the FW discussion!
>>
>>
>> --
>> 73,
>> Dick ka1oz
>> Middleborough, MA
>>
>> Radio: Elecraft K3/100(Kit) SN 859
>> Antenna: Titan-DX
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list:

http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Mike Harris

Re: Auto-Notch Broken in 3.25

G'day,

Not many comparisons between 3.19 and 3.25 firmware. I didn't check
the manual notch, however, it works but it works in a different way
in that it creates a big hole in the audio baseband, look at it
working in Spectran. Auto notch takes out an interfering heterodyne
down to the audio noise floor (Beta 3r19) without creating the hole.
Two different functions.

Because there seems to be two distinct camps, one it works and one
it is broken I have now done another set of tests. To try and
create some degree of stability in my method I used my XG1 as the
signal source. The results are quite interesting. But first
without the numbers.

It is clear that the audible effectiveness of the auto notch (Beta
3r25) depends greatly on the strength of the signal to be notched.
AGC action may be the controlling factor. With an S9 signal (XG1 on
7040kHz) the auto notch indeed seems to be working normally, the
tone essentially vanishes, but also the background noise vanishes
due to the AGC. If instead of a 50uV signal the 1uV signal is used,
with my AGC settings the noise floor doesn't change due to the AGC
threshold not being met. In this case when auto notch is activated
there is still an audible tone. The essential difference between
the Beta's is that with 3r19 in either condition 1uV or 50uV no tone
is audible.

So, numbers:

XG1 - 7040kHz
K3 SSB, BW norm factory settings BW 2k7, LO k150, FC 1k5, HI 2k85
AGC F (note, auto notch is N/A with AGC OFF)
AGC parameters SLP 005, THR 005 (nothing exotic)

I used readings from both the internal K3 dBV metering and from
Spectrogram 16. There is a difference. My sound "card" is a pretty
bog standard Dell vintage 2000 not a fancy low noise offering.

Beta 3r19 Beta 3r25

dBV Gram 16 dBv Gram 16

0 -89 0 -89 Noise floor no
signal
+17.8 -51 +18.2 -50 1uV signal
-1 -92 +2.5 -69 Auto notch
Note that with the 1uV signal there is no change in noise floor
(0/-89) due to AGC action.

0 -89 0 -89 Noise floor no
signal
+26.9 -41 +27.4 -41 50uV signal
-23.7 -106 -8.5 -108 Auto notch
Note that with the 50uV signal noise floor adjacent to the signal
has dropped to -23.7/-108 due to AGC action.

I hope this has been useful, interesting even. It is clear that
something significant has changed between Beta 3r19 and 3r25 and I
have elected to stick with Beta 3r19 for now until it's problems are
fixed. The enhancements in Beta 3r25 are not a big issue at this
QTH.

Aditionally, it would be useful if the "delta f" led flashed
throughout the data load process, including the big DSP files.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO

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