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Band Button gripe - was ON4UN has a K3?

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Don Rasmussen

Band Button gripe - was ON4UN has a K3?

>>>Just what is "the big deal" about pushing a single
button instead of pushing two buttons in sequence to
get to the band and mode you want? <<<

Hey Doug - You hit the nail on the head, contestors
have the optimal solution with the stock K3. But
"modest stations", what I'll call condo class or
dipole class (like my own) require a scan of the
available bands to see which -one- you can use on a
given day. There is a fair amount of back and forth in
determining which band to call home for a couple
hours.

With single touch band changes, you press one button
(example 20m), twirl the main tuning knob, take a
reading, okay now hit the next band up (15m), twirl,
okay how about 10m? Nope, MUF not there, back to 15m.
Your finger remembers single press bands, even between
weekends (many of us work).

Now imagine sitting down on Saturday morning after
last
operation a week ago - okay, hmmm, which button oh
yeah - M->V, okay now which band is button 20m? Hmmm
think it's 1. Two button press and you are there.

Repeat 3 times as in example.

Summary - one button is enough for even a finger to
remember for a week. Multiple keypresses, in addition
to requiring extra time to accomplish, require the
user "boot the brain" before the action gets
accomplished.

Hard to put into words Doug, but if you were there it
would be plain as day!

c u

Don

--- DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Don,
>
> I am genuinely curious. Just what is "the big deal"
> about pushing a
> single button instead of pushing two buttons in
> sequence to get to the
> band and mode you want? I just don't see how it can
> matter...and I'm
> a contester, so speed is important to me. You
> really have me baffled
> so I please fill me in.
>
> Thanks!
> de Doug KR2Q
>

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Brett Howard

Re: Band Button gripe - was ON4UN has a K3?

Or you can just use an up/down and get done the working up the bands and
scanning with the dial...

Hell our forefathers had to tune up for quite some time to change bands.
Now we've reached the point where using and up/down button set is too
slow for us. Then god forbid we actually have to engage our brain and
remember what band we have saved where. If its so hard put a band plan
on the wall and just write a number next to each one in order. Then you
can walk through them that way. But oh my gosh we have to press two
buttons to get to each band.... If you're a condo/dipole class why not
sit back and enjoy it. Maybe cut your QSO shorter by 3 seconds so you
can get in those extra button presses for band changes.

Maybe you can head to a fast food place and have them make you a meal
that you can eat in the car without having to ever stop or get out.
That should save you enough time for a few extra button presses to
change bands.

Personally I like the portability that a smaller/lighter rig affords me.
Thankfully the K1, KX1, K2, and K3 pretty much all fit into that
category. I don't think I'm alone in this though.... There has to be a
reason why the IC706 is the best selling rig in the hobby and it has
band up/dn buttons. Not that I own one though...

On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 20:24 -0700, Don Rasmussen wrote:

> >>>Just what is "the big deal" about pushing a single
> button instead of pushing two buttons in sequence to
> get to the band and mode you want? <<<
>
> Hey Doug - You hit the nail on the head, contestors
> have the optimal solution with the stock K3. But
> "modest stations", what I'll call condo class or
> dipole class (like my own) require a scan of the
> available bands to see which -one- you can use on a
> given day. There is a fair amount of back and forth in
> determining which band to call home for a couple
> hours.
>
> With single touch band changes, you press one button
> (example 20m), twirl the main tuning knob, take a
> reading, okay now hit the next band up (15m), twirl,
> okay how about 10m? Nope, MUF not there, back to 15m.
> Your finger remembers single press bands, even between
> weekends (many of us work).
>
> Now imagine sitting down on Saturday morning after
> last
> operation a week ago - okay, hmmm, which button oh
> yeah - M->V, okay now which band is button 20m? Hmmm
> think it's 1. Two button press and you are there.
>
> Repeat 3 times as in example.
>
> Summary - one button is enough for even a finger to
> remember for a week. Multiple keypresses, in addition
> to requiring extra time to accomplish, require the
> user "boot the brain" before the action gets
> accomplished.
>
> Hard to put into words Doug, but if you were there it
> would be plain as day!
>
> c u
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- DOUGLAS ZWIEBEL <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Don,
> >
> > I am genuinely curious. Just what is "the big deal"
> > about pushing a
> > single button instead of pushing two buttons in
> > sequence to get to the
> > band and mode you want? I just don't see how it can
> > matter...and I'm
> > a contester, so speed is important to me. You
> > really have me baffled
> > so I please fill me in.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > de Doug KR2Q
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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k0wa@swbell.net

Re: Band Button gripe

In reply to this post by Don Rasmussen

Idea....

Why not make an additional set of control buttons and use the "secret" connector on the bottom right side of the K3. Just a small panel that would fit under the K3 and would give you numerous programmable buttons. Then, you could set up the button on the little add on panel.

Or, for quick band changes in a contest....I use N1MM logger and just change bands and modes through software.

Or, a stand alone PIC processor on the RS232 port that does the same thing as software in a computer. There are a lot of people who like to "market" add-ons to the Elecraft products that just work great. Fingerdimple, LP-PAN, etc...

Lee - K0WA

In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
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Brett Howard

Re: Band Button gripe

These ideas make much more sense than trying to remap front panel
buttons. I think the field testers did a great job of defining how the
ergonomics are to flow.

~Brett

On Fri, 2008-07-25 at 20:43 -0700, Lee Buller wrote:

> Idea....
>
> Why not make an additional set of control buttons and use the "secret" connector on the bottom right side of the K3. Just a small panel that would fit under the K3 and would give you numerous programmable buttons. Then, you could set up the button on the little add on panel.
>
> Or, for quick band changes in a contest....I use N1MM logger and just change bands and modes through software.
>
> Or, a stand alone PIC processor on the RS232 port that does the same thing as software in a computer. There are a lot of people who like to "market" add-ons to the Elecraft products that just work great. Fingerdimple, LP-PAN, etc...
>
> Lee - K0WA
>
>
>
> In our day and age it seems that Common Sense is in short supply. If you don't have any Common Sense - get some Common Sense and use it. If you can't find any Common Sense, ask for help from somebody who has some Common Sense. Is Common Sense divine?
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
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Dave Agsten

RE: Band Button Gripe

In reply to this post by k0wa@swbell.net

Saw this > But I really don't think it's about panel space, it's
about how the designers want us to use the K3... <

Isn't that true with the Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu radios? You have to use it the way it's designed....... What a concept. I hope Elecraft has their filter working on this one, drops it, and continues to address refining performance items.

73,
Dave N8AG

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N5GE

Re: RE: Band Button Gripe

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT), Dave Agsten <[hidden email]> wrote:

>Saw this > But I really don't think it's about panel space, it's
>about how the designers want us to use the K3... <
>
>Isn't that true with the Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu radios? You have to use it the way it's designed....... What a concept. I hope Elecraft has their filter working on this one, drops it, and continues to address refining performance items.
>
>73,
>Dave N8AG
>

Amen.

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

AC7AC

ESD Safety

In reply to this post by Dave Agsten

CONTENTS DELETED

The author has deleted this message.

Rick Dettinger-3

Re: ESD Safety

Looks like the only solution is to work under water. All of the
voltages exceed the 30 volts or so level we have heard cause damage
to sensitive components.

73
Rick Dettinger K7MW
====================================

On Jul 26, 2008, at 9:51 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

>
> This is a subject that comes up here regularly among those working on
> their Elecraft (and other) rigs.
>
> Doing some research on a project, I ran across the following values
> published by Hewlett-Packard Company. They provide some insight about
> why it's important to use ESD-safe handling procedures.
>
> The "PCBs" mentioned below are, of course, Printed Circuit Boards, not
> the stuff found in old capacitors and transformers. "DIPs" are Dual
> In-line Pin integrated circuits such as found throughout Elecraft
> rigs.
>
> Typical Electrostatic Voltage Levels
>
> Relative Humidity for each voltage level shown below:
> 10%
> 40%
> 55%
>
> Walking across carpet
> 35,000 V
> 15,000 V
> 7,500 V
>
> Walking across vinyl floor
> 12,000 V
> 5,000 V
> 3,000 V
>
> Motions of bench worker
> 6,000 V
> 800 V
> 400 V
>
> Removing DIPS from plastic tube
> 2,000 V
> 700 V
> 400 V
>
> Removing DIPS from vinyl tray
> 11,500 V
> 4,000 V
> 2,000 V
>
> Removing DIPS from Styrofoam
> 14,500 V
> 5,000 V
> 3,500 V
>
> Removing bubble pack from PCB
> 26,500 V
> 20,000 V
> 7,000 V
>
> Packing PCBs in foam-lined box
> 21,000 V
> 11,000 V
> 5,000 V
>
> Ron AC7AC
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Elliott Lawrence-3

Re: ESD Safety

Even with all of the ESD controls in place, the mil specs require the
assembly operation to shut down if the humidity goes below 25%!!!

Elliott WA6TLA

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rick Dettinger" <[hidden email]>
To: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] ESD Safety

> Looks like the only solution is to work under water. All of the voltages
> exceed the 30 volts or so level we have heard cause damage to sensitive
> components.
>
> 73
> Rick Dettinger K7MW
> ====================================
>
> On Jul 26, 2008, at 9:51 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
>
>>
>> This is a subject that comes up here regularly among those working on
>> their Elecraft (and other) rigs.
>>
>> Doing some research on a project, I ran across the following values
>> published by Hewlett-Packard Company. They provide some insight about
>> why it's important to use ESD-safe handling procedures.
>>
>> The "PCBs" mentioned below are, of course, Printed Circuit Boards, not
>> the stuff found in old capacitors and transformers. "DIPs" are Dual
>> In-line Pin integrated circuits such as found throughout Elecraft rigs.
>>
>> Typical Electrostatic Voltage Levels
>>
>> Relative Humidity for each voltage level shown below:
>> 10%
>> 40%
>> 55%
>>
>> Walking across carpet
>> 35,000 V
>> 15,000 V
>> 7,500 V
>>
>> Walking across vinyl floor
>> 12,000 V
>> 5,000 V
>> 3,000 V
>>
>> Motions of bench worker
>> 6,000 V
>> 800 V
>> 400 V
>>
>> Removing DIPS from plastic tube
>> 2,000 V
>> 700 V
>> 400 V
>>
>> Removing DIPS from vinyl tray
>> 11,500 V
>> 4,000 V
>> 2,000 V
>>
>> Removing DIPS from Styrofoam
>> 14,500 V
>> 5,000 V
>> 3,500 V
>>
>> Removing bubble pack from PCB
>> 26,500 V
>> 20,000 V
>> 7,000 V
>>
>> Packing PCBs in foam-lined box
>> 21,000 V
>> 11,000 V
>> 5,000 V
>>
>> Ron AC7AC
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Post to: [hidden email]
>> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
>> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
>> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

WA8EBM

Re: RE: Band Button Gripe

In reply to this post by N5GE

I don't see how all this band button talk is going to make any difference
with the K3. The panel is the way it is and I doubt that they can
economically change things.
Maybe in the future, when K3 sales drop off, they will come up with a new
package for the K3 boards that would incorporate a panadapter and slots for
transverters and all the buttons you could want. It would be nice if we
could use our existing electronics in a bigger package, for those so
inclined to upgrade. I think Elecraft chose a layout very similar to the
TS-570 which was very functional. Some people are impressed with the
obsessive amount of controls on a FT-2000 or the fewer ones of the IC706. I
think Elecraft found a sound medium. I own both of those and find the K3
easiest to use. Some people don't think they are getting their money's worth
unless there is a big cabinet. Take a look at all the dead space inside an
Orion II cabinet. Now if I could just find something new and useful to do
with my unsused K2 sitting on the shelf.

Mike WA8EBM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Band Button Gripe

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT), Dave Agsten <[hidden email]>
wrote:

Amen.

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

_______________________________________________
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N5GE

Re: RE: Band Button Gripe

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 13:32:10 -0400, "Mike Penkas" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>I don't see how all this band button talk is going to make any difference
>with the K3. The panel is the way it is and I doubt that they can
>economically change things.

I agree.

>Maybe in the future, when K3 sales drop off, they will come up with a new
>package for the K3 boards that would incorporate a panadapter and slots for
>transverters and all the buttons you could want. It would be nice if we
>could use our existing electronics in a bigger package, for those so
>inclined to upgrade. I think Elecraft chose a layout very similar to the
>TS-570 which was very functional. Some people are impressed with the
>obsessive amount of controls on a FT-2000 or the fewer ones of the IC706. I
>think Elecraft found a sound medium. I own both of those and find the K3
>easiest to use. Some people don't think they are getting their money's worth
>unless there is a big cabinet.

The Japanese manufacturers sell their radios by their weight, multiplied by the
number of front panel controls ;O)

>Take a look at all the dead space inside an
>Orion II cabinet.

Well, they had to make room for that big control panel with the much less than
real-time band scope.

[snip]

I like the Elecraft way of letting you install options. If you don't want it
you don't pay for it.

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

_______________________________________________
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Amateur Radio Operator N5GE

Brett Howard

Re: RE: Band Button Gripe

In reply to this post by Dave Agsten

Agreed... I get a bit too wound up about it as it would frustrate me if
I was the designer. I've been very happy wtih Wayne's prior priority
structure and I'm sure it'll continue that way in the future.

The one I'm still interested in playing with is the DVR. It'll probably
be mostly a wowgit factor for me as I don't do a lot of SSB but it'll be
my favorite thing in the world for FD.

On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 07:29 -0700, Dave Agsten wrote:

> Saw this > But I really don't think it's about panel space, it's
> about how the designers want us to use the K3... <
>
> Isn't that true with the Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu radios? You have to use it the way it's designed....... What a concept. I hope Elecraft has their filter working on this one, drops it, and continues to address refining performance items.
>
> 73,
> Dave N8AG
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Brett Howard

Re: RE: Band Button Gripe

In reply to this post by WA8EBM

Heck I was impressed at how open and clean it was inside the K3. Then I
saw the pictures of the sub RX and was impressed at how shoehorned in
there it all was... Find it pretty impressive that they even had enough
room to add the extra sub RX shielding as an afterthoght too! Maybe
they were already planning for it as a possibility but when they were
cranking out the SubRX it seemed like it was something they had to add
to increase isolation between the two receivers.

~Brett (KC7OTG)

On Sat, 2008-07-26 at 13:32 -0400, Mike Penkas wrote:

> I don't see how all this band button talk is going to make any difference
> with the K3. The panel is the way it is and I doubt that they can
> economically change things.
> Maybe in the future, when K3 sales drop off, they will come up with a new
> package for the K3 boards that would incorporate a panadapter and slots for
> transverters and all the buttons you could want. It would be nice if we
> could use our existing electronics in a bigger package, for those so
> inclined to upgrade. I think Elecraft chose a layout very similar to the
> TS-570 which was very functional. Some people are impressed with the
> obsessive amount of controls on a FT-2000 or the fewer ones of the IC706. I
> think Elecraft found a sound medium. I own both of those and find the K3
> easiest to use. Some people don't think they are getting their money's worth
> unless there is a big cabinet. Take a look at all the dead space inside an
> Orion II cabinet. Now if I could just find something new and useful to do
> with my unsused K2 sitting on the shelf.
>
> Mike WA8EBM
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Band Button Gripe
>
>
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT), Dave Agsten <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >Saw this > But I really don't think it's about panel space, it's
> >about how the designers want us to use the K3... <
> >
> >Isn't that true with the Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu radios? You have to use it
> >the way it's designed....... What a concept. I hope Elecraft has their
> >filter working on this one, drops it, and continues to address refining
> >performance items.
> >
> >73,
> >Dave N8AG
> >
>
> Amen.
>
> Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq
>
> "Those who would give up
> Essential Liberty to
> purchase a little Temporary
> Safety deserve neither
> Liberty nor Safety"
>
> An excerpt from a letter
> written in 1755 from the
> Assembly to the Governor
> of Pennsylvania.
>
> Support the entire Constitution, not
> just the parts you like.
>
> http://www.n5ge.com
> http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
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>
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com

Mike Harris-9

RE: Band Button Gripe

In reply to this post by Brett Howard

G'day,

I don't recall all this anguish about the layout of the K2 front panel.
Why can't we just accept that it is as it is and get a life and get on
with better things. I'm sure there is no way it's going to redesigned to
suit individual whimsy. I for one am utterly sick of hearing about it.

Now where is my KRX3? When I receive it I can drop off this infuriating
Zoo.

Regards,

Mike VP8NO
K2 #1400
K3 #345

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Bill Johnson-9

RE: ESD Safety

In reply to this post by AC7AC

Ron, Thank you very much for the information. I usually work tethered to
ground with a wrist strap but also need to acquire a mat. Since my K3 will
be factory built, I won't rush it for now. My environment typically is 60%
humidity... sometimes higher... my shop/shack is in the basement. When I
start to smell mold I turn on the Dehumidifiers. Air conditioning is
available but the who needs that when the temp is 65!

72,

Bill

K9YEQ
K2 #35, K2 # 5279, KX1 #35, Mini Modules, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Ron D'Eau Claire
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:51 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Elecraft] ESD Safety

This is a subject that comes up here regularly among those working on
their Elecraft (and other) rigs.

Doing some research on a project, I ran across the following values
published by Hewlett-Packard Company. They provide some insight about
why it's important to use ESD-safe handling procedures.

The "PCBs" mentioned below are, of course, Printed Circuit Boards, not
the stuff found in old capacitors and transformers. "DIPs" are Dual
In-line Pin integrated circuits such as found throughout Elecraft rigs.

Typical Electrostatic Voltage Levels

Relative Humidity for each voltage level shown below:
10%
40%
55%

Walking across carpet
35,000 V
15,000 V
7,500 V

Walking across vinyl floor
12,000 V
5,000 V
3,000 V

Motions of bench worker
6,000 V
800 V
400 V

Removing DIPS from plastic tube
2,000 V
700 V
400 V

Removing DIPS from vinyl tray
11,500 V
4,000 V
2,000 V

Removing DIPS from Styrofoam
14,500 V
5,000 V
3,500 V

Removing bubble pack from PCB
26,500 V
20,000 V
7,000 V

Packing PCBs in foam-lined box
21,000 V
11,000 V
5,000 V

Ron AC7AC

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Bill Johnson-9

RE: RE: Band Button Gripe

In reply to this post by WA8EBM

I have two K2's and use the lower power one to irritate the QRO boys on 75.
They think I should add more power. I think they should get better
receivers!

72,

Bill

K9YEQ
K2 #35, K2 # 5279, KX1 #35, Mini Modules, etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Mike Penkas
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 12:32 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Cc: Elecraft Discussion List
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Band Button Gripe

I don't see how all this band button talk is going to make any difference
with the K3. The panel is the way it is and I doubt that they can
economically change things.
Maybe in the future, when K3 sales drop off, they will come up with a new
package for the K3 boards that would incorporate a panadapter and slots for
transverters and all the buttons you could want. It would be nice if we
could use our existing electronics in a bigger package, for those so
inclined to upgrade. I think Elecraft chose a layout very similar to the
TS-570 which was very functional. Some people are impressed with the
obsessive amount of controls on a FT-2000 or the fewer ones of the IC706. I

think Elecraft found a sound medium. I own both of those and find the K3
easiest to use. Some people don't think they are getting their money's worth

unless there is a big cabinet. Take a look at all the dead space inside an
Orion II cabinet. Now if I could just find something new and useful to do
with my unsused K2 sitting on the shelf.

Mike WA8EBM
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Childers, N5GE" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Cc: "Elecraft Discussion List" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] RE: Band Button Gripe

On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT), Dave Agsten <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>Saw this > But I really don't think it's about panel space, it's
>about how the designers want us to use the K3... <
>
>Isn't that true with the Icom, Kenwood and Yaesu radios? You have to use it

>the way it's designed....... What a concept. I hope Elecraft has their
>filter working on this one, drops it, and continues to address refining
>performance items.
>
>73,
>Dave N8AG
>

Amen.

Tom, N5GE - SWOT 3537 - Grid EM12jq

"Those who would give up
Essential Liberty to
purchase a little Temporary
Safety deserve neither
Liberty nor Safety"

An excerpt from a letter
written in 1755 from the
Assembly to the Governor
of Pennsylvania.

Support the entire Constitution, not
just the parts you like.

http://www.n5ge.com
http://www.eQSL.cc/Member.cfm?N5GE

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