Bass in audio is good

[Mike Scott-7]

I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the
audio response in the K3.

For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I
could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't
measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light.

Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance but
these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable
listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I want
it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also.

 

I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

 

Mike Scott

AE6WA Tarzana, CA

K3/100 SN508

 

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[S Sacco]

We're not broadcasters, we're communicators.

That extra frequency response takes away from the spectrum available
for our fellow Amateurs.

Don't even get me started on that "ESSB" stuff...and why is AM even
LEGAL anymore, anyway?

73,
Steve NN4X

On Sun, May 4, 2008 at 9:25 PM, Mike Scott <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the
>  audio response in the K3.
>
>  For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I
>  could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't
>  measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light.
>
>  Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance but
>  these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable
>  listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I want
>  it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also.
>
>
>
>  I wouldn't want it any other way.
>
>
>
>
>
>  Mike Scott
>
>  AE6WA Tarzana, CA
>
>  K3/100 SN508
>
>
>
>  _______________________________________________
>  Elecraft mailing list
>  Post to: [hidden email]
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>

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[N4LQ-2]

Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they need do is
adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice.

Steve Ellington
[hidden email]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Scott" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good

>I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the
> audio response in the K3.
>
> For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I
> could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't
> measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light.
>
> Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance
> but
> these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable
> listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I
> want
> it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also.
>
>
>
> I wouldn't want it any other way.
>
>
>
>
>
> Mike Scott
>
> AE6WA Tarzana, CA
>
> K3/100 SN508
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
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> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release Date: 5/3/2008
> 11:22 AM
>
>

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they
> need do is adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice.

No, adjusting the EQ messes up digital modes.  In addition,
additional bandwidth below 200 Hz makes the signal illegal
on 60 meters where the occupied bandwidth is specified at
2800 Hz maximum.  Good engineering practice calls for a
default transmitted audio spectrum of 200 Hz to 2800 Hz:
http://www.arrl.org/FandES/field/regulations/faq-60.html

If you want to act like a spoiled child and be a bandwidth
pig, use your EQ to mess up your own signal.  Allow the others
to occupy 200 - 2800 Hz and be legal on 60 meters without any
need to screw around with the EQ and effect other modes.

73,

   ... Joe, W4TV
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of n4lq
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 10:14 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
>
>
> Excellent job Mike! And if someone doesn't like bass all they
> need do is
> adjust the EQ. Now we have a choice.
>
> Steve Ellington
> [hidden email]
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Scott" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, May 04, 2008 9:25 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
>
>
> >I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra
> bandwidth in the
> > audio response in the K3.
> >
> > For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag
> chew net until I
> > could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that
> the K3 wouldn't
> > measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light.
> >
> > Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good
> dx performance
> > but
> > these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable
> > listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag
> chew when I
> > want
> > it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also.
> >
> >
> >
> > I wouldn't want it any other way.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Mike Scott
> >
> > AE6WA Tarzana, CA
> >
> > K3/100 SN508
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Post to: [hidden email]
> > You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> > Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> > http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> > Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG.
> > Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.8/1413 - Release
> Date: 5/3/2008
> > 11:22 AM
> >
> >
>
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[Julian, G4ILO]

Mike Scott-7 wrote

I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the
audio response in the K3.

Because people use their radios in different ways. Some of us don't want to waste energy generating frequencies that add nothing to the ability to be heard when signals are weak. We don't use SSB to have "armchair copy" chats using hi-fi speakers.

Nobody is asking that improved low frequency response should be taken away, just that it should be made an option. I'm not sure that the range of adjustment provided by TX EQ is great enough to restore the audio to the way it was before.

[LA4AMA]

<quote author="Mike Scott-7">
>I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth in the
>audio response in the K3.

>For me I have been reluctant to check into a regular rag chew net until I
>could have some extra low frequency response. I knew that the K3 wouldn't
>measure up and I didn't want the K3 to be seen in a poor light.

>Yes I am quite familiar that this is the opposite of good dx performance but
>these guys don't care about dx at all. They care about comfortable
>listening. I of course care about dx when I want it and rag chew when I want
>it. Now I can have both. AM sounds so much fuller now also.

>I wouldn't want it any other way.

>Mike Scott

>AE6WA Tarzana, CA

>K3/100 SN508
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hi Mike!

I agree with you. I also like the more "full" audio and I really would hate to see the K3 restricted in hardware or software. Adding a SSB TX bandwidth menu for adjusting this to each users preferences would be fine:

2400 Hz : 300 - 2700 Hz
2600 Hz : 200 - 2800 Hz (default ?)
2800 Hz : 200 - 3000 Hz
3000 Hz : 100 - 3100 Hz (requires 6kHz IF-filter)
3500 Hz : 70 - 3570 Hz (requires 6kHz IF-filter)
4000 Hz : 50 - 4050 Hz (requires 6kHz IF-filter)

One can also use a microphone with low cut (the Kenwood MC-90 is great and fits directly on the K3 without re-soldering the 8-pin connector). This one has a low cut with 2 positions, and it has a great audio response for SSB. It is a 250 ohm dynamic microphone with two replaceable microphone heads.

For ragchew on a quiet band it is nice to have some more low end and bandwidth.

Best regards
LA4AMA
Roar

[Craig-89]

If I could make my K3 sound like its using a Heil HC4
cartridge I would be happy.  The Heil HC4 audio sound
is ESSB for me!  

Maybe at sometime in the future  transmitting through
the 2.1khz filter on SSB will be made possible.

A further refinement of carrier point adjustment
combined with an  adjustable bandpass filter for the
TX audio might be another option.

It always strikes me how good  commercial SSB
operators on the marine and aeronautical HF bands
sound.  Their radios  have a precise frequency roll
off thats defined in  their standards. This
standardization  produces  good outcomes. Regardless
of what brand of Aircraft headset you use, you always
end up sounding the same on any aircraft HF radio.  I
think  its an ideal that we hams should strive for,
this plus clear communications quality audio.


73
Craig
VK3HE
--- G4ILO <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> Mike Scott-7 wrote:
> >
> > I am surprised to hear that people don't like the
> extra bandwidth in the
> > audio response in the K3.
> >
> Because people use their radios in different ways.
> Some of us don't want to
> waste energy generating frequencies that add nothing
> to the ability to be
> heard when signals are weak. We don't use SSB to
> have "armchair copy" chats
> using hi-fi speakers.
>
> Nobody is asking that improved low frequency
> response should be taken away,
> just that it should be made an option. I'm not sure
> that the range of
> adjustment provided by TX EQ is great enough to
> restore the audio to the way
> it was before.
>
> -----
> Julian, G4ILO  K3 s/n: 222 K2 s/n: 392
> G4ILO's Shack: www.g4ilo.com
> Zerobeat Ham Forums: www.zerobeat.net/smf
> --
> View this message in context:
>

http://www.nabble.com/Bass-in-audio-is-good-tp17053403p17053981.html

> Sent from the Elecraft mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
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[N2EY]

-----Original Message-----
From: S Sacco <[hidden email]>

>We're not broadcasters, we're communicators.

That's true. But there are all sorts of communication!

>That extra frequency response takes away from the spectrum available
>for our fellow Amateurs.

Hold that thought....

>Don't even get me started on that "ESSB" stuff...and why is AM even
>LEGAL anymore, anyway?

It's legal for two reasons:

1) A considerable number of hams like it and use it.

2) No one has come up with a proposal to ban it that hasn't generated
overwhelming opposition from the amateur community.

"Ban AM" (particularly from the HF amateur bands) proposals have popped
up from time to time since before I became a ham 40 years ago. Always
the same basic reason: AM is too wide.

Now about "tak[ing] away from the spectrum available for our fellow
Amateurs" - if using the minimum amount of spectrum is the issue, why
are any modes wider than a few hundred Hz allowed? Ten CW or PSK31 QSOs
can fit in the space of one SSB QSO, so why is SSB still allowed?

73 de Jim, N2EY

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[Joe Subich, W4TV-3]

> 2) No one has come up with a proposal to ban it that hasn't
> generated overwhelming opposition from the amateur community.

Not true ... nobody has been able to make a proposal without being
shouted down by a bunch of AM and ESSB zealots.  Most HF users
want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for
communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned.  Unfortunately,
certain special interest groups continue to drive the debate.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
> Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 10:32 AM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: S Sacco <[hidden email]>
>
> >We're not broadcasters, we're communicators.
>
> That's true. But there are all sorts of communication!
>
> >That extra frequency response takes away from the spectrum available
> >for our fellow Amateurs.
>
> Hold that thought....
>
> >Don't even get me started on that "ESSB" stuff...and why is AM even
> >LEGAL anymore, anyway?
>
> It's legal for two reasons:
>
> 1) A considerable number of hams like it and use it.
>
> 2) No one has come up with a proposal to ban it that hasn't generated
> overwhelming opposition from the amateur community.
>
> "Ban AM" (particularly from the HF amateur bands) proposals
> have popped
> up from time to time since before I became a ham 40 years ago. Always
> the same basic reason: AM is too wide.
>
> Now about "tak[ing] away from the spectrum available for our fellow
> Amateurs" - if using the minimum amount of spectrum is the issue, why
> are any modes wider than a few hundred Hz allowed? Ten CW or
> PSK31 QSOs
> can fit in the space of one SSB QSO, so why is SSB still allowed?
>
> 73 de Jim, N2EY
>
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[N2EY]

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]>

> Most HF users
>want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for
>communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned.

On what information do you make this claim?

73 de Jim, N2EY
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[Doug Faunt N6TQS [phone]]

   Date: Mon, 05 May 2008 12:00:51 -0400
   From: [hidden email]

   -----Original Message-----
   From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]>

   > Most HF users
   >want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for
   >communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned.

   On what information do you make this claim?

I suspect the truth is most amateur HF users don't care.  We have
freedom of religion, so you can use emacs or vi, wide bandwidth 'phone
or narrow, RTTY or PSK31, Windows or Linux, etc.

73, doug



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[Darwin, Keith]

-----Original Message-----
From:  Joe Subich, W4TV

Most HF users want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required
for communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned.
--------------------------

Oh really?  Well, I guess I'm not part of "most" then.  I'm a CW op but
I'm thrilled these other modes exist to add variety and spice to the
hobby.

I think it makes a lot of sense (a LOT) to say narrow bandwidth signals
at the low end of the band, wide signals at the top, mids in the middle.
If someone wants to run ESSB at 5 KHz, that's fine, we'll allocate some
space at the high end of the band so they can play & have fun.

- Keith N1AS -
- K3 711 -
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[Ian Maude]

Darwin, Keith wrote:
> I think it makes a lot of sense (a LOT) to say narrow bandwidth signals
> at the low end of the band, wide signals at the top, mids in the middle.
> If someone wants to run ESSB at 5 KHz, that's fine, we'll allocate some
> space at the high end of the band so they can play & have fun.
>  
Good idea, give them 5kHz :-)

Sorry, I could not resist!

73 Ian

--

Ian J Maude, G0VGS
SysOp GB7MBC DX Cluster
Member RSGB, GQRP
K2 #4044 |K3 #455

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[Brian Lloyd-6]

On May 5, 2008, at 1:35 AM, G4ILO wrote:

> Mike Scott-7 wrote:
>>
>> I am surprised to hear that people don't like the extra bandwidth  
>> in the
>> audio response in the K3.
>>
> Because people use their radios in different ways. Some of us don't  
> want to
> waste energy generating frequencies that add nothing to the ability  
> to be
> heard when signals are weak. We don't use SSB to have "armchair  
> copy" chats
> using hi-fi speakers.
>
> Nobody is asking that improved low frequency response should be  
> taken away,
> just that it should be made an option. I'm not sure that the range of
> adjustment provided by TX EQ is great enough to restore the audio to  
> the way
> it was before.

I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here. There  
really is no problem. A SSB transmitter is just a linear translator  
that moves your baseband signal (audio in this case) up into the RF  
spectrum where you want it. When you mix to translate the signal  
somehow you need to get rid of the image. That means either filtering  
it out (filter-type SSB generator) or cancel it out (I/Q type SSB  
generator). Regardless, it doesn't matter whether you provide the  
bandwidth shaping at baseband or after your first mixer. DSP at  
baseband, DSP at the first IF, or a crystal filter at first IF or  
second IF doesn't matter. Any will solve the problem for you.

I think Elecraft has already thought this out.

Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such  
thing as analog. ;-)

Claude Shannon for President.

Brian Lloyd
Granite Bay Montessori School          9330 Sierra College Bl
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com          Roseville, CA 95661
+1.916.367.2131 (voice)                +1.791.912.8170 (fax)

PGP key ID:          12095C52A32A1B6C
PGP key fingerprint: 3B1D BA11 4913 3254 B6E0  CC09 1209 5C52 A32A 1B6C




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[KK7P]

> I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here.

Just different wavelengths of the same thing, Brian.  And if you are
fast enough and in the right direction, you can shift either to the
other, can't you?

> Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such
> thing as analog. ;-)

But are the little quanta-thingies particles or waves?

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[Bob Serwy]

I do not transmit AM or ESSB and I do not want it baned.


Bob Serwy - N9RS

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, May 05, 2008 11:01 AM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Bass in audio is good

-----Original Message-----
From: Joe Subich, W4TV <[hidden email]>

> Most HF users
>want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for
>communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned.

On what information do you make this claim?

73 de Jim, N2EY
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[Brian Lloyd-6]

On May 5, 2008, at 9:47 AM, Lyle Johnson wrote:

>> I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here.
>
> Just different wavelengths of the same thing, Brian.

Well, not quite. It doesn't get to be the same thing until AFTER the  
vibrational energy in the bonds is reemitted as photons.

And while we are on the subject, remember:

1. You can't win;

2. you can't break even;

3. you can't even get out of the game.

> And if you are fast enough and in the right direction, you can shift  
> either to the other, can't you?

All the time. It is how I retain my equilibrium.

>> Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no  
>> such thing as analog. ;-)
>
> But are the little quanta-thingies particles or waves?

Yes.

Richard Feynman for President, Claude Shannon for Vice President.


Brian Lloyd
Granite Bay Montessori School          9330 Sierra College Bl
brian AT gbmontessori DOT com          Roseville, CA 95661
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[ab2tc]

I don't think there is any doubt that Elecraft will not satisfy everybody until the transmit bandwidth is made fully customizable, just like the receiver. I understand that this is also Elecraft's intention. It would seem to make sense to have a CONFIG option that works just like the hi/lo cut for the receiver. With suitable limits for the settings there would be no need for a special ESSB "mode". In my book this ought to be relatively high on the priority list, just following straightening out the peak power issues. We already have a "world class" receiver here, but a little distance to go for a "world class" clean, powerful transmitter.

Knut - AB2TC

Lyle KK7P wrote

> I feel lots of heat but very little light on this subject here.

Just different wavelengths of the same thing, Brian.  And if you are
fast enough and in the right direction, you can shift either to the
other, can't you?

> Next we will talk about how it is ALL digital, that there is no such
> thing as analog. ;-)

But are the little quanta-thingies particles or waves?

73,

Lyle KK7P

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[LA4AMA]

<quote author="Joe Subich, W4TV-3">

> Most HF users want AM and ESSB (occupied bandwidth greater than required for
> communications quality - 2.6 to 2.8 KHz) banned.  Unfortunately,
> certain special interest groups continue to drive the debate.

Hi.

There are also a lot of radio amateurs that are concerned about the fact that such restrictions in bandwidth will harm the experimenting part and freedom within amateur radio. Radio amateurs has always been experimenting with different microphones etc. trying to make it sound as good as possible.
That is a part of what amateur radio is all about (for some). Implementing strict commercial bandwidth limitations within amateur radio is not a good idea.
My view is that as long as we try to make our transmitted signals as "clean" and splatter-free as possible there should be no problems.

When i tune across the bands I see a lot of distorted splatter stations on the spectrum scope on my IC-756pro3, especially on 20m. This is because a lot of radio amateurs use way too much microphone gain (high ALC-action) and/or compression/processing resulting in very wide occupied transmitter bandwidth. This is also consistent with the findings of SM5BSZ, Leif Asbrink. Check his articles here:
http://www.nitehawk.com/sm5bsz/dynrange/alc.htm


wide splatter station on 20m

My experience is that all these splatter stations are a lot bigger problem than if someone transmits with 3,0kHz or 4,0kHz in SSB. If one shall focus on bandwidth, one must go for the area where something should be done. Maybe a lot more education is needed for new radio amateurs (during licensing) regarding ALC-settings and checking transmitted signals on a spectrum scope to avoid splatter.

Some improvements has been done in recent years since many radios now uses Digital Phase Shift Network modulation in SSB (DPSN). This also gives better opposite sideband suppression. The transmitted signals are more "brick wall" than on some older equiptment I think.

Going from 2,8kHz to 4,0kHz TX bandwidth on the Omni VII does not create a very wide signal as long as it is clean and not distorted. Too much ALC-action will create splatter regardless of IF-filter bandwidth.


the Omni VII with 4kHz SSB TX

There are also facts like some radio amateurs have problems with hearing loss, cutting away the audio to a narrow range (200-2800Hz) will make it difficult to read for some people. The area between 100Hz and 4kHz are the most important for the human ear. This can be confirmed by several scientists working with speech intelligibility research :
http://www.polycom.com/common/documents/whitepapers/effect_of_bandwidth_on_speech_intelligibility_2.pdf

That is why I hope such bandwidth limitations within amateur radio never will be implemented.

Best regards
LA4AMA
Roar

[Geoffrey Mackenzie-Kennedy]

Ian J Maude <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Good idea, give them 5kHz :-)
>
> Sorry, I could not resist!

I would have thought that the use of ESSB would come close to breaking the
rules on Emission Standards as imposed by some regulators, e.g. FCC Amateur
Rules section 97.307 which says in part  'No amateur station transmission
shall occupy more bandwidth than necessary for the information rate and
emission type being transmitted, in accordance with good amateur practice'.
'Information rate' is I suppose the let-out.

73,
Geoff
GM4ESD

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