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Begali and K2

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Rich McCabe

Begali and K2

I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was thinking
about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro III so I can
run mode B.

I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html

This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the CW
Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does this apply
to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?

Thanks and 73,

Rich
kd0zv

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David F. Reed

Re: Begali and K2

Rich,

my solution was to order the silver contact replacement set from Begali
instead, for the sake of simplicity.
It took a while for the parts to arrive, but they installed very easily,
and work great.

The theory is correct as far as my experience goes.

However, I am an amateur, not a pro, so you might get differing opinions.

73 de Dave, W5SV

Rich McCabe wrote:

>
> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was
> thinking about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro
> III so I can run mode B.
>
> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>
> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the
> CW Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does
> this apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?
>
> Thanks and 73,
>
> Rich
> kd0zv

Bob Nielsen

Re: Begali and K2

In reply to this post by Rich McCabe

On Mar 20, 2006, at 2:32 PM, Rich McCabe wrote:

>
> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was
> thinking about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my
> Pro III so I can run mode B.
>
> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>
> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the
> the CW Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers.
> Does this apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole
> theory?
>

I have used a Begali Simplex with my K2 for probably a few thousand
contacts and have never noticed any problems (nor with my TS-570D
either).

73,
Bob, N7XY

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Rich McCabe

Re: Begali and K2

In reply to this post by David F. Reed

Thanks Dave.

I never would have guessed. I read that Begali has changed the contact
material to help this. My Signature came last week so I hope it would be
current. I hate the thought of ordering parts from Begali as it takes so
long to get anything. Yes, I am impatient !! Heck, it takes a while to get
an email response from his Daughter :)

I see on their site they have a gold contact option, but did not see
anything about silver. I dont know what material I have but its gold in
color. The one contact on the arm appears pressed in and the other side is
in the adjusting screw. Did your replacement include new arms and adjusting
screws?

73,

Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "David F. Reed" <[hidden email]>
To: "Rich McCabe" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2

> Rich,
>
> my solution was to order the silver contact replacement set from Begali
> instead, for the sake of simplicity.
> It took a while for the parts to arrive, but they installed very easily,
> and work great.
>
> The theory is correct as far as my experience goes.
>
> However, I am an amateur, not a pro, so you might get differing opinions.
>
> 73 de Dave, W5SV
>
> Rich McCabe wrote:
>
>>
>> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was thinking
>> about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro III so I
>> can run mode B.
>>
>> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
>> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>>
>> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the CW
>> Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does this
>> apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?
>>
>> Thanks and 73,
>>
>> Rich
>> kd0zv
>
>

Dan Barker

RE: Begali and K2

I kept hoping someone who knew would jump in here, but nobody has. So, I'll
do it. The K2 doesn't use the same pin for dit and dah. That's how A-DET
works, on separate pins.

The K1 does use the dual-voltage scheme, and I have no idea about the Kixie.

However, the K2 will not care one whit.

Dan / WG4S / K2 #2456

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Vic K2VCO

Re: Begali and K2

In reply to this post by Rich McCabe

Rich McCabe wrote:

>
> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was
> thinking about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro
> III so I can run mode B.
>
> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>
> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the CW
> Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does this
> apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?

To a smaller extent, yes it does. Here's an edited excerpt from a
review of the Magnetic Pro (very similar to the Signature) that I wrote
for eHam:

The contact alloy behaves almost like a semiconductor, maintaining a
constant forward voltage drop over a range of current. Measuring the
contact resistance with an ohmmeter gives 'funny' readings; it's more
interesting if your meter has a diode voltage drop range, such as my
Fluke 79.

Anyway, the result of this is that the key does not work properly with
keyers like Winkey, which use a single PIC input and voltage divider to
distinguish dots and dashes. Microham has actually developed an
interface to solve this problem. More broadly, however, the contact
resistance behavior causes intermittent problems with other keyers that
do use separate PIC inputs, such as the Logikey K3 and the internal
keyers in my Elecraft K2 and TS850s. This problem can be described as an
intermittent 'misfire', in which there is a delay before dot or dash
generation starts after the contacts are closed. I believe that the
delay is caused by the time constant of the bypass capacitors and the
variable contact resistance.

The Microham device is reported to help with Winkey, but does not help
with the Logikey K3 (I tried it). The delay seems to appear more
frequently the more heavily you use the paddle, which I suspect has to
do with the thickness of an oxide layer that develops on the contacts.
If you let it sit for a while, the frequency of the problem decreases.

The Begali keys can be ordered with gold contacts, which I recommend.
It's possible to order replacement parts, but since the contacts are
part of the movable arms, the cost of the replacement kit for my key was
$78. I bit the bullet and ordered the kit; hopefully it will solve the
problem. In the meantime, I'm using my old Bencher.

Since you already have the key, I suggest that you try it and see how it
works. Some people don't report a problem, in my opinion because they
don't beat on it enough.
--
73,
Vic, K2VCO
Fresno CA
http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
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Rich McCabe

Re: Begali and K2

Thanks Vic,

Thats great info although most of it over my head :)

The dilema I have now is I was considering ordering the new MicroHam USB
keyer. It sounds like this might not be a good solution right now. To make
things worse, I really am a novice at CW. I never have been very fast at it
although I used to enjoy it. My last CW contact was....... uh about 17 years
ago. Never used anything but a straight key.

So what do you think. I buy a Begali signature so now I really have to use
it !! Bold move I know, but that usually works for me.

Have you heard anything about the new material that Begali might be using
(according to MicroHam)? I really thought a clean electrical contact was
just that. Couldnt get any better !

I would like to be able to use the key on my Pro III as well but it does not
support Mode B. For whatever reason I do better with that mode.

73,

Rich
kd0zv

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
To: "Rich McCabe" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2

> Rich McCabe wrote:
>>
>> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was thinking
>> about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro III so I
>> can run mode B.
>>
>> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
>> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>>
>> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the CW
>> Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does this
>> apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?
>
> To a smaller extent, yes it does. Here's an edited excerpt from a review
> of the Magnetic Pro (very similar to the Signature) that I wrote for eHam:
>
> The contact alloy behaves almost like a semiconductor, maintaining a
> constant forward voltage drop over a range of current. Measuring the
> contact resistance with an ohmmeter gives 'funny' readings; it's more
> interesting if your meter has a diode voltage drop range, such as my Fluke
> 79.
>
> Anyway, the result of this is that the key does not work properly with
> keyers like Winkey, which use a single PIC input and voltage divider to
> distinguish dots and dashes. Microham has actually developed an interface
> to solve this problem. More broadly, however, the contact resistance
> behavior causes intermittent problems with other keyers that do use
> separate PIC inputs, such as the Logikey K3 and the internal keyers in my
> Elecraft K2 and TS850s. This problem can be described as an intermittent
> 'misfire', in which there is a delay before dot or dash generation starts
> after the contacts are closed. I believe that the delay is caused by the
> time constant of the bypass capacitors and the variable contact
> resistance.
>
> The Microham device is reported to help with Winkey, but does not help
> with the Logikey K3 (I tried it). The delay seems to appear more
> frequently the more heavily you use the paddle, which I suspect has to do
> with the thickness of an oxide layer that develops on the contacts. If you
> let it sit for a while, the frequency of the problem decreases.
>
> The Begali keys can be ordered with gold contacts, which I recommend. It's
> possible to order replacement parts, but since the contacts are part of
> the movable arms, the cost of the replacement kit for my key was $78. I
> bit the bullet and ordered the kit; hopefully it will solve the problem.
> In the meantime, I'm using my old Bencher.
>
> Since you already have the key, I suggest that you try it and see how it
> works. Some people don't report a problem, in my opinion because they
> don't beat on it enough.
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
>

ROBERT CARROLL-4

RE: Begali and K2

Is it true that the Pro III does not support Curtis Mode B? I have heard
90% of cw devotees use Mode B!

Bob W2WG

-----Original Message-----
From: elecraft-bounces+w2wg=[hidden email]
[mailto:elecraft-bounces+w2wg=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Rich
McCabe
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 6:28 PM
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2

Thanks Vic,

Thats great info although most of it over my head :)

The dilema I have now is I was considering ordering the new MicroHam USB
keyer. It sounds like this might not be a good solution right now. To make
things worse, I really am a novice at CW. I never have been very fast at it
although I used to enjoy it. My last CW contact was....... uh about 17 years

ago. Never used anything but a straight key.

So what do you think. I buy a Begali signature so now I really have to use
it !! Bold move I know, but that usually works for me.

Have you heard anything about the new material that Begali might be using
(according to MicroHam)? I really thought a clean electrical contact was
just that. Couldnt get any better !

I would like to be able to use the key on my Pro III as well but it does not

support Mode B. For whatever reason I do better with that mode.

73,

Rich
kd0zv

----- Original Message -----
From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
To: "Rich McCabe" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2

> Rich McCabe wrote:
>>
>> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was thinking

>> about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro III so I
>> can run mode B.
>>
>> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
>> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>>
>> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the CW
>> Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does this
>> apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?
>
> To a smaller extent, yes it does. Here's an edited excerpt from a review
> of the Magnetic Pro (very similar to the Signature) that I wrote for eHam:
>
> The contact alloy behaves almost like a semiconductor, maintaining a
> constant forward voltage drop over a range of current. Measuring the
> contact resistance with an ohmmeter gives 'funny' readings; it's more
> interesting if your meter has a diode voltage drop range, such as my Fluke

> 79.
>
> Anyway, the result of this is that the key does not work properly with
> keyers like Winkey, which use a single PIC input and voltage divider to
> distinguish dots and dashes. Microham has actually developed an interface
> to solve this problem. More broadly, however, the contact resistance
> behavior causes intermittent problems with other keyers that do use
> separate PIC inputs, such as the Logikey K3 and the internal keyers in my
> Elecraft K2 and TS850s. This problem can be described as an intermittent
> 'misfire', in which there is a delay before dot or dash generation starts
> after the contacts are closed. I believe that the delay is caused by the
> time constant of the bypass capacitors and the variable contact
> resistance.
>
> The Microham device is reported to help with Winkey, but does not help
> with the Logikey K3 (I tried it). The delay seems to appear more
> frequently the more heavily you use the paddle, which I suspect has to do
> with the thickness of an oxide layer that develops on the contacts. If you

> let it sit for a while, the frequency of the problem decreases.
>
> The Begali keys can be ordered with gold contacts, which I recommend. It's

> possible to order replacement parts, but since the contacts are part of
> the movable arms, the cost of the replacement kit for my key was $78. I
> bit the bullet and ordered the kit; hopefully it will solve the problem.
> In the meantime, I'm using my old Bencher.
>
> Since you already have the key, I suggest that you try it and see how it
> works. Some people don't report a problem, in my opinion because they
> don't beat on it enough.
> --
> 73,
> Vic, K2VCO
> Fresno CA
> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
>

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Rich McCabe

Re: Begali and K2

I am afraid its true !

A only. Not to mention it does not show the keyer speed. Not half the keyer
of the K2 !

Rich

----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT CARROLL" <[hidden email]>
To: "'Rich McCabe'" <[hidden email]>
Cc: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Begali and K2

> Is it true that the Pro III does not support Curtis Mode B? I have heard
> 90% of cw devotees use Mode B!
>
> Bob W2WG
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: elecraft-bounces+w2wg=[hidden email]
> [mailto:elecraft-bounces+w2wg=[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Rich
> McCabe
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 6:28 PM
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2
>
> Thanks Vic,
>
> Thats great info although most of it over my head :)
>
> The dilema I have now is I was considering ordering the new MicroHam USB
> keyer. It sounds like this might not be a good solution right now. To
> make
> things worse, I really am a novice at CW. I never have been very fast at
> it
> although I used to enjoy it. My last CW contact was....... uh about 17
> years
>
> ago. Never used anything but a straight key.
>
> So what do you think. I buy a Begali signature so now I really have to use
> it !! Bold move I know, but that usually works for me.
>
> Have you heard anything about the new material that Begali might be using
> (according to MicroHam)? I really thought a clean electrical contact was
> just that. Couldnt get any better !
>
> I would like to be able to use the key on my Pro III as well but it does
> not
>
> support Mode B. For whatever reason I do better with that mode.
>
> 73,
>
> Rich
> kd0zv
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Vic K2VCO" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Rich McCabe" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, March 20, 2006 5:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2
>
>
>> Rich McCabe wrote:
>>>
>>> I just bought a new Begali Signature to go with my K2/100. I was
>>> thinking
>
>>> about buying a MicroHam/K1EL USB CW keyer to work with my Pro III so I
>>> can run mode B.
>>>
>>> I just ran into this article about a debouncer and the Begali keys.
>>> http://www.microham-usa.com/Products/Begali.html
>>>
>>> This seems pretty wild to me, but thought I would toss it out the the CW
>>> Pros ! It seems the problem is related to PIC based keyers. Does this
>>> apply to the K2 and what do you think about the whole theory?
>>
>> To a smaller extent, yes it does. Here's an edited excerpt from a review
>> of the Magnetic Pro (very similar to the Signature) that I wrote for
>> eHam:
>>
>> The contact alloy behaves almost like a semiconductor, maintaining a
>> constant forward voltage drop over a range of current. Measuring the
>> contact resistance with an ohmmeter gives 'funny' readings; it's more
>> interesting if your meter has a diode voltage drop range, such as my
>> Fluke
>
>> 79.
>>
>> Anyway, the result of this is that the key does not work properly with
>> keyers like Winkey, which use a single PIC input and voltage divider to
>> distinguish dots and dashes. Microham has actually developed an interface
>> to solve this problem. More broadly, however, the contact resistance
>> behavior causes intermittent problems with other keyers that do use
>> separate PIC inputs, such as the Logikey K3 and the internal keyers in my
>> Elecraft K2 and TS850s. This problem can be described as an intermittent
>> 'misfire', in which there is a delay before dot or dash generation starts
>> after the contacts are closed. I believe that the delay is caused by the
>> time constant of the bypass capacitors and the variable contact
>> resistance.
>>
>> The Microham device is reported to help with Winkey, but does not help
>> with the Logikey K3 (I tried it). The delay seems to appear more
>> frequently the more heavily you use the paddle, which I suspect has to do
>> with the thickness of an oxide layer that develops on the contacts. If
>> you
>
>> let it sit for a while, the frequency of the problem decreases.
>>
>> The Begali keys can be ordered with gold contacts, which I recommend.
>> It's
>
>> possible to order replacement parts, but since the contacts are part of
>> the movable arms, the cost of the replacement kit for my key was $78. I
>> bit the bullet and ordered the kit; hopefully it will solve the problem.
>> In the meantime, I'm using my old Bencher.
>>
>> Since you already have the key, I suggest that you try it and see how it
>> works. Some people don't report a problem, in my opinion because they
>> don't beat on it enough.
>> --
>> 73,
>> Vic, K2VCO
>> Fresno CA
>> http://www.qsl.net/k2vco
>>
>
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>
>
>

k6dgw

Re: Begali and K2

In reply to this post by ROBERT CARROLL-4

ROBERT CARROLL wrote:
> Is it true that the Pro III does not support Curtis Mode B? I have heard
> 90% of cw devotees use Mode B!
>
> Bob W2WG

Hmmm ...

10% of the male population is left-handed, 10% of the general population
can sleep at-will, 10% of the male population has moderate to severe
color-blindness, and now I hear that 10% of the amateur population
(nearly all male), who actually use CW and a keyer, use Mode A.

I'm male, I'm left-handed, I sleep at-will (often in the shower), I am
totally colorblind (as in monochrome), I stick to CW almost exclusively,
and I use Mode A. What are the odds?

I heard somewhere (maybe here) that Mode B was a design mistake in the
first iambic keyer(s). Maybe that's just an urban legend. Personally,
Mode B is a disaster for me if communicating anything other than "IMI"
is the goal.

Fred K6DGW
Auburn CA CM98lw
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David F. Reed

Re: Begali follow up.

In reply to this post by Rich McCabe

Bob W2WG wrote:

>Did you have the problem with the super duper contacts?
>
No problems with the wazoo contacts; it works just fine.

> I have a Winkeyer
>and am thinking about getting the Begali. How do you like the Begali
>compared to other paddles?
>
It is one of my favorites, if I want to carry a bit more when traveling;
it sees a lot of use in the shack.

However, I do use my KX1 in the hammock portable mode with the Elecraft
paddle, and I occasionally use that same paddle quite happily with my K2
using the Elecraft adapter for it; very convenient, simple, and nice. I
guess I like the extremes they represent (high / low cost, technology,
and so on).

> Did you get the wide or standard base.
>
Since mine is the Traveler Light, the "spreading arms" stabilization.

>I slap the paddles around a little, so the standard base might not be the best for me.
>
>
I am fairly used to iambic keying and do not slap it around, so you may
experience it differently than I; I will say it is my favorite paddle
for fixed operation use, and I have a significant collection; its the
one in front of my IC-7800.

Rich McCabe wrote:

> I never would have guessed. I read that Begali has changed the contact
> material to help this. My Signature came last week so I hope it would
> be current. I hate the thought of ordering parts from Begali as it
> takes so long to get anything. Yes, I am impatient !! Heck, it takes
> a while to get an email response from his Daughter :)
>
> I see on their site they have a gold contact option, but did not see
> anything about silver.

You are correct; I went back and checked my order, and indeed, they were
gold. Funny how much I can forget in 3 months.

> I dont know what material I have but its gold in color.

I realize it will take a while to get an answer, but you might ask them
which it came with; I suspect not gold, as they require a quote for
ordering the parts separately from the original order.

> The one contact on the arm appears pressed in and the other side is in
> the adjusting screw. Did your replacement include new arms and
> adjusting screws?

I should clarify; I am using the Begali Traveler; the replacements parts
were new arms and adjusting screws.

>
> 73,
>
> Rich

73 de W5SV, Dave
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Rich McCabe

Re: Begali and K2

In reply to this post by Rich McCabe

Well looks like I dont have anything to worry about according to Begali.

<snip>

Rich,
your key have a gold contacts and didn't the bounces phenomena.
I am sure that with this contacts you having a good work,same at all others
keys with gold
contacts and MicroHam keyer.
thanks & 73, Piero

</snip>

73,

Rich
kd0zv

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Paul Heller-2

Re: Begali and K2

In reply to this post by Vic K2VCO

Vic K2VCO wrote:
> keyers in my Elecraft K2 and TS850s. This problem can be described as
> an intermittent 'misfire', in which there is a delay before dot or
> dash generation starts after the contacts are closed.
Aha (a light goes on ...). I've had a Begali Signature for about a
year, and from time to time I've noticed this, at least with dots when
using the Begali with a Microkeyer. My theory was that the contact
might be dirty, since it felt like the dots were reluctant to start at
random times. My Profi doesn't do this - now I understand why. Time
to send a note to Piero about new contacts, I guess ...

/Paul
W3PH

--

Paul Heller
[hidden email]

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Rich McCabe

Re: Begali and K2

Paul,

My signature did come with the gold contacts and work great !

I guess your choice is buying contacts from Piero which are not going to be
cheap and appear to be a time consuming install (not sure) or one of
MicroHams debouncer cables.

I have the debouncer cable here but think I am going to send it back. Not
sure what I think about a "cable" that requires a watch battery :)

73,

Rich
kd0zv

----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Heller" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 6:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Begali and K2

> Vic K2VCO wrote:
>> keyers in my Elecraft K2 and TS850s. This problem can be described as an
>> intermittent 'misfire', in which there is a delay before dot or dash
>> generation starts after the contacts are closed.
> Aha (a light goes on ...). I've had a Begali Signature for about a year,
> and from time to time I've noticed this, at least with dots when using the
> Begali with a Microkeyer. My theory was that the contact might be dirty,
> since it felt like the dots were reluctant to start at random times. My
> Profi doesn't do this - now I understand why. Time to send a note to
> Piero about new contacts, I guess ...
>
> /Paul
> W3PH
>
> --
>
> Paul Heller
> [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Post to: [hidden email]
> You must be a subscriber to post to the list.
> Subscriber Info (Addr. Change, sub, unsub etc.):
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/subscribers.htm
> Elecraft web page: http://www.elecraft.com
>