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Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

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Elecraft mailing list

Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
battery packs.

Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time being
charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger.
Nonetheless, the battery pack exploded with an incredible force, blowing
items off my workbench within 2 feet of the explosion. The burn area on
my workbench exceeds 12 inches. If I hadn't been wearing safety
glasses, I'm sure my eyes would have been badly affected. The sound
level was at least equal to a 44 magnum. My facial hair has been burned
and there are numerous particles embedded in my skin, walls and table.
The furthest piece, embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the
ignition point. About 2 ounces of C4 would perform about the same.

I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket which
protected my body very well. I was only 18 inches from the pack when it
exploded.

I never realized or expected such a thing to happen from a commercially
produced battery pack. I guess I will weld together a steel blast-proof
box should I have nerve enough to ever use these battery packs again.

73, Doug -- K0DXV
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Nick Kemp

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

One thing available and recommended are fireproof/resistant envelopes to
put LI-Io batteries into while charging. Maybe good practice it to
charge them outside at least the first few times.

Good to hear that you were not injured.

Nick
N1KMP

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Ben Hall-2

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On 12/10/2014 5:38 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time being
> charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger.
> Nonetheless, the battery pack exploded with an incredible force, blowing
> items off my workbench within 2 feet of the explosion. The burn area on

Glad you were not seriously hurt!

What brand/model was it?

thanks and 73,
ben, kd5byb

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Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Nick Kemp

Have to admit, outside of actually combat, that was the scariest thing
I've ever experienced. The battery was a generic, Chinese manufactured,
lithium-Ion pack made up of 3 main, but unmarked, cells, wrapped in a
fairly tough flexible, plastic wrap. A little forensics leads me to
think the flexible outer shell probably absorbed some the initial blast
and helped contain the shrapnel - or at least slow it down. I shutter
to think what would have happened had it had exploded inside the steel
case of of the equipment it was meant for. I bought it from one of the
many vendors on ebay - I couldn't really say which one. I use these in
many different projects. They're very convenient. The charger is a
Tenergy Universal Lithium-Ion Smart Charger. I've used it 100's of
times without a problem. I think this was just a couple of defective
cells. Or, perhaps bad wiring.

All I can say is the explosion was far beyond anything I've ever heard
of happening with bad Li-Io cells. If it had been inside the steel
case, it would have been a hand grenade.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/10/2014 5:15 PM, Nick Kemp wrote:

> One thing available and recommended are fireproof/resistant envelopes
> to put LI-Io batteries into while charging. Maybe good practice it to
> charge them outside at least the first few times.
>
> Good to hear that you were not injured.
>
> Nick
> N1KMP
>
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David Orman

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I'm glad to hear you are mostly OK. Very sorry to hear this happened. I use
LiPo for R/C aircraft/helicopters, and charge them outside on the back
patio clear of anything inside those bags for this very reason. I've had a
couple grenade (you'd think figuratively, but as you described, literally)
after collisions.

For radio use, I switched to LiFe packs which seem to be much less
volatile, and the discharge voltage curve is more conducive for radio use.
You'll also get more cycles out of them. Not sure if you use your LiPo for
radio, but I thought I'd offer that suggestion if you do. They have
slightly less capacity, but with my KX3, I get a day of RX from a 4200mAh
LiFe battery, and 2 hours of solid 10W output; much more when using
something like SSB that isn't pulling the full 2A or so and isn't 100% duty
cycle.

Again, glad to hear you're OK.

David - K5DJO

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft <
[hidden email]> wrote:

> Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
> battery packs.
>
> Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time being
> charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger. Nonetheless,
> the battery pack exploded with an incredible force, blowing items off my
> workbench within 2 feet of the explosion. The burn area on my workbench
> exceeds 12 inches. If I hadn't been wearing safety glasses, I'm sure my
> eyes would have been badly affected. The sound level was at least equal to
> a 44 magnum. My facial hair has been burned and there are numerous
> particles embedded in my skin, walls and table. The furthest piece,
> embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the ignition point. About 2
> ounces of C4 would perform about the same.
>
> I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket which
> protected my body very well. I was only 18 inches from the pack when it
> exploded.
>
> I never realized or expected such a thing to happen from a commercially
> produced battery pack. I guess I will weld together a steel blast-proof
> box should I have nerve enough to ever use these battery packs again.
>
> 73, Doug -- K0DXV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

I said 12 volt, but it was actually 11.1 volt. I use this type for the
KX3, Quad-copters and driving computerized telescopes. I'm not familiar
with LiFe. I'll have to look into them. I had no idea they could be so
volatile! If I did, I sure has heck wouldn't have been sitting right in
front of it on the bench. The XYL has just banned them from the house.
Worse yet, it ruptured my right ear drum.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/10/2014 5:40 PM, David Orman wrote:

> I'm glad to hear you are mostly OK. Very sorry to hear this happened.
> I use LiPo for R/C aircraft/helicopters, and charge them outside on
> the back patio clear of anything inside those bags for this very
> reason. I've had a couple grenade (you'd think figuratively, but as
> you described, literally) after collisions.
>
> For radio use, I switched to LiFe packs which seem to be much less
> volatile, and the discharge voltage curve is more conducive for radio
> use. You'll also get more cycles out of them. Not sure if you use your
> LiPo for radio, but I thought I'd offer that suggestion if you do.
> They have slightly less capacity, but with my KX3, I get a day of RX
> from a 4200mAh LiFe battery, and 2 hours of solid 10W output; much
> more when using something like SSB that isn't pulling the full 2A or
> so and isn't 100% duty cycle.
>
> Again, glad to hear you're OK.
>
> David - K5DJO
>
> On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft
> <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around
> Lithium-Ion battery packs.
>
> Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time
> being charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger.
> Nonetheless, the battery pack exploded with an incredible force,
> blowing items off my workbench within 2 feet of the explosion.
> The burn area on my workbench exceeds 12 inches. If I hadn't been
> wearing safety glasses, I'm sure my eyes would have been badly
> affected. The sound level was at least equal to a 44 magnum. My
> facial hair has been burned and there are numerous particles
> embedded in my skin, walls and table. The furthest piece,
> embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the ignition point.
> About 2 ounces of C4 would perform about the same.
>
> I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket
> which protected my body very well. I was only 18 inches from the
> pack when it exploded.
>
> I never realized or expected such a thing to happen from a
> commercially produced battery pack. I guess I will weld together
> a steel blast-proof box should I have nerve enough to ever use
> these battery packs again.
>
> 73, Doug -- K0DXV
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
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> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
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> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>

Elecraft mailing list

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I too am very glad you escaped, as close as things were.

This helps explain why lithium batteries are not allowed in checked luggage on airplanes. If anybody is traveling with such batteries, be sure they are in your carry on luggage. I suspect luggage screeners are on the lookout for them.

There also are limits on how large and how many lithium batteries you are allowed as carry on, but my reading is that a normal KX3 user is not likely to be taking enough to hit the limits.

Check the DOT website for full details.

73 - Jim K8MR

-----Original Message-----
From: Doug Person via Elecraft <[hidden email]>
To: elecraft <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wed, Dec 10, 2014 6:40 pm
Subject: [Elecraft] Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
battery packs.

Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time being
charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger.
Nonetheless, the battery pack exploded with an incredible force, blowing
items off my workbench within 2 feet of the explosion. The burn area on
my workbench exceeds 12 inches. If I hadn't been wearing safety
glasses, I'm sure my eyes would have been badly affected. The sound
level was at least equal to a 44 magnum. My facial hair has been burned
and there are numerous particles embedded in my skin, walls and table.
The furthest piece, embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the
ignition point. About 2 ounces of C4 would perform about the same.

I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket which
protected my body very well. I was only 18 inches from the pack when it
exploded.

I never realized or expected such a thing to happen from a commercially
produced battery pack. I guess I will weld together a steel blast-proof
box should I have nerve enough to ever use these battery packs again.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

The more I read this, the more questions arise in my mind!
>> If I hadn't been wearing safety
glasses, <<
Granted, some people wears Safety Glasses when working on their work bench.
>> I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket which
protected my body very well. <<

A WELDING Jacket??! Ok! You're a Welder.

>> The furthest piece, embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the
ignition point. <<

Quite a powerful Explosion.
>> My facial hair has been burned
and there are numerous particles embedded in my skin, walls and table. <<
How deep into your skin were the fragments embedded?

Did you write this before or after your visit to the Emergency Room?

Sorry, but I find this kinda hard to digest.
((((73)))) Milverton. / W9MMS

From: Doug Person via Elecraft <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 5:38 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
battery packs.

Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time being
charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger.
Nonetheless, the battery pack exploded with an incredible force, blowing
items off my workbench within 2 feet of the explosion. The burn area on
my workbench exceeds 12 inches. If I hadn't been wearing safety
glasses, I'm sure my eyes would have been badly affected. The sound
level was at least equal to a 44 magnum. My facial hair has been burned
and there are numerous particles embedded in my skin, walls and table.
The furthest piece, embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the
ignition point. About 2 ounces of C4 would perform about the same.

I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket which
protected my body very well. I was only 18 inches from the pack when it
exploded.

I never realized or expected such a thing to happen from a commercially
produced battery pack. I guess I will weld together a steel blast-proof
box should I have nerve enough to ever use these battery packs again.

73, Doug -- K0DXV
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Elecraft mailing list

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

I used to fly Radio Controlled Helicopters and I was always wary of LiPObatteries and they have been know to catch fire and to possibly explode.

Never charge them unattended
Some would put them in a can to help contain them if they do catch fire.

From: Doug Person via Elecraft <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 6:38 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
battery packs.

Today I was charging a new 12 volt Li-Io battery pack. Fist time being
charged. I was using a specialized automatic Li-Io charger.
Nonetheless, the battery pack exploded with an incredible force, blowing
items off my workbench within 2 feet of the explosion. The burn area on
my workbench exceeds 12 inches. If I hadn't been wearing safety
glasses, I'm sure my eyes would have been badly affected. The sound
level was at least equal to a 44 magnum. My facial hair has been burned
and there are numerous particles embedded in my skin, walls and table.
The furthest piece, embedded in ceiling, is at least 10 feet from the
ignition point. About 2 ounces of C4 would perform about the same.

I consider myself lucky in that I was wearing my welding jacket which
protected my body very well. I was only 18 inches from the pack when it
exploded.

I never realized or expected such a thing to happen from a commercially
produced battery pack. I guess I will weld together a steel blast-proof
box should I have nerve enough to ever use these battery packs again.

73, Doug -- K0DXV
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Al Gulseth-2

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Glad you weren't hurt - whew! It might be a good idea to report your
experience to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. If your battery had a
defect there's a distinct possibility other batteries from the same lot or
manufacturer are defective also. Getting the CPSC involved might prevent
someone else from being injured - or worse.

There are downsides to packing more and more energy into smaller spaces.

73, Al

On Wed December 10 2014 6:39:25 pm Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:

> Have to admit, outside of actually combat, that was the scariest thing
> I've ever experienced. The battery was a generic, Chinese manufactured,
> lithium-Ion pack made up of 3 main, but unmarked, cells, wrapped in a
> fairly tough flexible, plastic wrap. A little forensics leads me to
> think the flexible outer shell probably absorbed some the initial blast
> and helped contain the shrapnel - or at least slow it down. I shutter
> to think what would have happened had it had exploded inside the steel
> case of of the equipment it was meant for. I bought it from one of the
> many vendors on ebay - I couldn't really say which one. I use these in
> many different projects. They're very convenient. The charger is a
> Tenergy Universal Lithium-Ion Smart Charger. I've used it 100's of
> times without a problem. I think this was just a couple of defective
> cells. Or, perhaps bad wiring.
>
> All I can say is the explosion was far beyond anything I've ever heard
> of happening with bad Li-Io cells. If it had been inside the steel
> case, it would have been a hand grenade.
>
> 73, Doug -- K0DXV
>
> On 12/10/2014 5:15 PM, Nick Kemp wrote:
> > One thing available and recommended are fireproof/resistant envelopes
> > to put LI-Io batteries into while charging. Maybe good practice it to
> > charge them outside at least the first few times.
> >
> > Good to hear that you were not injured.
> >
> > Nick
> > N1KMP
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> > Message delivered to [hidden email]
>
> ______________________________________________________________
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Jim Brown-10

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On Wed,12/10/2014 3:38 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
> battery packs.

All Li-Ion packs are not created equal. Charging rates depend upon
capacity, and proper Li-Ion packs have built-in protection modules.
Study batteryspace.com to get a handle how these things are built. This
company is "the American partner" of a small battery mfr in China. The
Chinese company manufactures the cells, the American company puts them
in packs with protection circuitry and suitable connectors, and does the
marketing.

My neighbor, W6GJB, bought one of their bigger LiFe 12V packs. Looks
quite solid.

73, Jim K9YC
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Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Which part? That my shop is a machine shop - or that Li-Io batteries
could potentially kill you?

> Sorry, but I find this kinda hard to digest.
> ((((73)))) Milverton. / W9MMS
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> **

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Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Jim Brown-10

Any chemists on-board? Curious as to what the exact chemical process is
that causes such a powerful state change. Hard to believe that something
so dangerous and volatile is inside so many things we carry around in
our pockets.

I guess my mistake was getting a pack that did not have any sort of
protection circuit in it. I don't recommend my personal method of
discovering the need for them! I was assuming the charger knew what it
was doing. Never will I trust that thing again.

73, Doug -- K0DXV

On 12/10/2014 6:44 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

> On Wed,12/10/2014 3:38 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
>> Just a quick note to affirm the need for caution around Lithium-Ion
>> battery packs.
>
> All Li-Ion packs are not created equal. Charging rates depend upon
> capacity, and proper Li-Ion packs have built-in protection modules.
> Study batteryspace.com to get a handle how these things are built.
> This company is "the American partner" of a small battery mfr in
> China. The Chinese company manufactures the cells, the American
> company puts them in packs with protection circuitry and suitable
> connectors, and does the marketing.
>
> My neighbor, W6GJB, bought one of their bigger LiFe 12V packs. Looks
> quite solid.
>
> 73, Jim K9YC
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> Message delivered to [hidden email]
>

Dick Dickinson

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

.film at 11..?

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k6dgw

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

On 12/10/2014 6:00 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> Any chemists on-board? Curious as to what the exact chemical process is
> that causes such a powerful state change. Hard to believe that something
> so dangerous and volatile is inside so many things we carry around in
> our pockets.

Charging [or discharging] batteries creates heat. Most everything
[except fruitcake] will eventually become reactive in ways we don't
enjoy if you create enough heat. Things early in the first column of
the periodic table don't require much heat. Fruitcake never explodes.

I've discovered a fundamental law:

if(isabattery(the_thing) && isfromchina(source_of_the_thing))
{
dontbuyit();
}

My first experience with batteries-from-China occurred when I married my
wife in 1967. A wedding gift was a wall clock. We unpacked it in our
new apartment in So. Houston, installed the included Chinese 1.5V
carbon-zinc dry cell, and hung it on the wall. About 2 months later,
she asked me, "What's that running down the wall from the clock?" The
battery was a "Flying Bomb" brand, I'm not making this up, which should
have been a clue, alas ... I was newly married and focused on other things.

It's like PL-259's ... if it's not Amphenol, don't waste your money,
although so far, cheap PL-259's do not have a record of exploding. I
learned during my engineering career that quality is built-in by the
manufacturing process. You may find a good Chinese battery, but it may
take a few explosions/fires before you do.

I'm glad he's OK.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

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Millerhill

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Elecraft mailing list

Life-PO is the only way to go

Sent from Samsung tablet.

-------- Original message --------
From: Fred Jensen <[hidden email]>
Date: 12/10/2014 21:42 (GMT-05:00)
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

On 12/10/2014 6:00 PM, Doug Person via Elecraft wrote:
> Any chemists on-board? Curious as to what the exact chemical process is
> that causes such a powerful state change. Hard to believe that something
> so dangerous and volatile is inside so many things we carry around in
> our pockets.

Charging [or discharging] batteries creates heat. Most everything
[except fruitcake] will eventually become reactive in ways we don't
enjoy if you create enough heat. Things early in the first column of
the periodic table don't require much heat. Fruitcake never explodes.

I've discovered a fundamental law:

if(isabattery(the_thing) && isfromchina(source_of_the_thing))
{
dontbuyit();
}

My first experience with batteries-from-China occurred when I married my
wife in 1967. A wedding gift was a wall clock. We unpacked it in our
new apartment in So. Houston, installed the included Chinese 1.5V
carbon-zinc dry cell, and hung it on the wall. About 2 months later,
she asked me, "What's that running down the wall from the clock?" The
battery was a "Flying Bomb" brand, I'm not making this up, which should
have been a clue, alas ... I was newly married and focused on other things.

It's like PL-259's ... if it's not Amphenol, don't waste your money,
although so far, cheap PL-259's do not have a record of exploding. I
learned during my engineering career that quality is built-in by the
manufacturing process. You may find a good Chinese battery, but it may
take a few explosions/fires before you do.

I'm glad he's OK.

73,

Fred K6DGW
- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the 50th Running of the Cal QSO Party 3-4 Oct 2015
- www.cqp.org

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David Gilbert

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Al Gulseth-2

That's the part lots of people here don't seem to understand. There is
inherent jeopardy in having lots of stored energy in a small volume,
coupled with a low enough internal resistance that allows very high
current to flow in either direction ... both of which are the case for
Li-ion batteries. All reputable Li-ion batteries have control circuitry
that limits charge/discharge levels to reasonable levels. If that
circuitry goes bad, or doesn't exist in the first place, bad things can
happen. It's the nature of the beast, and isn't limited to Li-ion
batteries. Put enough energy into a small enough space and we have the
potential equivalent of a bomb, period.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/10/2014 6:20 PM, Al Gulseth wrote:

There are downsides to packing more and more energy into smaller spaces.

73, Al

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Bill Turner-2

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Al Gulseth-2

------------ ORIGINAL MESSAGE ------------(may be snipped)

On Wed, 10 Dec 2014 19:20:35 -0600, you wrote:

>
>Glad you weren't hurt - whew! It might be a good idea to report your
>experience to the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

REPLY:

I was just about to suggest that myself. Please don't let this go
unreported.

73, Bill W6WRT
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David Gilbert

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

In reply to this post by Millerhill

Agree.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

In fact, I just ordered one to use externally with my K1 for some
planned future Summits-On-The-Air activities.

73,
Dave AB7E

On 12/10/2014 9:08 PM, Steve Roberts wrote:
> Life-PO is the only way to go
>
>

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Barry

Re: Being cautious around Li-Ion Batteries

Don't blame the technology. Blame the poor manufacturing process and the lack of quality control so rampant in China. Remember the Chinese drywall that was shipped to Florida and emitted toxic gasses? Would you tell people not to use drywall in their homes? Remember the Chinese pet food that killed a lot of cats and dogs?

A Tesla Model S has 7000 Li ion batteries in it. They aren't blowing up (OK, there was one fire 2-3 years ago in a Tesla that ran over a metal spike which punctured the battery compartment.)

Barry W2UP