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"Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

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jsrobbins

"Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

John,

Could you be more specific about your process for "bit image backup" and
"safe sectors"? Program you use? What files you choose to backup? Whether
Windows Restore program is or is not a suitable substitute? Thanks.

73,

Jim Robbins

N1JR

"It is vitally important to practice "safe sectors." A bit image backup
takes only a few minutes, and can be made on an auxiliary hard drive or a
jump drive."

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John Ragle

Re: "Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

Hi, Jim...

There are several programs that make literal copies (mirror copies)
of disk contents. This includes the OS and all program files as well as
data...

I happen to have been using one called "Macrium Reflect
Professional" for the last few years. It produces a bit-for-bit literal
image (a mirror copy) of the TOTAL contents of one or more hard drives,
and can re-load such images. It does much more than copy data files. At
present, I am using a PC with 2 inboard hard drives, each of 250 GB
capacity. One of these is my WIN7 Ultimate OS and associated files
(including programs, etc), and is about 80 GB in total content. The
second is my Ubuntu 11.10 OS and a somewhat smaller collection of files
(including programs, etc.) I back up the former almost daily onto a 1 TB
external USB hard drive, and somewhat less frequently onto a Sandisk 64
GB stick...the 80 GB on the C:\ drive fit nicely onto the 64 GB stick
with the compression used by Macrium. The rate-determining step in these
USB-based devices is the USB transfer rate itself; 80 GB takes about 25
minutes to back or restore, and I do it last thing at night, letting
Macrium close down the PC when finished.

If I had a third drive bay, I would probably choose to back up onto
a third drive...hard drives have become so inexpensive that you can
practically use them like floppy drives. This would be significantly
faster, about 10-12 minutes for the 80 GB contents of C:\

A while ago, I used a Sparc 20 with a shoebox tape drive and "DAT
Tapes," but that had little to do with my ham radio operation. These
were unsatisfactory because the error rate was significant. I also tried
using an elderly PC as a network server at home on our LAN. That too was
somewhat cumbersome. My wife is an active software developer (vide the
"OWL" system from Cengage), and separately uses a version of Macrium
onto a 1 TB external drive, but much of her work is stored on a
corporate "cloud," and hopefully backed up there as well.

I do not have a high opinion of "Windows Restore" -- it is
significantly more involved to use than is Macrium Reflect.

An advantage (to me the most significant one) of doing a bit-image
backup is that when it comes time to restore program files (i.e. .exe
files, etc), one does not have to search out the distribution media and
play "baking cookies" with those media for hours to rebuild the system.

A disadvantage of doing a bit-image backup is that in the absence
of good "garbage collection" one keeps using the same general structure
over and over again...a case can be made for rebuilding from scratch
(not from the bit image) on a regular basis...some have suggested once a
year, at least.

The Linux crowd can tell you of several useful Linux based
utilities for total backup, restore, partitioning, etc...I won't
enumerate them here, though many of them are very useful.

In general, I don't favor running anything off the "cloud." My ISP
is sometimes down for 1 or more hours, and that mode of dis-operation
would leave me in the cold. Moreover, in view of the spate of successful
hacking attacks, I don't trust cloud security. If I disconnect from the
internet, the only ways someone can hack me are via my WiFi or to
physically break into my home. I have taken pains to barricade the
former. The latter takes care of itself in the usual way.

Hope this answers your questions....

John Ragle -- W1ZI

=====

On 5/22/2012 12:59 PM, James Robbins wrote:

> John,
>
>
>
> Could you be more specific about your process for "bit image backup" and
> "safe sectors"? Program you use? What files you choose to backup? Whether
> Windows Restore program is or is not a suitable substitute? Thanks.
>
>
>
> 73,
>
> Jim Robbins
>
> N1JR
>
>
>
> "It is vitally important to practice "safe sectors." A bit image backup
> takes only a few minutes, and can be made on an auxiliary hard drive or a
> jump drive."
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
>
>

--
Sent from my lovely old Dell XPS 420

______________________________________________________________
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Dave Hachadorian

Re: "Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

> There are several programs that make literal copies (mirror
> copies)
>of disk contents. This includes the OS and all program files as
>well as
>data...

> I happen to have been using one called "Macrium Reflect
>Professional" for the last few years. It produces a bit-for-bit
>literal
>image (a mirror copy) of the TOTAL contents of one or more hard
>drives,
>and can re-load such images.

I use the FREE version of Macrium Reflect, which seems to do all
of the essential things that the Pro version does. I back up all
of the five computers in the house every now and then onto a
portable USB hard drive. I tried doing this over the home
network, but carrying the portable hard drive around to each
individual computers turned out to be easier for me. I haven't
had to restore a whole hard drive yet, but I have retrieved
individual files from the hard drive image, just to prove to
myself that it does work. I have also verified that the bootable
"rescue" CD does bring up the appropriate menus for system or
file restoration. This is one of those deals that you hope you
never have to use.

Dave Hachadorian, K6LL
Yuma, Arizona

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Mike Reublin

Re: "Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

In reply to this post by jsrobbins

I use Acronis True Image on the Win box. It's saved my bacon a couple of
times.
The Mac comes with Time Machine, which takes a backup every hour.

73, Mike NF4L

On 5/22/12 12:59 PM, James Robbins wrote:

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Jack Brindle-2

Re: "Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

In reply to this post by John Ragle

John;

Be very careful with a sector-by-sector backup utility if you decide
to use an SSD. Solid State Drives constantly are moving sector
locations around in order to avoid writing to the same flash location
too many times. This occurs whenever a file needs to be updated or
rewritten, and is especially true of the directory sectors. Because of
this a backup may catch a file relocation in mid move, or more often
catch a directory update while it is being moved, The result will be a
completely useless backup. We discovered this recently when a friend
needed to restore his system from a backup.

The answer is to use a normal file-oriented backup instead of a sector-
by-sector backup. Those backups are very much useful when needed. With
the trend to replace disks with SSDs, especially in laptops, this will
become very important.

For those wondering, TIme Machine is indeed a file backup and not
sector-by-sector. I recommend it whole heartedly!

Jack Brindle, W6FB

On May 22, 2012, at 11:22 AM, John Ragle wrote:

> Hi, Jim...
>
> There are several programs that make literal copies (mirror
> copies)
> of disk contents. This includes the OS and all program files as well
> as
> data...
>
> I happen to have been using one called "Macrium Reflect
> Professional" for the last few years. It produces a bit-for-bit
> literal
> image (a mirror copy) of the TOTAL contents of one or more hard
> drives,
> and can re-load such images. It does much more than copy data files.
> At
> present, I am using a PC with 2 inboard hard drives, each of 250 GB
> capacity. One of these is my WIN7 Ultimate OS and associated files
> (including programs, etc), and is about 80 GB in total content. The
> second is my Ubuntu 11.10 OS and a somewhat smaller collection of
> files
> (including programs, etc.) I back up the former almost daily onto a
> 1 TB
> external USB hard drive, and somewhat less frequently onto a Sandisk
> 64
> GB stick...the 80 GB on the C:\ drive fit nicely onto the 64 GB stick
> with the compression used by Macrium. The rate-determining step in
> these
> USB-based devices is the USB transfer rate itself; 80 GB takes about
> 25
> minutes to back or restore, and I do it last thing at night, letting
> Macrium close down the PC when finished.
>
> If I had a third drive bay, I would probably choose to back up
> onto
> a third drive...hard drives have become so inexpensive that you can
> practically use them like floppy drives. This would be significantly
> faster, about 10-12 minutes for the 80 GB contents of C:\
>
> A while ago, I used a Sparc 20 with a shoebox tape drive and "DAT
> Tapes," but that had little to do with my ham radio operation. These
> were unsatisfactory because the error rate was significant. I also
> tried
> using an elderly PC as a network server at home on our LAN. That too
> was
> somewhat cumbersome. My wife is an active software developer (vide the
> "OWL" system from Cengage), and separately uses a version of Macrium
> onto a 1 TB external drive, but much of her work is stored on a
> corporate "cloud," and hopefully backed up there as well.
>
> I do not have a high opinion of "Windows Restore" -- it is
> significantly more involved to use than is Macrium Reflect.
>
> An advantage (to me the most significant one) of doing a bit-image
> backup is that when it comes time to restore program files (i.e. .exe
> files, etc), one does not have to search out the distribution media
> and
> play "baking cookies" with those media for hours to rebuild the
> system.
>
> A disadvantage of doing a bit-image backup is that in the absence
> of good "garbage collection" one keeps using the same general
> structure
> over and over again...a case can be made for rebuilding from scratch
> (not from the bit image) on a regular basis...some have suggested
> once a
> year, at least.
>
> The Linux crowd can tell you of several useful Linux based
> utilities for total backup, restore, partitioning, etc...I won't
> enumerate them here, though many of them are very useful.
>
> In general, I don't favor running anything off the "cloud." My ISP
> is sometimes down for 1 or more hours, and that mode of dis-operation
> would leave me in the cold. Moreover, in view of the spate of
> successful
> hacking attacks, I don't trust cloud security. If I disconnect from
> the
> internet, the only ways someone can hack me are via my WiFi or to
> physically break into my home. I have taken pains to barricade the
> former. The latter takes care of itself in the usual way.
>
> Hope this answers your questions....
>
> John Ragle -- W1ZI
>
> =====
>
> On 5/22/2012 12:59 PM, James Robbins wrote:
>> John,
>>
>>
>>
>> Could you be more specific about your process for "bit image
>> backup" and
>> "safe sectors"? Program you use? What files you choose to
>> backup? Whether
>> Windows Restore program is or is not a suitable substitute? Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> Jim Robbins
>>
>> N1JR
>>
>>
>>
>> "It is vitally important to practice "safe sectors." A bit image
>> backup
>> takes only a few minutes, and can be made on an auxiliary hard
>> drive or a
>> jump drive."
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> Sent from my lovely old Dell XPS 420
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Jessie Oberreuter-2

Re: "Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

Whenever I truly need a "sector by sector" backup, I boot a
stand-alone linux image and use 'dd' to copy the data directly from the
raw device. -kb7psg

On Tue, 22 May 2012, Jack Brindle wrote:

> John;
>
> Be very careful with a sector-by-sector backup utility if you decide
> to use an SSD. Solid State Drives constantly are moving sector
> locations around in order to avoid writing to the same flash location
> too many times. This occurs whenever a file needs to be updated or
> rewritten, and is especially true of the directory sectors. Because of
> this a backup may catch a file relocation in mid move, or more often
> catch a directory update while it is being moved, The result will be a
> completely useless backup. We discovered this recently when a friend
> needed to restore his system from a backup.
>
> The answer is to use a normal file-oriented backup instead of a sector-
> by-sector backup. Those backups are very much useful when needed. With
> the trend to replace disks with SSDs, especially in laptops, this will
> become very important.
>
> For those wondering, TIme Machine is indeed a file backup and not
> sector-by-sector. I recommend it whole heartedly!
>
> Jack Brindle, W6FB
>
>
> On May 22, 2012, at 11:22 AM, John Ragle wrote:
>
>> Hi, Jim...
>>
>> There are several programs that make literal copies (mirror
>> copies)
>> of disk contents. This includes the OS and all program files as well
>> as
>> data...
>>
>> I happen to have been using one called "Macrium Reflect
>> Professional" for the last few years. It produces a bit-for-bit
>> literal
>> image (a mirror copy) of the TOTAL contents of one or more hard
>> drives,
>> and can re-load such images. It does much more than copy data files.
>> At
>> present, I am using a PC with 2 inboard hard drives, each of 250 GB
>> capacity. One of these is my WIN7 Ultimate OS and associated files
>> (including programs, etc), and is about 80 GB in total content. The
>> second is my Ubuntu 11.10 OS and a somewhat smaller collection of
>> files
>> (including programs, etc.) I back up the former almost daily onto a
>> 1 TB
>> external USB hard drive, and somewhat less frequently onto a Sandisk
>> 64
>> GB stick...the 80 GB on the C:\ drive fit nicely onto the 64 GB stick
>> with the compression used by Macrium. The rate-determining step in
>> these
>> USB-based devices is the USB transfer rate itself; 80 GB takes about
>> 25
>> minutes to back or restore, and I do it last thing at night, letting
>> Macrium close down the PC when finished.
>>
>> If I had a third drive bay, I would probably choose to back up
>> onto
>> a third drive...hard drives have become so inexpensive that you can
>> practically use them like floppy drives. This would be significantly
>> faster, about 10-12 minutes for the 80 GB contents of C:\
>>
>> A while ago, I used a Sparc 20 with a shoebox tape drive and "DAT
>> Tapes," but that had little to do with my ham radio operation. These
>> were unsatisfactory because the error rate was significant. I also
>> tried
>> using an elderly PC as a network server at home on our LAN. That too
>> was
>> somewhat cumbersome. My wife is an active software developer (vide the
>> "OWL" system from Cengage), and separately uses a version of Macrium
>> onto a 1 TB external drive, but much of her work is stored on a
>> corporate "cloud," and hopefully backed up there as well.
>>
>> I do not have a high opinion of "Windows Restore" -- it is
>> significantly more involved to use than is Macrium Reflect.
>>
>> An advantage (to me the most significant one) of doing a bit-image
>> backup is that when it comes time to restore program files (i.e. .exe
>> files, etc), one does not have to search out the distribution media
>> and
>> play "baking cookies" with those media for hours to rebuild the
>> system.
>>
>> A disadvantage of doing a bit-image backup is that in the absence
>> of good "garbage collection" one keeps using the same general
>> structure
>> over and over again...a case can be made for rebuilding from scratch
>> (not from the bit image) on a regular basis...some have suggested
>> once a
>> year, at least.
>>
>> The Linux crowd can tell you of several useful Linux based
>> utilities for total backup, restore, partitioning, etc...I won't
>> enumerate them here, though many of them are very useful.
>>
>> In general, I don't favor running anything off the "cloud." My ISP
>> is sometimes down for 1 or more hours, and that mode of dis-operation
>> would leave me in the cold. Moreover, in view of the spate of
>> successful
>> hacking attacks, I don't trust cloud security. If I disconnect from
>> the
>> internet, the only ways someone can hack me are via my WiFi or to
>> physically break into my home. I have taken pains to barricade the
>> former. The latter takes care of itself in the usual way.
>>
>> Hope this answers your questions....
>>
>> John Ragle -- W1ZI
>>
>> =====
>>
>> On 5/22/2012 12:59 PM, James Robbins wrote:
>>> John,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Could you be more specific about your process for "bit image
>>> backup" and
>>> "safe sectors"? Program you use? What files you choose to
>>> backup? Whether
>>> Windows Restore program is or is not a suitable substitute? Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 73,
>>>
>>> Jim Robbins
>>>
>>> N1JR
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "It is vitally important to practice "safe sectors." A bit image
>>> backup
>>> takes only a few minutes, and can be made on an auxiliary hard
>>> drive or a
>>> jump drive."
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list
>>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from my lovely old Dell XPS 420
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Brendan Minish

Re: "Bit image backup": "Safe sectors"

In reply to this post by Jack Brindle-2

dd or dd_rescue copies of SSD's are fine and no problem.
The controllers hide all the fancy wear levelling stuff from the
computer and present a disk that to the OS looks just line any other
sata hard disk.

dd_rescue is a variant of the linux dd utility which can deal with disks
that ate not 100% healthy
see
http://www.garloff.de/kurt/linux/ddrescue/

you will find dd and dd_rescue along with a bunch of other useful tools
for copying partitions/disks on the knoppix distribution which is a
bootable 'live cd' or can be used from a USB stick

http://knoppix.net/

Trinity rescue kit is supposed to be very good too

http://trinityhome.org/Home/index.php?wpid=1&front_id=12

On Tue, 2012-05-22 at 15:03 -0700, Jack Brindle wrote:

> John;
>
> Be very careful with a sector-by-sector backup utility if you decide
> to use an SSD. Solid State Drives constantly are moving sector
> locations around in order to avoid writing to the same flash location
> too many times. This occurs whenever a file needs to be updated or
> rewritten, and is especially true of the directory sectors. Because of
> this a backup may catch a file relocation in mid move, or more often
> catch a directory update while it is being moved, The result will be a
> completely useless backup. We discovered this recently when a friend
> needed to restore his system from a backup.
>
> The answer is to use a normal file-oriented backup instead of a sector-
> by-sector backup. Those backups are very much useful when needed. With
> the trend to replace disks with SSDs, especially in laptops, this will
> become very important.
>
> For those wondering, TIme Machine is indeed a file backup and not
> sector-by-sector. I recommend it whole heartedly!
>
> Jack Brindle, W6FB
>
>
> On May 22, 2012, at 11:22 AM, John Ragle wrote:
>
> > Hi, Jim...
> >
> > There are several programs that make literal copies (mirror
> > copies)
> > of disk contents. This includes the OS and all program files as well
> > as
> > data...
> >
> > I happen to have been using one called "Macrium Reflect
> > Professional" for the last few years. It produces a bit-for-bit
> > literal
> > image (a mirror copy) of the TOTAL contents of one or more hard
> > drives,
> > and can re-load such images. It does much more than copy data files.
> > At
> > present, I am using a PC with 2 inboard hard drives, each of 250 GB
> > capacity. One of these is my WIN7 Ultimate OS and associated files
> > (including programs, etc), and is about 80 GB in total content. The
> > second is my Ubuntu 11.10 OS and a somewhat smaller collection of
> > files
> > (including programs, etc.) I back up the former almost daily onto a
> > 1 TB
> > external USB hard drive, and somewhat less frequently onto a Sandisk
> > 64
> > GB stick...the 80 GB on the C:\ drive fit nicely onto the 64 GB stick
> > with the compression used by Macrium. The rate-determining step in
> > these
> > USB-based devices is the USB transfer rate itself; 80 GB takes about
> > 25
> > minutes to back or restore, and I do it last thing at night, letting
> > Macrium close down the PC when finished.
> >
> > If I had a third drive bay, I would probably choose to back up
> > onto
> > a third drive...hard drives have become so inexpensive that you can
> > practically use them like floppy drives. This would be significantly
> > faster, about 10-12 minutes for the 80 GB contents of C:\
> >
> > A while ago, I used a Sparc 20 with a shoebox tape drive and "DAT
> > Tapes," but that had little to do with my ham radio operation. These
> > were unsatisfactory because the error rate was significant. I also
> > tried
> > using an elderly PC as a network server at home on our LAN. That too
> > was
> > somewhat cumbersome. My wife is an active software developer (vide the
> > "OWL" system from Cengage), and separately uses a version of Macrium
> > onto a 1 TB external drive, but much of her work is stored on a
> > corporate "cloud," and hopefully backed up there as well.
> >
> > I do not have a high opinion of "Windows Restore" -- it is
> > significantly more involved to use than is Macrium Reflect.
> >
> > An advantage (to me the most significant one) of doing a bit-image
> > backup is that when it comes time to restore program files (i.e. .exe
> > files, etc), one does not have to search out the distribution media
> > and
> > play "baking cookies" with those media for hours to rebuild the
> > system.
> >
> > A disadvantage of doing a bit-image backup is that in the absence
> > of good "garbage collection" one keeps using the same general
> > structure
> > over and over again...a case can be made for rebuilding from scratch
> > (not from the bit image) on a regular basis...some have suggested
> > once a
> > year, at least.
> >
> > The Linux crowd can tell you of several useful Linux based
> > utilities for total backup, restore, partitioning, etc...I won't
> > enumerate them here, though many of them are very useful.
> >
> > In general, I don't favor running anything off the "cloud." My ISP
> > is sometimes down for 1 or more hours, and that mode of dis-operation
> > would leave me in the cold. Moreover, in view of the spate of
> > successful
> > hacking attacks, I don't trust cloud security. If I disconnect from
> > the
> > internet, the only ways someone can hack me are via my WiFi or to
> > physically break into my home. I have taken pains to barricade the
> > former. The latter takes care of itself in the usual way.
> >
> > Hope this answers your questions....
> >
> > John Ragle -- W1ZI
> >
> > =====
> >
> > On 5/22/2012 12:59 PM, James Robbins wrote:
> >> John,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Could you be more specific about your process for "bit image
> >> backup" and
> >> "safe sectors"? Program you use? What files you choose to
> >> backup? Whether
> >> Windows Restore program is or is not a suitable substitute? Thanks.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 73,
> >>
> >> Jim Robbins
> >>
> >> N1JR
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> "It is vitally important to practice "safe sectors." A bit image
> >> backup
> >> takes only a few minutes, and can be made on an auxiliary hard
> >> drive or a
> >> jump drive."
> >>
> >> ______________________________________________________________
> >> Elecraft mailing list
> >> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> >> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> >> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >>
> >> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> >> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Sent from my lovely old Dell XPS 420
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
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Brendan EI6IZ

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