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CW Sidetone

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Tobyp

CW Sidetone

I know I have heard that some want the cw side tone to work like it does, but I have never heard why?

You set the sidetone to a certain frequency and the volume never changes. It is not tied to the AF gain like most rigs.

I notice I have had to change the side tone when going from headphones to speaker. Perhaps some impedence issue there, but my phones are louder than my speaker requiring constant adjusting of the sidetone.

Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the sidetone volume, why not the K3?

Toby W4CAK

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: CW Sidetone

> Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the
> sidetone volume, why not the K3?

Among other reasons, many top lowband and weak signal operators
disable AGC, turn the AF gain to nearly full and control the
volume using the RF gain. This procedure optimizes signal to
noise ratio in high ambient noise conditions.

If the sidetone (or monitor) were tied to the AF Gain control
it would be excessively loud - potentially to the point of
damaging hearing. Providing an independent, front panel adjustment
of the sidetone/monitor is the appropriate approach to maximize
user flexibility.

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/26/2010 8:37 PM, Toby Pennington wrote:

> I know I have heard that some want the cw side tone to work like it
> does, but I have never heard why?
>
> You set the sidetone to a certain frequency and the volume never
> changes. It is not tied to the AF gain like most rigs.
>
> I notice I have had to change the side tone when going from
> headphones to speaker. Perhaps some impedence issue there, but my
> phones are louder than my speaker requiring constant adjusting of the
> sidetone.
>
> Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the
> sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>
> Toby W4CAK
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list Home:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
> mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Tobyp

Re: CW Sidetone

Joe, thanks for the explanation. I am not a weak signal operator and just
a rag chewer on cw. I QSO anyone I can hear, weak or strong but have
never tried this approach.

IF an op runs this way all the time then I can understand why he would want
to set the sidetone to a dull roar. On the other hand, It would be nice to
have the option of having the sidetone track the AF gain for those of us who
are casual ops and then we would not have to continually be adjusting the
side tone when going from headphones to speaker.

Toby W4CAK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
To: "Toby Pennington" <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Reflector"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone

>
>
> > Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the
> > sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>
> Among other reasons, many top lowband and weak signal operators
> disable AGC, turn the AF gain to nearly full and control the
> volume using the RF gain. This procedure optimizes signal to
> noise ratio in high ambient noise conditions.
>
> If the sidetone (or monitor) were tied to the AF Gain control
> it would be excessively loud - potentially to the point of
> damaging hearing. Providing an independent, front panel adjustment
> of the sidetone/monitor is the appropriate approach to maximize
> user flexibility.
>
> 73,
>
> ... Joe, W4TV
>
> On 5/26/2010 8:37 PM, Toby Pennington wrote:
>> I know I have heard that some want the cw side tone to work like it
>> does, but I have never heard why?
>>
>> You set the sidetone to a certain frequency and the volume never
>> changes. It is not tied to the AF gain like most rigs.
>>
>> I notice I have had to change the side tone when going from
>> headphones to speaker. Perhaps some impedence issue there, but my
>> phones are louder than my speaker requiring constant adjusting of the
>> sidetone.
>>
>> Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the
>> sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>>
>> Toby W4CAK
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list Home:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
>> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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18:26:00

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Joe Subich, W4TV-4

Re: CW Sidetone

> It would be nice to have the option of having the sidetone track
> the AF gain for those of us who are casual ops and then we would
> not have to continually be adjusting the side tone when going
> from headphones to speaker.

That is a matter of the relative efficiency of your headphones and
speaker. I find no need to adjust sidetone level when moving from
headphones (Yamaha CM-500) to speakers (Sony B-1000 bookshelf
speakers).

73,

... Joe, W4TV

On 5/26/2010 9:24 PM, Toby Pennington wrote:

> Joe, thanks for the explanation. I am not a weak signal operator and
> just a rag chewer on cw. I QSO anyone I can hear, weak or strong but
> have never tried this approach.
>
> IF an op runs this way all the time then I can understand why he would
> want to set the sidetone to a dull roar. On the other hand, It would be
> nice to have the option of having the sidetone track the AF gain for
> those of us who are casual ops and then we would not have to continually
> be adjusting the side tone when going from headphones to speaker.
>
> Toby W4CAK
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Subich, W4TV" <[hidden email]>
> To: "Toby Pennington" <[hidden email]>; "Elecraft Reflector"
> <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
>
>
>>
>>
>> > Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the
>> > sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>>
>> Among other reasons, many top lowband and weak signal operators
>> disable AGC, turn the AF gain to nearly full and control the
>> volume using the RF gain. This procedure optimizes signal to
>> noise ratio in high ambient noise conditions.
>>
>> If the sidetone (or monitor) were tied to the AF Gain control
>> it would be excessively loud - potentially to the point of
>> damaging hearing. Providing an independent, front panel adjustment
>> of the sidetone/monitor is the appropriate approach to maximize
>> user flexibility.
>>
>> 73,
>>
>> ... Joe, W4TV
>>
>> On 5/26/2010 8:37 PM, Toby Pennington wrote:
>>> I know I have heard that some want the cw side tone to work like it
>>> does, but I have never heard why?
>>>
>>> You set the sidetone to a certain frequency and the volume never
>>> changes. It is not tied to the AF gain like most rigs.
>>>
>>> I notice I have had to change the side tone when going from
>>> headphones to speaker. Perhaps some impedence issue there, but my
>>> phones are louder than my speaker requiring constant adjusting of the
>>> sidetone.
>>>
>>> Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to the
>>> sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>>>
>>> Toby W4CAK
>>>
>>> ______________________________________________________________
>>> Elecraft mailing list Home:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft Help:
>>> http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm Post:
>>> mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net Please help support this
>>> email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.5.437 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2898 - Release Date: 05/26/10
> 18:26:00
>
>

ka9zap

Re: CW Sidetone

I have my menu setting for both internal speaker and headphones, I have
a small wire stereo plug
with a right angle plugged in all the time the small stereo wire lead
goes back under the radio
and connects to a cable that comes out under the operating table where I
remove and
plug in my head phones this saves the ware and tear of the jack on the
K3 and keeps the
clutter in front of the radio down to nothing I do the same with the mic
input folding the
cable under the radio and out the back.

I find the difference to my head phones a small annoyance as I need to
adjust for loudness
turn it down each time I put on the head phones. My headphones are the
Snenheiser HD 280 pro
compared to the internal speaker the headphones have much more gain.

Part of this annoyance is the fact the room noise is less with the head
phones on the moni needs
to be up a lot for internal speaker usage for me.Tracking the side tone
is not a thing I would want
I need to get some external speakers going, I just don't have the
room for them so I use the
internal speaker.

I still have the Alpha Delta speaker with the amp in it which was what I
used for ten years or
more on my Yaesu hf radios now the K3 sits in its place on top of my
FT2000 DMU
U-tuning kit radio which has not been used but 3 times to transmit since
the born on date of
June 13 09 of my K3 guess the solution is to sell the Yaesu to make
room take a bath on cost and
put the Alpha Delta speaker back in use that would fix the moni loudness
issue.

For the reasons posted running with the AGC off I would not want the
function to change over
either.

Regards
Art
ka9zap

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W8JI

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by Tobyp

Toby,

For me, sidetone or monitor level linked to volume setting
is very distasteful. Depending on the signal to noise ratio
and the type of noise or signal, I'm always fiddling with
the volume. I pretty much always want one sidetone or
monitor level, and want it independent of volume.

The only case I can think of where I might want level linked
to volume is where I might have a poorly implemented setup
with grossly different levels in speaker or headset. I don't
have that problem at all because I have a separate external
amplifier (MFJ-616) driving my speaker and I set the level
on that, while the K3 and my other radios always match the
level needed for my headphones.

As a matter of fact my headphones are always active, and
bridge off the speaker lines at a selector switch. All audio
lines are isolated with transformers.

http://www.w8ji.com/my_shack.htm

and someday I will have more at

http://www.w8ji.com/cables_and_wiring.htm

With a simple basic one radio system where I plug in
headsets I would equalize the volume in headsets with an
attenuator if they are too sensitive. I dislike having to
greatly adjust volume settings when gong from speaker to
phones.

I don't use the headphone jacks on any of my gear, I use the
speaker outputs for everything. I have a switch the cuts the
speaker in and out and the headphones are always on.

I think this is one of the half the people want it one way,
half the other issues. It is very easy to build an
attenuator or put a little effort into the speaker and
headphone system, and there is no need to grossly change
audio levels on sidetone.

73 Tom

----- Original Message -----
From: "Toby Pennington" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:37 PM
Subject: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone

>I know I have heard that some want the cw side tone to
>work like it does, but I have never heard why?
>
> You set the sidetone to a certain frequency and the volume
> never changes. It is not tied to the AF gain like most
> rigs.
>
> I notice I have had to change the side tone when going
> from headphones to speaker. Perhaps some impedence issue
> there, but my phones are louder than my speaker requiring
> constant adjusting of the sidetone.
>
> Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to
> the sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>
> Toby W4CAK
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list:
> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Steve Ellington

Re: CW Sidetone

This issue has been debated many times on the reflector and both parties
have their points.
In my opinion, the K3 has it right BUT I need the sidetone level to be
available at all times during cw operation without push/hold/tone. The
steady tone thing drives me crazy if I'm in a QSO and need to change level.
The pitch adjustment with it's steady tone also bugs me but I've gotten used
to this. Now I'm permanetly crazy!
Steve
N4LQ
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
To: "Toby Pennington" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone

> Toby,
>
> For me, sidetone or monitor level linked to volume setting
> is very distasteful. Depending on the signal to noise ratio
> and the type of noise or signal, I'm always fiddling with
> the volume. I pretty much always want one sidetone or
> monitor level, and want it independent of volume.
>
> The only case I can think of where I might want level linked
> to volume is where I might have a poorly implemented setup
> with grossly different levels in speaker or headset. I don't
> have that problem at all because I have a separate external
> amplifier (MFJ-616) driving my speaker and I set the level
> on that, while the K3 and my other radios always match the
> level needed for my headphones.
>
> As a matter of fact my headphones are always active, and
> bridge off the speaker lines at a selector switch. All audio
> lines are isolated with transformers.
>
> http://www.w8ji.com/my_shack.htm
>
> and someday I will have more at
>
> http://www.w8ji.com/cables_and_wiring.htm
>
> With a simple basic one radio system where I plug in
> headsets I would equalize the volume in headsets with an
> attenuator if they are too sensitive. I dislike having to
> greatly adjust volume settings when gong from speaker to
> phones.
>
> I don't use the headphone jacks on any of my gear, I use the
> speaker outputs for everything. I have a switch the cuts the
> speaker in and out and the headphones are always on.
>
> I think this is one of the half the people want it one way,
> half the other issues. It is very easy to build an
> attenuator or put a little effort into the speaker and
> headphone system, and there is no need to grossly change
> audio levels on sidetone.
>
> 73 Tom
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Toby Pennington" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:37 PM
> Subject: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
>
>
>>I know I have heard that some want the cw side tone to
>>work like it does, but I have never heard why?
>>
>> You set the sidetone to a certain frequency and the volume
>> never changes. It is not tied to the AF gain like most
>> rigs.
>>
>> I notice I have had to change the side tone when going
>> from headphones to speaker. Perhaps some impedence issue
>> there, but my phones are louder than my speaker requiring
>> constant adjusting of the sidetone.
>>
>> Several modern rigs I have owned have the AF gain tied to
>> the sidetone volume, why not the K3?
>>
>> Toby W4CAK
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list:
>> http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Tobyp

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by W8JI

Tom, I believe you are on so something the way you have your audio wired
up.

Thanks very much for detailed information and pictures of the way you do
things at you QTH.

I am not using such an elaborate sound system, just running the headphones
direct into the rig. Speakers are SP 20 Icom and the other is a Ten Tec
307B. Using this method of plugging the headphones into the pnones jack,
and using the speaker in put on the rig for output, there is definitely an
audio problem when going from phones to speaker which requires and
adjustment of the sidetone. Another way around this is to have an MFJ 784B
tunable filter and use it for both both phones and speakers. This way the
volume comtrol on the MFJ unit will equalize all audio and it will work the
way I would like it to.

Many thanks for your input!

Toby W4CAK

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom W8JI" <[hidden email]>
To: "Toby Pennington" <[hidden email]>; <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 6:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone

W8JI

Re: CW Sidetone

> I am not using such an elaborate sound system, just
> running the headphones direct into the rig. Speakers are
> SP 20 Icom and the other is a Ten Tec 307B. Using this
> method of plugging the headphones into the pnones jack,
> and using the speaker in put on the rig for output, there
> is definitely an audio problem when going from phones to
> speaker which requires and adjustment of the sidetone.
> Another way around this is to have an MFJ 784B tunable
> filter and use it for both both phones and speakers.
> This way the volume comtrol on the MFJ unit will equalize
> all audio and it will work the way I would like it to.

Hi Toby,

Because I use stereo diversity, I also have a set of 784 DSP
filters in stereo. The frequency and passband controls in
one adjust both. I used them primarily with my stereo
modified R4C's, so the DSP filters follow my heavily
modified R4C's around.

Whether I use the 784's or not, I still mix left and right
ears into mono because I only have a single speaker. This
led me to discover an interesting phase effect combining two
receivers into one channel when the receivers shared the
same oscillators. When using two antennas that have wide
spatial separation, and by changing phase lag or lead
between the two channels (either at RF or at audio), a
signal can be totally nulled out or directly added.

I had a calibration chart for my antennas. I measured audio
phase difference between the channels, and by using antennas
several hundred feet apart I could resolve a difference in
direction of a few degrees. It was easy to resolve the
difference between eastern and western Massachusetts from
here in Georgia. I found this very useful for locating
jammers, spurious signals from BC transmitters, or just
nulling unwanted CW signals out while still hearing other
much weaker signals on the very same frequency.

DF'ing unfortunately does not work with the K3 because the
channels rotate phase in relationship to each other as dial
frequency is changed, so DF'ing is out of the question.
Nulling signals will work, but maintaining directional
calibration is impossible. Someday someone smarter than me
will do this in firmware, where the two receivers in the K3
can be used to null a CW signal while still passing a weaker
signal on the very same frequency.

Another interesting effect is nulling one's own transmitter,
although for maximum dynamic range it has to be done at
radio frequencies. Even with limited dynamic range it is
possible to hear stronger signals while the key is
depressed. The ultimate in QSK. If done properly at radio
frequencies, it even works on SSB. I can hear stronger SSB
stations while I am transmitting on the very same frequency.
My own transmitter is S-9 or so, so I can hear anyone
stronger than S-9 on my own frequency while I am
transmitting.

There are many things that can be done with two identical
receiver channels, or with RF phasing. :-)

73 Tom

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W5UXH

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by Steve Ellington

I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point was one of the very first things that jumped out at me. I would like to be able to adjust the sidetone level easily while in qso. I could probably get used to the push/hold step if the tone was only present when I key, but having the steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with Steve. Identifying the "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of course) is best done while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a higher level of sidetone but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower level. It would be nice if I could magically remove the compression function and replace it with sidetone level (but no tone if key up). I would then leave that knob set to the "sidetone level" state except when I need to change power.

Chuck, W5UXH

<quote author="Steve Ellington">
This issue has been debated many times on the reflector and both parties
have their points.
In my opinion, the K3 has it right BUT I need the sidetone level to be
available at all times during cw operation without push/hold/tone. The
steady tone thing drives me crazy if I'm in a QSO and need to change level.
The pitch adjustment with it's steady tone also bugs me but I've gotten used
to this. Now I'm permanetly crazy!
Steve
N4LQ

The Smiths

Re: CW Sidetone

This is an easy one. Push and hold the Mon button as usual then QUICKLY tap your key down... Doing this will shut off the tone, from there you can operate the rig while adjusting the Mon "tone" level up and down. You can still move the VFO and do other things you need to at the same time incase you aren't settled on the loudness you've selected. No more annoying tone while in a qso.....

> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 06:32:04 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
>
>
> I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point was one of the very first
> things that jumped out at me. I would like to be able to adjust the
> sidetone level easily while in qso. I could probably get used to the
> push/hold step if the tone was only present when I key, but having the
> steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with Steve. Identifying the
> "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of course) is best done
> while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a higher level of sidetone
> but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower level. It would be nice if I
> could magically remove the compression function and replace it with sidetone
> level (but no tone if key up). I would then leave that knob set to the
> "sidetone level" state except when I need to change power.
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>
> This issue has been debated many times on the reflector and both parties
> have their points.
> In my opinion, the K3 has it right BUT I need the sidetone level to be
> available at all times during cw operation without push/hold/tone. The
> steady tone thing drives me crazy if I'm in a QSO and need to change level.
> The pitch adjustment with it's steady tone also bugs me but I've gotten used
> to this. Now I'm permanetly crazy!
> Steve
> N4LQ
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/CW-Sidetone-tp5106421p5542721.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

Guy, K2AV

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by W5UXH

Yes, it has been debated. But....

I've gotten used to CW REV for audio higher = frequency higher. I *CAN* set
the radio so audio freq higher = RF frequency higher on CW. I have gotten
used to making sure that logging programs reset to CW REV, not CW, so I
don't constantly have to hit MODE ALT during a contest to return to audio
freq higher = RF freq higher. And YES I DO sometimes flip to CW, open up
the bandwidth and scan higher frequency to lower frequency so that new stuff
rolls in higher to lower audio, just to get away from the crowd that is
scanning low to high frequency using their CW USB. And yes, I still think
CW USB and CW LSB is a better label, and USB is really "normal", and no, it
doesn't mean a thing to me that the K2 has a USB/LSB that flips on high
bands and IT has REV. A K2 is a K2, which is a wonderful compactness and
function with minimal parts. After all it only has15 buttons. How much can
one expect...

But I've gotten used to all the CW REV stuff.

But I've never gotten used to the K3's clunky, "stop everything in a contest
and guess the right sidetone level while the RX audio is cut off" sidetone
adjustment. It STILL bothers me and I have not found a way around it.
Actually it bothers me more now because so much other stuff has been fixed,
added, adjusted so neatly.

I've never gotten used to it, and I really don't think Elecraft has this one
right. I'm not sure how to implement it, but I need to be able to adjust
the level while I'm transmitting, while sending CW, and I need to do both
MON and PITCH without turning off RX, and it really is a by-band adjustment.
I think an option CW MON ADJ:TX ONLY to go with CW MON ADJ:NOR would do it.
Currently hitting MON in TX **cuts off the RX audio**. That makes it
useless during a contest, because I have to find a space of time when I'm
not RX OR TX. Which means the current setup is strictly
set-it-in-advance-and-live-with-it. I don't care whether "NOR" is something
I can't use. It's like CW REV. This MON adjustment clunker on the
irritating scale is more like CW with no way to do CW REV.

If one wanted to get crazy, you could just switch how it works based upon
whether the rig is in CW and has transmitted in the last second.

Can we please get this one on the list? Every time I have to come to a
complete halt to adjust sidetone level, its just like the faucet dripping in
the sink at night.

I think that the reason it is done this way and no joy yet, is because Wayne
is using code wrapped around the PITCH function code to do both that and
MON, and will have to code the blend to make it happen like an analog radio,
one of these simple-to-say-dickens-to-code things.

73, Guy.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 9:32 AM, W5UXH <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point was one of the very
> first
> things that jumped out at me. I would like to be able to adjust the
> sidetone level easily while in qso. I could probably get used to the
> push/hold step if the tone was only present when I key, but having the
> steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with Steve. Identifying the
> "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of course) is best done
> while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a higher level of sidetone
> but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower level. It would be nice if I
> could magically remove the compression function and replace it with
> sidetone
> level (but no tone if key up). I would then leave that knob set to the
> "sidetone level" state except when I need to change power.
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>

Guy, K2AV

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by The Smiths

I'm sorry, I ragged on all that time and the solution was already there.
Once again, I am correctly accused of not being able to find anything in a
PDF doc if my life depended on it. Does it work for pitch?

I already have crow pie up here from an unrelated incident. Order of the
day this week.

SRI

73, Guy.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:34 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> This is an easy one. Push and hold the Mon button as usual then QUICKLY
> tap your key down... Doing this will shut off the tone, from there you can
> operate the rig while adjusting the Mon "tone" level up and down. You can
> still move the VFO and do other things you need to at the same time incase
> you aren't settled on the loudness you've selected. No more annoying tone
> while in a qso.....
>
> > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 06:32:04 -0700
> > From: [hidden email]
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
> >
> >
> > I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point was one of the very
> first
> > things that jumped out at me. I would like to be able to adjust the
> > sidetone level easily while in qso. I could probably get used to the
> > push/hold step if the tone was only present when I key, but having the
> > steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with Steve. Identifying
> the
> > "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of course) is best done
> > while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a higher level of sidetone
> > but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower level. It would be nice if I
> > could magically remove the compression function and replace it with
> sidetone
> > level (but no tone if key up). I would then leave that knob set to the
> > "sidetone level" state except when I need to change power.
> >
> > Chuck, W5UXH
> >
> >
> > This issue has been debated many times on the reflector and both parties
> > have their points.
> > In my opinion, the K3 has it right BUT I need the sidetone level to be
> > available at all times during cw operation without push/hold/tone. The
> > steady tone thing drives me crazy if I'm in a QSO and need to change
> level.
> > The pitch adjustment with it's steady tone also bugs me but I've gotten
> used
> > to this. Now I'm permanetly crazy!
> > Steve
> > N4LQ
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/CW-Sidetone-tp5106421p5542721.html
> > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> > ______________________________________________________________
> > Elecraft mailing list
> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
> >
> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

Guy, K2AV

Re: CW Sidetone

I still can't find it in the user manual PDF. I looked at every instance of
the characters "mon". Someone know what page it's on? 73, Guy.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>wrote:

> I'm sorry, I ragged on all that time and the solution was already there.
> Once again, I am correctly accused of not being able to find anything in a
> PDF doc if my life depended on it. Does it work for pitch?
>
> I already have crow pie up here from an unrelated incident. Order of the
> day this week.
>
> SRI
>
> 73, Guy.
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:34 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>>
>> This is an easy one. Push and hold the Mon button as usual then QUICKLY
>> tap your key down... Doing this will shut off the tone, from there you can
>> operate the rig while adjusting the Mon "tone" level up and down. You can
>> still move the VFO and do other things you need to at the same time incase
>> you aren't settled on the loudness you've selected. No more annoying tone
>> while in a qso.....
>>
>> > Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 06:32:04 -0700
>> > From: [hidden email]
>> > To: [hidden email]
>> > Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
>> >
>> >
>> > I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point was one of the very
>> first
>> > things that jumped out at me. I would like to be able to adjust the
>> > sidetone level easily while in qso. I could probably get used to the
>> > push/hold step if the tone was only present when I key, but having the
>> > steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with Steve. Identifying
>> the
>> > "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of course) is best done
>> > while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a higher level of
>> sidetone
>> > but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower level. It would be nice if
>> I
>> > could magically remove the compression function and replace it with
>> sidetone
>> > level (but no tone if key up). I would then leave that knob set to the
>> > "sidetone level" state except when I need to change power.
>> >
>> > Chuck, W5UXH
>> >
>> >
>> > This issue has been debated many times on the reflector and both parties
>> > have their points.
>> > In my opinion, the K3 has it right BUT I need the sidetone level to be
>> > available at all times during cw operation without push/hold/tone. The
>> > steady tone thing drives me crazy if I'm in a QSO and need to change
>> level.
>> > The pitch adjustment with it's steady tone also bugs me but I've gotten
>> used
>> > to this. Now I'm permanetly crazy!
>> > Steve
>> > N4LQ
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/CW-Sidetone-tp5106421p5542721.html
>> > Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> > ______________________________________________________________
>> > Elecraft mailing list
>> > Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> > Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> > Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>> >
>> > This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> > Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>> ______________________________________________________________
>> Elecraft mailing list
>> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
>> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
>> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>>
>> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
>> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>>
>
>

KK7P

Re: CW Sidetone

The Tx monitoring function of the K3 works as you would probably
expect while you are transmitting. Speak in the mic, or paddle the CW,
and adjust the transmit audio level you hear with MON.

In CW mode, since the radio provides the tone and not the microphone or
line in, the selected CW pitch is generated if you activate MON while
the K3 is in Rx mode. If you start transmitting, then the Rx mode tone
will disappear if present.

Similarly, if you are transmitting in CW and want to change the sidetone
amplitude, simply HOLD the MON control to select MON adjust mode and
adjust the sidetone amplitude while you are still transmitting. The Rx
mode tone will not be generated.

73,

Lyle KK7P

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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ussv dharma

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

Guy....dont complain, I have to use usb to copy cw as the cw mode is entirely too noisy.

susan

If you don't change direction you WILL arrive exactly where you're headed!! Susan Meckley, Skipper W7KFI-mm AFA9SM USSV DHARMA

--- On Fri, 9/17/10, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
> To: "W5UXH" <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 8:17 AM
> Yes, it has been debated.
> But....
>
> I've gotten used to CW REV for audio higher = frequency
> higher. I *CAN* set
> the radio so audio freq higher = RF frequency higher on
> CW. I have gotten
> used to making sure that logging programs reset to CW REV,
> not CW, so I
> don't constantly have to hit MODE ALT during a contest to
> return to audio
> freq higher = RF freq higher. And YES I DO sometimes
> flip to CW, open up
> the bandwidth and scan higher frequency to lower frequency
> so that new stuff
> rolls in higher to lower audio, just to get away from the
> crowd that is
> scanning low to high frequency using their CW USB.
> And yes, I still think
> CW USB and CW LSB is a better label, and USB is really
> "normal", and no, it
> doesn't mean a thing to me that the K2 has a USB/LSB that
> flips on high
> bands and IT has REV. A K2 is a K2, which is a
> wonderful compactness and
> function with minimal parts. After all it only has15
> buttons. How much can
> one expect...
>
> But I've gotten used to all the CW REV stuff.
>
> But I've never gotten used to the K3's clunky, "stop
> everything in a contest
> and guess the right sidetone level while the RX audio is
> cut off" sidetone
> adjustment. It STILL bothers me and I have not found a way
> around it.
> Actually it bothers me more now because so much other stuff
> has been fixed,
> added, adjusted so neatly.
>
> I've never gotten used to it, and I really don't think
> Elecraft has this one
> right. I'm not sure how to implement it, but I need
> to be able to adjust
> the level while I'm transmitting, while sending CW, and I
> need to do both
> MON and PITCH without turning off RX, and it really is a
> by-band adjustment.
> I think an option CW MON ADJ:TX ONLY to go with CW MON
> ADJ:NOR would do it.
> Currently hitting MON in TX **cuts off the RX
> audio**. That makes it
> useless during a contest, because I have to find a space of
> time when I'm
> not RX OR TX. Which means the current setup is
> strictly
> set-it-in-advance-and-live-with-it. I don't care
> whether "NOR" is something
> I can't use. It's like CW REV. This MON adjustment
> clunker on the
> irritating scale is more like CW with no way to do CW REV.
>
> If one wanted to get crazy, you could just switch how it
> works based upon
> whether the rig is in CW and has transmitted in the last
> second.
>
> Can we please get this one on the list? Every time I
> have to come to a
> complete halt to adjust sidetone level, its just like the
> faucet dripping in
> the sink at night.
>
> I think that the reason it is done this way and no joy yet,
> is because Wayne
> is using code wrapped around the PITCH function code to do
> both that and
> MON, and will have to code the blend to make it happen like
> an analog radio,
> one of these simple-to-say-dickens-to-code things.
>
> 73, Guy.
>
> On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 9:32 AM, W5UXH <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> > I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point
> was one of the very
> > first
> > things that jumped out at me. I would like to be
> able to adjust the
> > sidetone level easily while in qso. I could
> probably get used to the
> > push/hold step if the tone was only present when I
> key, but having the
> > steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with
> Steve. Identifying the
> > "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of
> course) is best done
> > while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a
> higher level of sidetone
> > but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower
> level. It would be nice if I
> > could magically remove the compression function and
> replace it with
> > sidetone
> > level (but no tone if key up). I would then
> leave that knob set to the
> > "sidetone level" state except when I need to change
> power.
> >
> > Chuck, W5UXH
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html
>

W5UXH

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by The Smiths

Useful information, thanks. Still not exactly what I would like, but much closer. I doubt I would have stumbled on this behavior, so I'm glad I brought it up.

Chuck, W5UXH

The Smiths wrote

This is an easy one. Push and hold the Mon button as usual then QUICKLY tap your key down... Doing this will shut off the tone, from there you can operate the rig while adjusting the Mon "tone" level up and down. You can still move the VFO and do other things you need to at the same time incase you aren't settled on the loudness you've selected. No more annoying tone while in a qso.....
>

Don Wilhelm-4

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

Guy,

I don't understand why the sidetone level needs to be changed
frequently. Since with the K2 (and the K3) the sidetone level does not
change with the AF Gain, I simply set the sidetone level to something
comfortable, and then to zero-beat a signal, I use the AF Gain to adjust
the level of the signal audio to approximately that of the sidetone -
works better for me than continually fooling with the sidetone level.

Try it and see if you like it.

73,
Don W3FPR

On 9/17/2010 2:17 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
>
> But I've never gotten used to the K3's clunky, "stop everything in a contest
> and guess the right sidetone level while the RX audio is cut off" sidetone
> adjustment. It STILL bothers me and I have not found a way around it.
> Actually it bothers me more now because so much other stuff has been fixed,
> added, adjusted so neatly.
>
______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

The Smiths

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by Guy, K2AV

I don't know that it's in there.. there's a few things like that you won't find. That's why we're all here to answer questions for each other.

Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 14:35:07 -0400
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
CC: [hidden email]; [hidden email]

I still can't find it in the user manual PDF. I looked at every instance of the characters "mon". Someone know what page it's on? 73, Guy.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm sorry, I ragged on all that time and the solution was already there. Once again, I am correctly accused of not being able to find anything in a PDF doc if my life depended on it. Does it work for pitch?

I already have crow pie up here from an unrelated incident. Order of the day this week.

SRI

73, Guy.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 1:34 PM, The Smiths <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is an easy one. Push and hold the Mon button as usual then QUICKLY tap your key down... Doing this will shut off the tone, from there you can operate the rig while adjusting the Mon "tone" level up and down. You can still move the VFO and do other things you need to at the same time incase you aren't settled on the loudness you've selected. No more annoying tone while in a qso.....

> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 06:32:04 -0700
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone

>
>
> I just had my first qso with a K3 and Steve's point was one of the very first
> things that jumped out at me. I would like to be able to adjust the
> sidetone level easily while in qso. I could probably get used to the
> push/hold step if the tone was only present when I key, but having the
> steady tone will probably drive me crazy along with Steve. Identifying the
> "best" level for given band conditions (full qsk of course) is best done
> while sending. With lots of band noise, I need a higher level of sidetone
> but with quiet condx, I tend to want a lower level. It would be nice if I
> could magically remove the compression function and replace it with sidetone
> level (but no tone if key up). I would then leave that knob set to the
> "sidetone level" state except when I need to change power.
>
> Chuck, W5UXH
>
>
> This issue has been debated many times on the reflector and both parties
> have their points.
> In my opinion, the K3 has it right BUT I need the sidetone level to be
> available at all times during cw operation without push/hold/tone. The
> steady tone thing drives me crazy if I'm in a QSO and need to change level.
> The pitch adjustment with it's steady tone also bugs me but I've gotten used
> to this. Now I'm permanetly crazy!
> Steve
> N4LQ
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://elecraft.365791.n2.nabble.com/CW-Sidetone-tp5106421p5542721.html
> Sent from the [K3] mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html

______________________________________________________________
Elecraft mailing list
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Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
Post: mailto:[hidden email]

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The Smiths

Re: CW Sidetone

In reply to this post by Don Wilhelm-4

For myself, when I'm using headphones I keep my Sidetone Mon level at 12 - 15. However, when I use my external speakers I find that I have to set it to 45 - 50. Otherwise I just don't even hear it.
Same with AF audio.. When I'm using my phones I find that 9 o'clock is fine, yet with my speakers I have it 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock... Sure, maybe I have inefficient speakers... Or maybe the K3 audio speaker driver chip just isn't enough... In either case Guy has a VERY valid point.
I would almost suggest that there's a way to save the side tone monitor level for Speakers and Headphones.. Perhaps just as it knows you've plugged in headphones it can know to reduce the level to it's previous setting.. This would make things much easier for me...

I would just suggest to you Don that you try to keep in mind that your operating methods don't always apply to everyone else.

> Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2010 17:05:53 -0400
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> CC: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Elecraft] CW Sidetone
>
> Guy,
>
> I don't understand why the sidetone level needs to be changed
> frequently. Since with the K2 (and the K3) the sidetone level does not
> change with the AF Gain, I simply set the sidetone level to something
> comfortable, and then to zero-beat a signal, I use the AF Gain to adjust
> the level of the signal audio to approximately that of the sidetone -
> works better for me than continually fooling with the sidetone level.
>
> Try it and see if you like it.
>
> 73,
> Don W3FPR
>
> On 9/17/2010 2:17 PM, Guy Olinger K2AV wrote:
> >
> > But I've never gotten used to the K3's clunky, "stop everything in a contest
> > and guess the right sidetone level while the RX audio is cut off" sidetone
> > adjustment. It STILL bothers me and I have not found a way around it.
> > Actually it bothers me more now because so much other stuff has been fixed,
> > added, adjusted so neatly.
> >
> ______________________________________________________________
> Elecraft mailing list
> Home: http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/elecraft
> Help: http://mailman.qth.net/mmfaq.htm
> Post: mailto:[hidden email]
>
> This list hosted by: http://www.qsl.net
> Please help support this email list: http://www.qsl.net/donate.html